Todays Heartbreaker, Pipe Frag and preform

Airborne80 · Nov 13, 2008

The first pic was a big disappointment for me. It looks and feels like a lance point that was broken below the tip. Its heavy, worked very smooth and has a nice weight to it. To heavy to be an arrowhead for sure. The next one is what I think is a lance point preform. Its granite and I have found a number of these in the same area. The third item is a broken trade pipe bowell. I have a ton of fragments and bowls from this site. The item next to the pipe fragment is another poorly made granite preform. The camp is so large and has such a history that I imagine that there were thousands of years of many different caliber of knappers. Kids, teens and young people who were learning to knapp. I mean, great knappers had to start somewhere. Anyways.... what are your thoughts?

archaeon · Nov 13, 2008

i hate to keep having to say this...but here goes

...
the first one doesn't show any flaking, it might just be a flake with no work on it, hard to tell from fuzzy pics. the second one is definitely not a point or blade, again, no flaking.
the piece you are saying is a pipe looks like a geofact, but again, you need better quality pics to really see what it is..but the shape says geofact to me....and there is no way of telling its size.

Airborne80 · Nov 13, 2008

archaeon said:
i hate to keep having to say this...but here goes ...
the first one doesn't show any flaking, it might just be a flake with no work on it, hard to tell from fuzzy pics. the second one is definitely not a point or blade, again, no flaking.
the piece you are saying is a pipe looks like a geofact, but again, you need better quality pics to really see what it is..but the shape says geofact to me....and there is no way of telling its size.

No worries Archaeon........ I put em up here so I can get opinions and really value each one. I know the photos are not good and can see that you are probably correct about the first one. I think though that if you could feel the way that the base is tapered evenly on each side and feel the ridges on the sides (they feel like they were chipped, not natural) you might reconsider. Either way, this one is in my box of "maybes" and will not make it into a frame or display :wink:

I only frame the ones that we all agree on and I am up to twenty one of those now. This December will be one year since I started my hobby and I am very happy with the 21 confirmed points, heartbrekers and many pipe pieces. Speaking of the pipes......... the pic is not clear but trust me on this... it is a pipe piece for sure. I have a display case with a lot of bowls and a ton of fragments. I find so many of them in the river in such a small area, I honestly believe that a box or two of them fell off of a ship and they just keep washing up day after day.

Thanks again for your thoughts and please... never feel bad about helping me learn.

Airborne80 · Nov 13, 2008

This is in fact a part of a kaolin pipe and I find a ton of these things in one small area. I have only been collecting this things for a year (next month) and call them trade pipes because...... when I started this hobby, thats what others were calling them :wink:

The thing with my site is... in addition to having thousands of years of history as an Indian Summer Fishing camp, it also saw Revolutionary and Civil War activity.... so I find a myriad of items there.

Thanks again for the thoughts and for sharing the awesome photo.

archaeon · Nov 13, 2008

yes, i definitely see that as a broken bowl now....nice!

Airborne80 · Nov 13, 2008

archaeon said:
es, i definitely see that as a broken bowl now....nice!

Thanks brother. I really do wonder why there are soooooo many broken pipes in such a small area? I wonder if thats common.

Ohio_Doug · Nov 13, 2008

The first one looks worked to me :icon_scratch:

Airborne80 · Nov 13, 2008

Ohio_Doug said:
The first one looks worked to me

Me to Ohio. It also feels worked. It is fully even (in terms of thickness and taper) on both sides, the edges are serrated and the base is perfectly even and tapered as well. If it is just a rock, its an odd one to end up at a site full of flakes, heartbreakers and awesome points. Who knows?

The Grim Reaper · Nov 13, 2008

Airborne, check the history of your area and see if maybe there might have been a trading post or small settlement right in the vicinity of where all the Pipe fragments are being found. That would explain all of the pieces in one area.

I know that here is Ohio there is a spot on the Ohio River in the town of Point Pleasent, Ohio where Trade Pipe culls and fragments are found by the hundreds because of a factory that was there in the 1800's that manufactured these type of Pipes. That could be another possibilty on your Pipe pieces.

