The Pit Mine, the LDM, Kochera and the Nugget of Truth video.

It sure is Oro..."One piece of ore was taken to Joe Porterie, an assayer, whose office was on West Washington Street, in the next block west of Goldman’s store. The assay showed $110,000.00 per ton in gold, the price of gold then being $20.67 per ounce" from the same affidavit...

I guess that we may never know...We believe what we choose to believe...Due to the facts that we are presented with, or the lies that we have been told through time, and as we perceive them through our little minds...Some of us would like to believe in such things more than others...lol

Oh...I also found the following entertaining..."Of the ore which Jimmie Douglas obtained, a gold matchbox was made up and presented to Gus H. Hirschfield. Hirschfield, of whom Leo and Charles Goldman were deeply fond, was a skilled mathematician, who at the time kept books for Goldman’s. A prominent Phoenix businessman, Hirschfield later owned the Palace Saloon, located in the same block as Goldman’s store."I have always heard that being a saloon owner in the Old West to be a truly honorable profession...And I am sure that they were completely honest as well...Who is to say that he did not win the jewelry in question in a poker match before he owned the saloon...Oh...We all know that they did not play poker in the Old West either...
 

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I wonder who made more off of the prospectors that came in to search for the LDM...Goldman who owned the store who sold supplies to the miners or Hirschfield who sold liquor and companionship to them???rofl
 

Since Brownie said that the match box was handed down to him from someone else and not his father. It's possible that it's not J.W. gold. Maybe we should be taking a hard look at the stick pin and if there are any pictures of the other jewelry. Brownie said that gold came from the box.
 

nobodie said:
Since Brownie said that the match box was handed down to him from someone else and not his father. It's possible that it's not J.W. gold. Maybe we should be taking a hard look at the stick pin and if there are any pictures of the other jewelry. Brownie said that gold came from the box.
Click to expand...

I take it that nobody caught my subtle hint where I was insinuating that there may have been a possibility that the jewelry in question may have possibly belonged to some flashy maverick who may have lost it in a poker match...Oh well...:dontknow: Anything is possible I guess...:tongue3: Who is to say???:notworthy:

Wouldn't it be something IF the young maverick had even been to CA during the gold rush and informed those involved in AZ that the people who were making the real money in CA, or any other mining area at said time, were those who owned businesses that catered to the miners???

Maybe one day someone will find the LDM and prove me wrong...

As IF I have been to the area depicted in the PSM's...As IF I can prove many of ya'll wrong...hehehe..."It is really hard to find" though...Heck...I don't even believe that I can return to the area where I counted 13 mines...rofl...:laughing7: ...Wherever they may be...:icon_scratch::hello:
 

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JohnWhite said:
I take it that nobody caught my subtle hint where I was insinuating that there may have been a possibility that the jewelry in question may have possibly belonged to some flashy maverick who may have lost it in a poker match...Oh well...:dontknow: Anything is possible I guess...:tongue3: Who is to say???:notworthy:

Wouldn't it be something IF the young maverick had even been to CA during the gold rush and informed those involved in AZ that the people who were making the real money in CA, or any other mining area at said time, were those who owned businesses that catered to the miners???

Maybe one day someone will find the LDM and prove me wrong...

As IF I have been to the area depicted in the PSM's...As IF I can prove many of ya'll wrong...hehehe..."It is really hard to find" though...Heck...I don't even believe that I can return to the area where I counted 13 mines...rofl...:laughing7: ...Wherever they may be...:icon_scratch::hello:
Click to expand...

yep..and IF a frog had wings he wouldn't have to bounce around on his belly
 

Oroblanco said:
I never said I put a lot of trust in Barry Storm, just that he died in '71. He was a promoter, with all that goes with a promoter.

Loke wrote


Hmm how do you know how far away Wagoner's ledge is from the Pit mine? :tongue3:

Wrmickel1 wrote


I never said I put my trust in Barry Storm, in fact I only trust a very few people on the planet, and I even question the Bible. Don't assume what I might be putting faith in. Holmes was very definitely 'in on' the very first searches for the LDM, he went out as soon as he knew the Dutchman was dead, and according to the manuscript, had even attempted to trail Waltz to his mine. Who knows why Julia put a horse on her map, she drew a number of them and sold them for extra money.

Wrmickel1 also wrote


Why don't you read what he wrote himself and find out?

Now on the rose quartz thing, for our readers that don't know what we are talking about, here is a shot of gold in ROSE quartz
QAU6C.jpg


Compare to the famous matchbox
8288f-aematchbox-of-waltz-ore.jpg

a better photo
Match+Box+purportedly+made+from+gold+ore+sample+from+the+Lost+Dutchman+mine,+Arizona.+From+GemHutner.webs.com+-+Copy.JPG


Does that matchbox look like it is ROSE quartz to you?

Please do continue;

:coffee2: :coffee2: :coffee:
Click to expand...
The Lost Wagoner Mine
 

When that matchbox ore is somehow confirmed to have come from the Salt/Gila region in AZ, then the Waltz cache myth will garner more traction. Picture rock of matchbox quality wasn't that hard to find during his era. Here's a nice piece from a southwest CO mine I used to work in - one that actually DID make millionaires out of many folks..

Idarado ore.jpg
 

Everyone is entitled to believe or disbelieve whatever they want concerning the authenticity of the Dutchman ore, the Matchbox, all the other items made from Dutchman ore and even ores such as the Kochera, Vulture, Bulldog, Camp, Mammoth and Black Queen.

The Holmes Manuscript and the Brownie Holmes Affidavit are not the only sources we have to tell the story of Dutchman ore and the items that were created from that ore.
Gus Hirshfeld who was the original recipient of the "Matchbox" was a well known Phoenix businessman and mining man as well as accountant. Hirshfeld along with Julius Lieberman, the Goldman's, Baron Goldwater and several other Phoenix businessmen partnered in numerous mining and business ventures in Phoenix, Mesa, Florence and Wilcox. Hirshfeld was once co-owner of the Bulldog mine with Charles Ellis.
Gus Hirshfeld made his living as an accountant for numerous business just as CPA's do today. When Hirshfeld died in 1953 he was retired but still the accountant for the estate of Dr.Wm. Craig of Phoenix.

I have my own reasons why I believe the story of the Dutchman's death and what happened to the gold he had with him when he died.
Just one of those reasons are the oral remembrances of a good many people who were living at that time and the accounts they passed down to us today.

For those who question the truthfulness of Dick Holmes or his son Brownie Holmes and their accounts I can understand. It's easy to disparage people you never met and never knew and have only other peoples opinions to form your own.

There are many reputable people who did know Brownie Holmes and are still with us today who have seen evidence and believe the Holmes accounts. Clay Worst was a personal friend of Brownie Holmes and has great respect for Brownie and on numerous occasions told the Holmes account in public at the Superstition Mountain Museum.

Others who are well respected in the community have also gone on record attesting to the truthfulness of the various accounts as shown below:


On April 13, 1985, local author and historian Tom Kollenborn signed a sworn and notarized affidavit which reads in part :

..... The ore (Dutchman ore) was taken to Goldman's store in Phoenix, Arizona where it was assayed. I have seen the assay report on this ore and this assay report indicates that it was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The assay report further states that the ore assayed at $110,000 a ton and that gold at that time was selling for $20.64 an ounce. I have also seen shipping papers sending the ore to a jewelry company in San Francisco requesting that a matchbox, ring, tie pin and cuff links be made from the ore. .......................



On April 10, 1985 the then Arizona Attorney General, Bob Corbin, wrote and signed a sworn affidavit notarized by Notary Public Kathleen Copas. In that April 10, 1985 affidavit Bob Corbin swore to the following :

This is to certify that I am Bob Corbin, Attorney General of Arizona. I have been held that office since 1979. ..........................
I have seen the report (assay) on the said ore (Dutchman ore) which was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton. Gold was selling for $20.64 an ounce in 1891.
................. With the items were shipping papers indicating some of the ore had been sent to a jewelry company in San Francisco in 1892. A request accompanied it directing the jeweler to make a matchbox, ring, tie pin, and cuff links from the ore. I have also seen the papers shipping this jewelry back to Phoenix. ......................


Both of these affidavit can be seen in their entirety in the book by Helen Corbin, The Curse Of The Dutchman's Gold on pages 231 - 234.
 

Matthew Roberts said:
Everyone is entitled to believe or disbelieve whatever they want concerning the authenticity of the Dutchman ore, the Matchbox, all the other items made from Dutchman ore and even ores such as the Kochera, Vulture, Bulldog, Camp, Mammoth and Black Queen.

The Holmes Manuscript and the Brownie Holmes Affidavit are not the only sources we have to tell the story of Dutchman ore and the items that were created from that ore.
Gus Hirshfeld who was the original recipient of the "Matchbox" was a well known Phoenix businessman and mining man as well as accountant. Hirshfeld along with Julius Lieberman, the Goldman's, Baron Goldwater and several other Phoenix businessmen partnered in numerous mining and business ventures in Phoenix, Mesa, Florence and Wilcox. Hirshfeld was once co-owner of the Bulldog mine with Charles Ellis.
Gus Hirshfeld made his living as an accountant for numerous business just as CPA's do today. When Hirshfeld died in 1953 he was retired but still the accountant for the estate of Dr.Wm. Craig of Phoenix.

I have my own reasons why I believe the story of the Dutchman's death and what happened to the gold he had with him when he died.
Just one of those reasons are the oral remembrances of a good many people who were living at that time and the accounts they passed down to us today.

For those who question the truthfulness of Dick Holmes or his son Brownie Holmes and their accounts I can understand. It's easy to disparage people you never met and never knew and have only other peoples opinions to form your own.

There are many reputable people who did know Brownie Holmes and are still with us today who have seen evidence and believe the Holmes accounts. Clay Worst was a personal friend of Brownie Holmes and has great respect for Brownie and on numerous occasions told the Holmes account in public at the Superstition Mountain Museum.

Others who are well respected in the community have also gone on record attesting to the truthfulness of the various accounts as shown below:


On April 13, 1985, local author and historian Tom Kollenborn signed a sworn and notarized affidavit which reads in part :

..... The ore (Dutchman ore) was taken to Goldman's store in Phoenix, Arizona where it was assayed. I have seen the assay report on this ore and this assay report indicates that it was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The assay report further states that the ore assayed at $110,000 a ton and that gold at that time was selling for $20.64 an ounce. I have also seen shipping papers sending the ore to a jewelry company in San Francisco requesting that a matchbox, ring, tie pin and cuff links be made from the ore. .......................



On April 10, 1985 the then Arizona Attorney General, Bob Corbin, wrote and signed a sworn affidavit notarized by Notary Public Kathleen Copas. In that April 10, 1985 affidavit Bob Corbin swore to the following :

This is to certify that I am Bob Corbin, Attorney General of Arizona. I have been held that office since 1979. ..........................
I have seen the report (assay) on the said ore (Dutchman ore) which was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton. Gold was selling for $20.64 an ounce in 1891.
................. With the items were shipping papers indicating some of the ore had been sent to a jewelry company in San Francisco in 1892. A request accompanied it directing the jeweler to make a matchbox, ring, tie pin, and cuff links from the ore. I have also seen the papers shipping this jewelry back to Phoenix. ......................


Both of these affidavit can be seen in their entirety in the book by Helen Corbin, The Curse Of The Dutchman's Gold on pages 231 - 234.
Click to expand...

Matthew,

Both men are still personal friends of mine. They have both stated that they were only saying they had seen the things you have listed. Neither man could or would testify to the truthfulness or authenticity of the items they observed.

At this point in time neither man believes that the LDM, as described, is located in the Superstitions.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
 

cactusjumper,

I understand what you are saying and of course it goes without saying that Tom K. and Bob C. only swore to seeing the assay report and shipping papers for the items they listed.

