The Pit Mine, the LDM, Kochera and the Nugget of Truth video.

JLC Jewelry 1884.jpg
 

Amazon Forum Fav đź‘Ť

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!
somehiker said:
View attachment 1534723
Click to expand...

Nice Somehiker right there on the Cover makers of fine Quarts Jewelry.


They specialize in it, But Oro will still wonder were the process gold come from, Back then they just reached in there pockets and pulled out a coin of Gold or Silver and a few pennies to cut the mix 10k 14k ect ect

Good way to turn a twenty dollar gold piece into a hundred.

Thats how the Match Case Box was made inlays added and the gold banding, Which in the pic look to be a more rose color not sure. Just a few more pennies to do that.

looks Good For me, Thanks

babymick1
 

Levy and his partner Closed in 1881 His Partners Son took over and imported watches ect etc but never made Jewelry
of his own, But did quit well on his own, And by the 1900 census Levy's wife was listed as a widow. They shut down the
company due to health and passed shortly after.

The company restarted in 1884 but changed its name.

babymick1
 

wrmickel1 said:
Levy and his partner Closed in 1881 His Partners Son took over and imported watches ect etc but never made Jewelry
of his own, But did quit well on his own, And by the 1900 census Levy's wife was listed as a widow. They shut down the
company due to health and passed shortly after.

The company restarted in 1884 but changed its name.

babymick1
Click to expand...

You got a source for all of that Mick ??
According to the 1884 business description I posted, John Levy and Co. was FOUNDED in 1881 and was obviously doing well by 1884.
 

Last edited:
somehiker said:
From an 1884 business directory....

View attachment 1534728
Click to expand...


somehiker,

The J.L. in the inscription "from J.L. and Co. to G.H.H." has nothing to do with the John Levy Co of San Francisco.

Brownie was 100% correct in saying Gus Hirshfeld was awarded the Matchbox by JL and Co. for his outstanding work and great service to the company. Brownie just did not know, or more probably did not remember who JL and Co. were.

JL and Co. was an Arizona firm that did business in Mesa, Phoenix, Florence and Wilcox Arizona.

Among other enterprises JL and Co. was involved in Mining claims of which Gus Hirshfeld was a major contributor. The Twin Buttes Basin #2 mine and the Coarse Gold mines were just 2 of the groups successful ventures.

The Goldman brothers of Phoenix (Mercantile that bought the Dutchman Ore) and Baron Goldwater were among the several partners in the JL Co. mining ventures.

Julius Lieberman was the head of the company and a close friend of Gus Hirshfeld and the Goldman brothers.

At one time he had stores and business dealings in several Arizona communities.

Getting sidetracked by people who have no clue and make it up as they go along just tends to confuse the issues. If you want to know more about the real story PM me and I can fill in a lot of blanks.

Best,

Matthew
 

Matthew Roberts said:
somehiker,

The J.L. in the inscription "from J.L. and Co. to G.H.H." has nothing to do with the John Levy Co of San Francisco.

Brownie was 100% correct in saying Gus Hirshfeld was awarded the Matchbox by JL and Co. for his outstanding work and great service to the company. Brownie just did not know, or more probably did not remember who JL and Co. were.

JL and Co. was an Arizona firm that did business in Mesa, Phoenix, Florence and Wilcox Arizona.

Among other enterprises JL and Co. was involved in Mining claims of which Gus Hirshfeld was a major contributor. The Twin Buttes Basin #2 mine and the Coarse Gold mines were just 2 of the groups successful ventures.

The Goldman brothers of Phoenix (Mercantile that bought the Dutchman Ore) and Baron Goldwater were among the several partners in the JL Co. mining ventures.

Julius Lieberman was the head of the company and a close friend of Gus Hirshfeld and the Goldman brothers.

At one time he had stores and business dealings in several Arizona communities.

Getting sidetracked by people who have no clue and make it up as they go along just tends to confuse the issues. If you want to know more about the real story PM me and I can fill in a lot of blanks.

Best,

Matthew
Click to expand...

Thanks Matthew.
As you say, I was just looking into the proffered JL and Co. angle. Not arguing for or against it.
JL Co. Mining seems more appropriate for the inscription, since I have never heard of any maker of custom jewelry being allowed to advertise their business on pieces contracted by well to do clients. As an award however, such an inscription would be appropriate. Any idea who made the match safe ? Or the other items which D.H. (himself) owned ?

Regards:Wayne
 

Last edited:
Matthew Roberts said:
somehiker,

The J.L. in the inscription "from J.L. and Co. to G.H.H." has nothing to do with the John Levy Co of San Francisco.

Brownie was 100% correct in saying Gus Hirshfeld was awarded the Matchbox by JL and Co. for his outstanding work and great service to the company. Brownie just did not know, or more probably did not remember who JL and Co. were.

JL and Co. was an Arizona firm that did business in Mesa, Phoenix, Florence and Wilcox Arizona.

Among other enterprises JL and Co. was involved in Mining claims of which Gus Hirshfeld was a major contributor. The Twin Buttes Basin #2 mine and the Coarse Gold mines were just 2 of the groups successful ventures.

The Goldman brothers of Phoenix (Mercantile that bought the Dutchman Ore) and Baron Goldwater were among the several partners in the JL Co. mining ventures.

Julius Lieberman was the head of the company and a close friend of Gus Hirshfeld and the Goldman brothers.

At one time he had stores and business dealings in several Arizona communities.

Getting sidetracked by people who have no clue and make it up as they go along just tends to confuse the issues. If you want to know more about the real story PM me and I can fill in a lot of blanks.



Best,

Matthew
Click to expand...

Thats why he doesn't take much stock in your word perhaps

But let's forget all that, You and the current owner are buds, So let's put it to the test, you arrange The Match Box part
I'll bring the two known cases in my possession, from the JL&Company and we will do a little electronic test on the base the banding and the quarts gold inlays. It's that simple, just a few minutes is all it takes, Otherwise you are the one
who is stirring the pot.

That piece was made in San Francisco before Waltz ever passed away.

Now I could tell you what the gold base is right now, and the banding and the gold in the Quarts, because I believe it's from the same ore as the two I have on loan.

And I don't like what you are implying about me.

Just kidding I New this would piss a few people off.

I told Joe I would match wits with you all someday. Someday has Come. you feldmans Clay the Museum ect ect.

Set it up or back down


babymick1. I would trust you to respect this post with a reply,
 

Last edited:
wrmickel1,

I am not the owner of the Matchbox and have no sway over what he does or doesn't do with it so I couldn't set something up with it even if I wanted to.
And furthermore I value my friends too much to get them involved in anything with you.

If you believe the Matchbox was made in San Francisco before Waltz died I'm happy for you.
I just don't share that opinion and have detailed why my opinion is different. I never asked you to believe me.

If you wonder why people don't take you seriously or want to get involved with you, just reread your last post.

Matthew
 

I knew there would be some hardcore LDM seekers who would add a spin to the story...I really do wonder who is making it up as they go???lol
 

Matthew Roberts said:
wrmickel1,

I am not the owner of the Matchbox and have no sway over what he does or doesn't do with it so I couldn't set something up with it even if I wanted to.
And furthermore I value my friends too much to get them involved in anything with you.

If you believe the Matchbox was made in San Francisco before Waltz died I'm happy for you.
I just don't share that opinion and have detailed why my opinion is different. I never asked you to believe me.

If you wonder why people don't take you seriously or want to get involved with you, just reread your last post.

Matthew
Click to expand...
yep..mick is back on the sauce...lol
 

Matthew Roberts said:
wrmickel1,

I am not the owner of the Matchbox and have no sway over what he does or doesn't do with it so I couldn't set something up with it even if I wanted to.
And furthermore I value my friends too much to get them involved in anything with you.

If you believe the Matchbox was made in San Francisco before Waltz died I'm happy for you.
I just don't share that opinion and have detailed why my opinion is different. I never asked you to believe me.

If you wonder why people don't take you seriously or want to get involved with you, just reread your last post.

Matthew
Click to expand...

I see you chose the get out of the way plan, Good Call

But I know You Know I'm Right. You've known it for years.

A lot of you have. You Saw the case you know it's made with stock base gold. But yeah I'll choose the truth
over the pile.

No one wants to get involved with me, humm

Its a nice piece of folk Art But not what you say it is.

Gentlemen your not Sir and not a very good Steward to the ledgen.

Wayne R. Mickelson
 

Last edited:
Oroblanco said:
Sorry for having to disagree with you on that, for the statement about what company made the matchbox is SPECULATION, not fact.

I would also point out that the Holmes affidavit states that HE had it made from Waltz's ore, he didn't BUY it.

You are certainly welcome to believe or disbelieve as you choose, but the fact is Holmes swore that affidavit, and it would not make any sense at all for him to lie about it. Why not? Because Holmes had been accused of stealing the ore from Waltz. You can toss out the Holmes manuscript, but the affidavit is a different deal.

Also, there is reason to believe that Reiney Petrasch and his brother ended up with the records from Waltz. There is a letter in which it is mentioned that they were about to give up on searching for the mine, but after looking over Waltz's papers, the receipts for shipping a quarter million dollars in ore convinced the Petrasch brothers that Waltz must have had a rich mine just as he had told Reiney. I would also point out that actions speak louder than words, and the Petrasch brothers continued to search for the mine for a long time. Remember it was Reiney Petrasch that had been sent by Waltz to dig up the gold ore that was then used to help Julia Thomas save her business, so Reiney Petrasch had seen and handled the ore. If it was gold coins or bars, Reiney Petrasch would have never believed that Waltz had a rich gold mine.

You seem to ignore the point that Waltz had tried to tell his friends Julia and Reiney how to get to the mine, if it was in California then why did he point at the Superstitions and tell them the mine is there? The clear conclusion is that Julia and Reiney just didn't pay attention while Waltz was alive and then couldn't find it.

Remember also, Waltz told Reiney Petrasch, quote "Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" Unquote

I think I need more coffee.

:coffee: :coffee2:
Click to expand...

Oroblanco

Black hills Gold I'm sure you know of that, Homestake Mine, possibly have some of it. The Ring part is the hardest gold in
there pieces, The rose gold is gold and copper, The green is gold and silver there all alloy composite.
That's the best way to describe the Match Box. All is composite alloy except the quarts gold inlays, Natural

babymick1

I should know I make jewelry
 

wrmickel1 said:
Oroblanco

Black hills Gold I'm sure you know of that, Homestake Mine, possibly have some of it. The Ring part is the hardest gold in
there pieces, The rose gold is gold and copper, The green is gold and silver there all alloy composite.
That's the best way to describe the Match Box. All is composite alloy except the quarts gold inlays, Natural

babymick1

I should know I make jewelry
Click to expand...

You are certainly welcome to your opinion.

Several great posts, kudos to Matthew and Somehiker.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

:coffee2:
 

Matthew Roberts said:
nobodie,

Here is the April 1969 Brownie Holmes Affidavit describing the Dutchman ore, how it was obtained and the items crafted from that Dutchman ore.



STATE OF ARIZONA }
County of Maricopa }

BEFORE ME, J Yenerich, a Notary Public in and for the said County, State of Arizona, on this day personally appeared Mr. George B. Holmes, to me well known, and who, after being duly sworn, deposes and says that the following testimony is true to the best of his knowledge.

My name is George Holmes, often known as Brownie Holmes, of Phoenix, Arizona.

My family were Arizona pioneers. My grandfather, R. J. Holmes Sr., landed at the present site of Yuma in 1847. He was from Holmes County, Mississippi, and graduated from college at Ann Arbor, Michigan as a geologist and mineralogist. He found gold at La Paz in 1853 nearly ten years before Pauline Weaver’s “discovery”.

My father was R. J. Holmes, Jr., often known as Dick Holmes, was born at Old Fort Whipple in 1865. He ranched in Bloody Basin, where Holmes Creek and Holmes Canyon were named for him. He was a civilian packer for the Army, having packed for Al Sieber, among others. He married my mother in 1889 in Tempe. I was born in Phoenix in 1892.

My father knew Jacob Waltz, in later years known as “The Dutchman”. Waltz’ friends were convinced he was operating a hidden gold mine in the Superstition Mountains.

Following heavy rains and floods in February, 1891, in which his adobe fell, Waltz made his home with Mrs. Julia Thomas, a colored woman, near the corner of Jackson and 2nd Avenue in Phoenix. She was married to Emil Thomas, but later married Albert Schaffer. Both Mrs. Thomas and Schaffer were religious mystics.

Waltz died in October, 1891, at Mrs. Thomas’ home. On his deathbed he gave my father a miner’s candle box full of gold ore, which he had under his bed. He also made a lengthy deathbed revelation regarding the history and location of the source of the gold, since called “The Lost Dutchman Mine”. The only people present at this time were Waltz, my father Dick Holmes, and Gideon Roberts. Mrs. Thomas, delayed in locating a doctor, and the others who claimed to have been present at Waltz’ death, did not enter the scene until later.

Keeping several pieces of the gold for specimens, my father sold the remainder of the ore to Goldman & Co., who were general merchants on East Washington Street, receiving about $4,800.00 in the transaction.

One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s store. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce.

Joe Porterie had been the assayer at the Vulture Mine at Wickenburg during its operation. The rumor that Waltz never had a mine, but high-graded this ore during his employment at the Vulture, was flatly refuted by Porterie, as the ore in Waltz’ possession was quite different from anything at the Vulture. A man of integrity, Joe Porterie later became constable, deputy sheriff, and Deputy U. S. Marshall.

Of the unsold pieces, my father kept some as specimen ore, and also had jewelry made, consisting of a ring, cufflinks, a stickpin and a stud. These are still in my possession.

Of the ore sold to Goldman & Co., most was cleaned and the gold shipped. To my father’s knowledge, the only other specimen ore kept intact was obtained from Goldman’s by Jimmie Douglas. There were several “James Douglas” in the family, this son being the son of the President of the Phelps-Dodge Co., for whom the town of Douglas, Arizona, was named, and the father of Lew Douglas, the American Ambassador to England under President Truman.

Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goldman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store.

I do not know by whom the presentation was made, nor the identity of the J.L. & Co. in the engraved inscription on the matchbox. I can offer a GUESS only.

There was, in San Francisco, a manufacturing jeweler known as John Levy & Co. who, during that period, made jewelry which was sold in the Arizona Territory. Both Levy & Hirschfield were Jewish, and Hirschfield was well known in the early West. This MIGHT POSSIBLY explain the inscription, it being understood this is NOT REPRESENTED AS BEING A FACT.

Hirschfield, a friend of both my father and myself, knew my father to have originally been given the ore by “The Dutchman” Jacob Waltz. Accordingly, he advised Mrs. Hirschfield that, upon his death, the match box was to be given to the Holmes family. My father preceded Mr. Hirschfield in death, and at the time of Mr. Hirschfield’s passing, the matchbox was given to me.

In turn, I have presented the matchbox to my friend, ____XXX______ of Apache Junction, Arizona. This affidavit serves as a statement of its historical authenticity, as well as evidence of ownership by Mr. __XXX__.

As a means of identification, the matchbox weighs 48.4 grams, and measures 2.489-in. long, 1.317-in. wide and 0.525-in. thick. It is engraved, bearing the inscription J. L. & Co. to G. H. H. It is made with inlays of gold-bearing quartz, with free wire fold stringers varying from .06-in. to .13-in. in width, and which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton.

Signature: George Holmes

Subscribed and Sworn to Before Me this, 23rd day of April, A.D. 1969.
J. Yenerich
Notary Public
Maricopa County, Arizona
My commission expires: August 30, 1970
Click to expand...

Above it states, "I can offer a GUESS only" I am certain IF there were a similar "J.L. and Co" as is stated as being "engraved inscription on the matchbox" in AZ at the time...George Holmes who swore in the above affidavit would have known about it and would have sworn to such...

Just my thoughts...Then again I could be wrong...The closing statement is really catchy...IF ya'll read it closely...IT states that the "which would assay an estimated quarter million dollars per ton"...I guess that Waltz shipped about one ton of his ore to the treasury to earn his quarter million dollars that he had supposedly done at said time...I think its funny how some people warp things into being...lol

Heck...In a hundred years there might be stories of a Mackey School Alum who found a paragon diamond somewhere in NV...Who's to say???heheheh
 

You must log in or register to reply here.

Question

⬅️ Previous Thread

The Dutchman Ore Test, TE Glover book The Golden Dream

Next Thread ➡️

Top Member Reactions

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)

Latest Discussions

Back
Top