*Molly* · Nov 13, 2008

I'm puzzled why AB's finds are indeed arrow/blade shaped. Alls I can say is, without actually looking & holding these peices I couldn't say for sure, but still puzzled why your finds are ALL shaped that way. The first one looks to me like a worn down Savanah River.
AB you ever get puzzled, send me a few, I will send them to a good friend of mine at the NC museum, see what he thinks.

Molly.

Airborne80 · Nov 13, 2008

Molly said:
I'm puzzled why AB's finds are indeed arrow/blade shaped. Alls I can say is, without actually looking & holding these peices I couldn't say for sure, but still puzzled why your finds are ALL shaped that way. The first one looks to me like a worn down Savanah River.
AB you ever get puzzled, send me a few, I will send them to a good friend of mine at the NC museum, see what he thinks.

Molly.

Molly..... if you PM me an address, I will send you some of the things that have been disputed here. Believe me, I am very curious and you ask the most obvious question. Why on earth would I keep finding rocks that happen to be point shaped and all in the same area? Common sense to a novice would indicate that they were crafted. But I can't dispute those here who have so much experience, who are certain that they are geofacts. Remember some of my earlier threads where we discussed the importance of lack of flaking marks? Yest, I have posted quite a few points here that were identifiable by those on this site.... as 100% points and yet.... they bore no flaking marks. As a non expert, I have always supposed that the material used, combined with being washed about in the river for thousands of years has simple kept them smooth. But yes..... I would love to loan a package of them to an expert for analysis. Thank you for the offer and let's hope that we all learn something new and fun

Or.... I can stop wasting our time with pictures of rocks :wink:

*Molly* · Nov 13, 2008

I agree with you. I have told you also, on the campsite I hunt I have found quartz(ite) points that show no flaking but one can see by the shape they are indeed points, also the location they have been found, proves it. Seems to me that sugar quartz shows no flaking & is rather prone to weathering. Also look at swamp points, these look the same, no real flaking details.
So lets see what my friend says at the museum.
I'll PM you.. I just want to help you get this sorted..lol.

Molly.

Airborne80 · Nov 14, 2008

Molly said:
I agree with you. I have told you also, on the campsite I hunt I have found quartz(ite) points that show no flaking but one can see by the shape they are indeed points, also the location they have been found, proves it. Seems to me that sugar quartz shows no flaking & is rather prone to weathering. Also look at swamp points, these look the same, no real flaking details.
So lets see what my friend says at the museum.
I'll PM you.. I just want to help you get this sorted..lol.

Molly.

Thanks Molly. I really appreciate it. as long as I get them back (Ill pay shipping both ways) I will be happy to send you anything (except that one white point of mine that you love hahaha

) for examination. Believe me... if i am just wasting my time on simple geofacts, I want to know. I have a ton of things that most here would not believe that I keep picking up. remember the glass arrowhead issue a while ago? I still find some that I just can't leave on the ground because its just tooooo strange that they are shaped exactly;y like arrowheads, with a base, equal sides, etc. i know its probably nuts but considering the high volume of activity in that site and the fact that 100% of the glass on the ground happens to be shaped like arrowheads...... I just cant believe that its coincidence. If i smashed a hundred bottles, how many point shaped pieces would the mess produce? And then..... why would they all end up at an Indian fishing site? I still think that its slightly possible that late, historic Indians used trade glass or glass acquired from settlers to make fishing points. Possible anyway.

Airborne80 · Nov 14, 2008

Here is another one found at the exact same spot. I appreciate the info on how to age these things. I will have to go look at the ones I have. i think that they are all the same in terms of shape and such. Thanks again.

SouthernGirl · Nov 14, 2008

I am new at this but I would have pick it up and thought it was a point

Airborne80 · Nov 14, 2008

SouthernGirl said:
I am new at this but I would have pick it up and thought it was a point

Welcome and believe me... I have carted home a truckfull of maybes that turned out to be nothings hahah. Better safe than sorry. i still bring home items that nobody but me believe are points hahaha. This is my first year at it and i have learned to scrutinize a lot more than I used to. I have a ways to go though. Good luck and understand that you are now addicted :wink: