U.K. coat of arms button - needs a date

[mile-ender]

Dug this one today and was wondering if anyone could maybe give me an opinion of the age?

 

[CRUSADER]

Crusader, you dig more of the pewter buttons over there than we do. Ignoring the front for a minute, is the partially buried round shank on a pewter cast button a sign of it being modern? I usually fid the old ones with the full round of the shank showing?

I couldn't say, but the metal quality is poor as well, which normally equals more modern.

Simply, this 'design' (although this one is a poor copy) did not exsist on any buttons before 1902.

 

[mile-ender]

What type of site was it found and what else did you dig?

Are you familiar with Montreal? - You know the mountain? Mount-Royal? There's actually about three hills, it was on an older path on one of the hills. Considering the history of Montreal.....

In other words it was random, so no help.

Have you been able to find anything early French? I'm east of you (Maritimes) and have many early to mid. 18th century Fr. sites.

Earliest piece I can date is this sol billon from 1742 - silver copper comp. it was originally supposed to be the money for New France but apparently most of it ended up in the islands. I got mine on river bank - highly corroded when I got it - thought it was garbage but figured I'd clean it and see....
As far as "sites" go, as far as I know any known site is historic and so off limits....Hopefully my research will turn up some of those lost forts

 

[CRUSADER]

What type of site was it found and what else did you dig?

Are you familiar with Montreal? - You know the mountain? Mount-Royal? There's actually about three hills, it was on an older path on one of the hills. Considering the history of Montreal.....

In other words it was random, so no help.

Have you been able to find anything early French? I'm east of you (Maritimes) and have many early to mid. 18th century Fr. sites.

Earliest piece I can date is this sol billon from 1742 - silver copper comp. it was originally supposed to be the money for New France but apparently most of it ended up in the islands. I got mine on river bank - highly corroded when I got it - thought it was garbage but figured I'd clean it and see....
As far as "sites" go, as far as I know any known site is historic and so off limits....Hopefully my research will turn up some of those lost forts

Old fort or not. You can't pre date 1902 with this design!

 

[CRUSADER]

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,185820.0.html

Here is a similar copy of a British Button. It is puzzelling why they copied a common button but did it using seemingly older techniques

 

[Iron Patch]

What type of site was it found and what else did you dig?

Are you familiar with Montreal? - You know the mountain? Mount-Royal? There's actually about three hills, it was on an older path on one of the hills. Considering the history of Montreal.....

In other words it was random, so no help.

Have you been able to find anything early French? I'm east of you (Maritimes) and have many early to mid. 18th century Fr. sites.

Earliest piece I can date is this sol billon from 1742 - silver copper comp. it was originally supposed to be the money for New France but apparently most of it ended up in the islands. I got mine on river bank - highly corroded when I got it - thought it was garbage but figured I'd clean it and see....
As far as "sites" go, as far as I know any known site is historic and so off limits....Hopefully my research will turn up some of those lost forts

Cool. I've found a couple of those, both poor. I completely know how you could of thought it was junk.

If you can see the other side, is there dots on each side of the star at the bottom?

 

[johnnyi]

Good id you guys! Here is a link which shows the same kind modern manufaturing; cast, plated, with the shank cast deeper into the mold than an early button. I gues it's the easiest way to make a fake. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,265225.0.html

 

[Iron Patch]

Good id you guys! Here is a link which shows the same kind modern manufaturing; cast, plated, with the shank cast deeper into the mold than an early button. I gues it's the easiest way to make a fake. http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,265225.0.html

For me it wasn't the back, I was aware of modern types having that look. It was it being eaten like a typical pewter that got me. Having said that, I did have serious questions never having seen one and I have seen a lot of buttons, bought more then I care to say. (more than CRU will probably ever dig)

 

[mile-ender]

Well...I'm gonna check this as solved - but I'm not necessarily convinced - no offence
If you check out this link - http://books.google.ca/books?id=-rH...lt&resnum=9#v=onepage&q=button shanks&f=false - check the shank images on page 52 then read page 64 for the explanation.
I'm just a stickler for proof. So if anything else comes up in the future on this one or my Louis the XIIII - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3206261301/ - and the front - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3207104198/ - I'll let you all know.

 

[Iron Patch]

Well...I'm gonna check this as solved - but I'm not necessarily convinced - no offence
If you check out this link - http://books.google.ca/books?id=-rH...lt&resnum=9#v=onepage&q=button shanks&f=false - check the shank images on page 52 then read page 64 for the explanation.
I'm just a stickler for proof. So if anything else comes up in the future on this one or my Louis the XIIII - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3206261301/ - and the front - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3207104198/ - I'll let you all know.

There's one point you may be missing.

You probably agree it is a coat of arms, which means most likely it was a general service button, and general service buttons were always used in great numbers. Having been used in great numbers, they turn up as finds, and are very well documented. Can you now see the conflicting aspects of your find? Eventhough I can't tell you what it is, I can tell you what it's not as far as being Colonial period is concerned. I'm glad you found it though, made for a good thread.

Your 1742 H 2 Sol was very widely counterfeited. (why I asked about the stars)

Seen on your link the 104th... Great find with Incredible history! Was this dug in Montreal? Were they there? I have both a Silver officer cuff size, and a bit larger pewter. I consider myself very lucky to have found both here.

The Roman type button shank looks modern as does the face, I have seen similar buttons.

 

[mile-ender]

Well...I'm gonna check this as solved - but I'm not necessarily convinced - no offence
If you check out this link - http://books.google.ca/books?id=-rH...lt&resnum=9#v=onepage&q=button shanks&f=false - check the shank images on page 52 then read page 64 for the explanation.
I'm just a stickler for proof. So if anything else comes up in the future on this one or my Louis the XIIII - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3206261301/ - and the front - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3207104198/ - I'll let you all know.

There's one point you may be missing.

You probably agree it is a coat of arms, which means most likely it was a general service button, and general service buttons were always used in great numbers. Having been used in great numbers, they turn up as finds, and are very well documented. Can you now see the conflicting aspects of your find? Eventhough I can't tell you what it is, I can tell you what it's not as far as being Colonial period is concerned. I'm glad you found it though, made for a good thread.

Your 1742 H 2 Sol was very widely counterfeited. (why I asked about the stars)

Seen on your link the 104th... Great find with Incredible history! Was this dug in Montreal? Were they there? I have both a Silver officer cuff size, and a bit larger pewter. I consider myself very lucky to have found both here.

The Roman type button shank looks modern as does the face, I have seen similar buttons.

The sol has stars - the 104th was found Eastern shore of Montreal - I like to think it was when they made there way up to Kingston. And as far as buttons go... I think I'm gonna invest in a s**t load of reference books, 'cuz from the buttons I dig and see on this site, I'm thinking it would be worth the investment

 

[Iron Patch]

Well...I'm gonna check this as solved - but I'm not necessarily convinced - no offence
If you check out this link - http://books.google.ca/books?id=-rH...lt&resnum=9#v=onepage&q=button shanks&f=false - check the shank images on page 52 then read page 64 for the explanation.
I'm just a stickler for proof. So if anything else comes up in the future on this one or my Louis the XIIII - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3206261301/ - and the front - http://www.flickr.com/photos/71319526@N00/3207104198/ - I'll let you all know.

There's one point you may be missing.

You probably agree it is a coat of arms, which means most likely it was a general service button, and general service buttons were always used in great numbers. Having been used in great numbers, they turn up as finds, and are very well documented. Can you now see the conflicting aspects of your find? Eventhough I can't tell you what it is, I can tell you what it's not as far as being Colonial period is concerned. I'm glad you found it though, made for a good thread.

Your 1742 H 2 Sol was very widely counterfeited. (why I asked about the stars)

Seen on your link the 104th... Great find with Incredible history! Was this dug in Montreal? Were they there? I have both a Silver officer cuff size, and a bit larger pewter. I consider myself very lucky to have found both here.

The Roman type button shank looks modern as does the face, I have seen similar buttons.

The sol has stars - the 104th was found Eastern shore of Montreal - I like to think it was when they made there way up to Kingston. And as far as buttons go... I think I'm gonna invest in a s**t load of reference books, 'cuz from the buttons I dig and see on this site, I'm thinking it would be worth the investment

You mean it has the stops/dots on each side of the star? If so, that makes it a contemporary counterfeit.

For covering the basis on buttons you definitely do need a pile of books because nothing comes remotely close to covering them all. If you want an education in how buttons were constructed over time buy Dating Buttons by Warren Tice.

The 104 is great no matter how it got there and when.