My point is that the sworn affidavits prove the assay report paperwork and items such as the Matchbox and it's paperwork and date (1892) do exist, and I don't think either Tom K. or Bob C. would involve themselves in something they didn't believe was truthful and authentic.
Swearing to and signing an affidavit is not a lark or a joke, it goes beyond just looking at something and saying,...... "yeah, its a piece of paper alright."
I also know both men and don't believe for a minute either one would involve themselves in something if they thought there was even a hint that something was not above board.

And as for what either man believes about where the LDM may be located, I remember when they both believed it WAS in the Superstitions. Now they don't. That's their opinion and they're entitled to it just like everyone else.

Matthew
 

Matthew Roberts said:
Everyone is entitled to believe or disbelieve whatever they want concerning the authenticity of the Dutchman ore, the Matchbox, all the other items made from Dutchman ore and even ores such as the Kochera, Vulture, Bulldog, Camp, Mammoth and Black Queen.

The Holmes Manuscript and the Brownie Holmes Affidavit are not the only sources we have to tell the story of Dutchman ore and the items that were created from that ore.
Gus Hirshfeld who was the original recipient of the "Matchbox" was a well known Phoenix businessman and mining man as well as accountant. Hirshfeld along with Julius Lieberman, the Goldman's, Baron Goldwater and several other Phoenix businessmen partnered in numerous mining and business ventures in Phoenix, Mesa, Florence and Wilcox. Hirshfeld was once co-owner of the Bulldog mine with Charles Ellis.
Gus Hirshfeld made his living as an accountant for numerous business just as CPA's do today. When Hirshfeld died in 1953 he was retired but still the accountant for the estate of Dr.Wm. Craig of Phoenix.

I have my own reasons why I believe the story of the Dutchman's death and what happened to the gold he had with him when he died.
Just one of those reasons are the oral remembrances of a good many people who were living at that time and the accounts they passed down to us today.

For those who question the truthfulness of Dick Holmes or his son Brownie Holmes and their accounts I can understand. It's easy to disparage people you never met and never knew and have only other peoples opinions to form your own.

There are many reputable people who did know Brownie Holmes and are still with us today who have seen evidence and believe the Holmes accounts. Clay Worst was a personal friend of Brownie Holmes and has great respect for Brownie and on numerous occasions told the Holmes account in public at the Superstition Mountain Museum.

Others who are well respected in the community have also gone on record attesting to the truthfulness of the various accounts as shown below:


On April 13, 1985, local author and historian Tom Kollenborn signed a sworn and notarized affidavit which reads in part :

..... The ore (Dutchman ore) was taken to Goldman's store in Phoenix, Arizona where it was assayed. I have seen the assay report on this ore and this assay report indicates that it was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The assay report further states that the ore assayed at $110,000 a ton and that gold at that time was selling for $20.64 an ounce. I have also seen shipping papers sending the ore to a jewelry company in San Francisco requesting that a matchbox, ring, tie pin and cuff links be made from the ore. .......................



On April 10, 1985 the then Arizona Attorney General, Bob Corbin, wrote and signed a sworn affidavit notarized by Notary Public Kathleen Copas. In that April 10, 1985 affidavit Bob Corbin swore to the following :

This is to certify that I am Bob Corbin, Attorney General of Arizona. I have been held that office since 1979. ..........................
I have seen the report (assay) on the said ore (Dutchman ore) which was assayed at Goldman's store by Dick Holmes. The report states that the ore assayed out at $110,000 a ton. Gold was selling for $20.64 an ounce in 1891.
................. With the items were shipping papers indicating some of the ore had been sent to a jewelry company in San Francisco in 1892. A request accompanied it directing the jeweler to make a matchbox, ring, tie pin, and cuff links from the ore. I have also seen the papers shipping this jewelry back to Phoenix. ......................


Both of these affidavit can be seen in their entirety in the book by Helen Corbin, The Curse Of The Dutchman's Gold on pages 231 - 234.
Click to expand...

IF my memory serves me correctly...Just yesterday you were stating that the jewelry was made by a company in AZ...Now it seems that you are producing two statements which are saying that the ore was shipped to a jeweler in San Francisco...

It seems to me that at one point some earlier LDM seekers caught the discrepancy in the jewelry and tried to cover the tracks proving that the jewelry in question was made in CA from CA gold ore...

Just my two cents...
 

Oh...I also failed to mention that Babymick1 also stated that the jeweler in question no longer made jewelry after a certain date...
 

JohnWhite said:
Oh...I also failed to mention that Babymick1 also stated that the jeweler in question no longer made jewelry after a certain date...
Click to expand...

JohnWhite,

I didn't say the Matchbox (jewelry) was made by a company in Arizona.

I said the JL & Co. on the inscription was not John Levy of San Francisco it was Julius Lieberman of Arizona.

And Julius Liberman was not the company who made the Matchbox he was the man who awarded it to Gus Hirshfeld.

Any company could have made the Matchbox.

You are confusing that the manufacturer gave the Matchbox to Hirshfeld.

Julius Lieberman gave the Matchbox to Hirshfeld because Hirshfeld and Lieberman were business partners.

Julius Lieberman wasn't in the Jewelry business or making Matchboxes.

And Brownie Holmes never said John Levy and Co. of San Francisco definitely made the Matchbox, he said they might have made it, he did not know for sure.

I really can't explain it any better than that.

Matthew
 

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Ya'll are entitled to continue ya'lls quest for the LDM, on information which ya'll consider holy scripture...

I on the other hand will continue to search for whatever IT is that I have the notion to search for...I have wasted enough time in AZ searching for stuff...Have I found anything worth mentioning in AZ???Who can say???

I will continue to state...IT is where one finds it...I have had much better luck in OR, NV, and CA than I have had in AZ...Oh...And I have found some interesting stuff in Mexico as well...

As Oro has mentioned...I do have some tales to tell...And I am a firm believer in "IF you can't dazzle them with brilliance..." I'm certain some of ya'll know the rest...As I do believe that said statement fits with the LDM story...lol
 

JohnWhite said:
Ya'll are entitled to continue ya'lls quest for the LDM, on information which ya'll consider holy scripture...

I on the other hand will continue to search for whatever IT is that I have the notion to search for...I have wasted enough time in AZ searching for stuff...Have I found anything worth mentioning in AZ???Who can say???

I will continue to state...IT is where one finds it...I have had much better luck in OR, NV, and CA than I have had in AZ...Oh...And I have found some interesting stuff in Mexico as well...

As Oro has mentioned...I do have some tales to tell...And I am a firm believer in "IF you can't dazzle them with brilliance..." I'm certain some of ya'll know the rest...As I do believe that said statement fits with the LDM story...lol
Click to expand...


I wish you only the best John.

Matthew Roberts
 

JohnWhite said:
IF my memory serves me correctly...Just yesterday you were stating that the jewelry was made by a company in AZ...Now it seems that you are producing two statements which are saying that the ore was shipped to a jeweler in San Francisco...

It seems to me that at one point some earlier LDM seekers caught the discrepancy in the jewelry and tried to cover the tracks proving that the jewelry in question was made in CA from CA gold ore...

Just my two cents...
Click to expand...

I don't for the life of me have any idea how someone can come to that conclusion. This thread has quickly twisted into a menagerie of conspiracy theories, wild guesses and outright misinterpretations.

If you want to make the argument that the gold used to make the matchbox came from "choice" gold ore Waltz had collected over the years from various locations including his time spent in CA, you’re free to make that claim however there is absolutely zero evidence to back that up – NONE AT ALL, just a wild theory. You could just as easily say that Darrell Duppa brought gold with him from New Zealand and sold it to Jacob Waltz, or some other pioneer who travelled west to AZ brought it with him and Waltz stole it – there’s just as much evidence for those things - zero.

I hate seeing potentially interesting threads get so badly sidetracked.
 

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