Update: There was a cellar hole out there: Bells, buckles, a baby’s ring? & baby’s first axe!

[DownEast_Detecting]

Update at bottom in form of comment👇

had this marked as a potential site, from searching around my area on lidar. Did some more research on it last week. I also drove by to realize it was public property, so I went out there yesterday early afternoon and stayed until dark. It’s a lot bigger area than I realized. There was a dam built upstream sometime in the late 1800’s that turned most of the area into a lake. It also formed this land into a peninsula of sorts. You can see what the area looked like before the dam on the 1857 map below the red outline is where the peninsula formed. You can see the old road on lidar that is on the topo maps. The building at the end of the road is the large barn cellar hole I think.

There are 3 very distinct cellar holes here as you can see on the lidar.(red, purple & yellow circles) You can also see 2 of the buildings still standing in the 1953 aerial shot.(red & purple circles) the biggest cellar hole(red) I believe was a barn, so it is full of big iron and i had to move on. The majority of my finds were around these 3 cellar holes.

The 1900 topo shows a building at the very top of this hill.(blue circle) so I thought it would be easy to locate even without a cellar hole. I was wrong, I searched all over the top of the hill and couldn’t find anything. no iron or trash or anything. Looking at the lidar though it looks like there was some activity in the upper east area. (Green circle) To me it looks like an old road to a home site. I can’t find anything on the oldest accurate topo map of the area, 1857. So this might be an older homestead site next to the river. It would have been close to the river before the dam was built, then under. water after it was built. The dam gave way sometime in my lifetime, so the lake drained and water levels dropped. I didn’t see this on the lidar until I was home last night composing this post. So I’ll be going back there and searching that area.

These old topo maps aren’t always the most accurate. I have found buildings that should be on the 1857 map that are not. so my best guess is the 3 cellar holes are from the late 1800’s. But there could have been activity here as far back as the late 1600’s up until about 1960. So here are my finds from yesterday.

All of them together

#1 & #4 are toy axes I guess? I’m not sure how #4 attached.
#2 & #3 are buckles that i think our friend the horsey dropped

#5 a thimble?
#6 ?

#7 is a bell but what kind? It looks more modern than most I have found.
#8 is a piece of a Crotal bell

#9 is the smallest bell I have ever found. This would be called a sleigh bell right? What is it made out of?

#10 is a suspender clip.

#11 is a baby’s ring i think. Any info on this would be appreciated. not sure if there use to be 3 stones in it?

Then various drawer pulls and a valve handle. I think I have seen #12 in some horsey stuff before as well?

 

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[mindcrime1988]

Once again, excellent research.
Your finds are pretty impressive too.

 

[pepperj]

#7-jingle bell sleigh
#9-crotal bell
#4-wedge for falling trees probably
The 2 rings that have smaller rings attached are curtain rings I believe.
Nice going on the recoveries and research

 

[scruggs]

Interesting recoveries you made, good job!

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

Once again, excellent research.
Your finds are pretty impressive too.

thank you for stopping in and checking them out mindcrime

#7-jingle bell sleigh
#9-crotal bell
#4-wedge for falling trees probably
The 2 rings that have smaller rings attached are curtain rings I believe.
Nice going on the recoveries and research

#9 is a crotal bell? even that small? its diameter is like a US quarter. what kinds of animals would wear a single tiny bell like that? a chicken?
you realize #4 is like an inch and a half long right? i'm not sure what kind of tiny saplings you would use that on. But i'm assuming its a child's toy right?
Yeah i dont know what those are. I kinda assumed they had to do with plumbing. They are tiny, it would have to be one tiny curtain rod to fit. The small one just barley starts to go over my pinky and stops before the first joint.
Not sure if you only looked at the main picture of finds or what. But the closeups are pictured with one of those crime scene L-Square ruler things for scale.( Its in Inches)😉
Thanks for peaking pepperj

Interesting recoveries you made, good job!

thanks scruggs

 

[E-Trac-Ohio]

Great finds !

 

[Blackfoot58]

A small bell may have been to alert the chickens that the cat was nearby.

 

[pa plateau hiker]

#4 isn't an axe. It's a wedge to attach a wood handle to a tool.

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

Great finds !

Thank you E-trac

A small bell may have been to alert the chickens that the cat was nearby.

Lol. I can see that. But I’m assuming that wasn’t how their were marketed or sold as right? So it’s definitely called a Crotal bell because…..The shank shape? Or something else?

#4 isn't an axe. It's a wedge to attach a wood handle to a tool.

I can definitely get behind that idea for #4 , that makes sense. So what about #1? Did they make children’s toy axes that were made just like the real ones? This thing is metal and you could put an edge on it if you wanted. If it was a hammer or something else I could see how it could have been a real tool. I’ve see tiny hammers before for small tacks. But what would you ever use #1 for? Chopping down matchsticks or toothpicks LOL

 

[Blackfoot58]

I didn’t realize you were questioning the origin of the word crotal.
It is deriven from Gaelic and means Bell or rattle. So crotal bell is a redundant term, like tall giant or smart genius. I’m led to believe the word was in use prior to 1000 a.d.

 

[pa plateau hiker]

DownEast, your little hatchet might be a salesman sample. In the early days traveling salesmen carried small versions of what they were selling. It saved weight and space.

 

[Almy]

Small bells were used on straps that went around a horse as part of the harness. They jingled as the horse moved, alerting people along the way. They also sounded nice. They are part of horse tack today.
The tiny axe is a puzzler. It has all the proportions of a simple rectangular axe with a wedge shape that I often associate with the task of splitting, such as for kindling. But yours is so small that it is probably not a practical tool and the explanation of its being a salesman's sample makes sense. Or someone might be able to suggest a use as some sort of bench axe in a carpenter's or cabinetmaker's shop.
I really like your informative and detailed posts, by the way. The site research is intriguing and numbering all the samples and photographing them with a ruler is really helpful. The quality of the photos is excellent, too. Good work and thanks for sharing!

 

[Digger RJ]

had this marked as a potential site, from searching around my area on lidar. Did some more research on it last week. I also drove by to realize it was public property, so I went out there yesterday early afternoon and stayed until dark. It’s a lot bigger area than I realized. There was a dam built upstream sometime in the late 1800’s that turned most of the area into a lake. It also formed this land into a peninsula of sorts. You can see what the area looked like before the dam on the 1857 map below the red outline is where the peninsula formed. You can see the old road on lidar that is on the topo maps. The building at the end of the road is the large barn cellar hole I think.
View attachment 2100177

There are 3 very distinct cellar holes here as you can see on the lidar.(red, purple & yellow circles) You can also see 2 of the buildings still standing in the 1953 aerial shot.(red & purple circles) the biggest cellar hole(red) I believe was a barn, so it is full of big iron and i had to move on. The majority of my finds were around these 3 cellar holes.
View attachment 2100178

The 1900 topo shows a building at the very top of this hill.(blue circle) so I thought it would be easy to locate even without a cellar hole. I was wrong, I searched all over the top of the hill and couldn’t find anything. no iron or trash or anything. Looking at the lidar though it looks like there was some activity in the upper east area. (Green circle) To me it looks like an old road to a home site. I can’t find anything on the oldest accurate topo map of the area, 1857. So this might be an older homestead site next to the river. It would have been close to the river before the dam was built, then under. water after it was built. The dam gave way sometime in my lifetime, so the lake drained and water levels dropped. I didn’t see this on the lidar until I was home last night composing this post. So I’ll be going back there and searching that area.
View attachment 2100187

These old topo maps aren’t always the most accurate. I have found buildings that should be on the 1857 map that are not. so my best guess is the 3 cellar holes are from the late 1800’s. But there could have been activity here as far back as the late 1600’s up until about 1960. So here are my finds from yesterday.
View attachment 2100204
All of them together

View attachment 2100205
#1 & #4 are toy axes I guess? I’m not sure how #4 attached.
#2 & #3 are buckles that i think our friend the horsey dropped

View attachment 2100206
#5 a thimble?
#6 ?

View attachment 2100207
#7 is a bell but what kind? It looks more modern than most I have found.
#8 is a piece of a Crotal bell

View attachment 2100208
#9 is the smallest bell I have ever found. This would be called a sleigh bell right? What is it made out of?

View attachment 2100209
#10 is a suspender clip.

View attachment 2100210
#11 is a baby’s ring i think. Any info on this would be appreciated. not sure if there use to be 3 stones in it?

View attachment 2100211
Then various drawer pulls and a valve handle. I think I have seen #12 in some horsey stuff before as well?

Very Cool!!! Great Research!!! Congrats!!!

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

I didn’t realize you were questioning the origin of the word crotal.
It is deriven from Gaelic and means Bell or rattle. So crotal bell is a redundant term, like tall giant or smart genius. I’m led to believe the word was in use prior to 1000 a.d.

I wasn't talking about the origin of the word. I was saying what makes it a crotal bell compared to a sleigh bell? Why do you call one bell a crotal and another a sleigh bell. I thought it had to do with the size of the bell, and how it was attached? So i was asking does the shank style make it a crotal bell?

DownEast, your little hatchet might be a salesman sample. In the early days traveling salesmen carried small versions of what they were selling. It saved weight and space.

Thats a really good idea pa plateau! Apparently they are worth money and are rare. LOL, probably not sense these are all asking prices. I love how the people selling them aren't even entirely sure what they are. Almost all of them somewhere in the description they say It's either a sample or a toy. ha ha

Small bells were used on straps that went around a horse as part of the harness. They jingled as the horse moved, alerting people along the way. They also sounded nice. They are part of horse tack today.

Yes Almy, i always thought those were called sleigh bells because they were smaller and the way they were attached. I thought crotal bells were always only a single bell hung around the neck of an animal. As opposed to sleigh bells which are usually smaller and strung close together on a leather strap or harness?

The tiny axe is a puzzler. It has all the proportions of a simple rectangular axe with a wedge shape that I often associate with the task of splitting, such as for kindling. But yours is so small that it is probably not a practical tool and the explanation of its being a salesman's sample makes sense. Or someone might be able to suggest a use as some sort of bench axe in a carpenter's or cabinetmaker's shop.

Yes way to small to be practical for any kind of splitting, cutting, etc... I do like the salesman sample idea. Besides that, a kids toy its the only thing that makes sense. And im leaning towards salesman sample

I really like your informative and detailed posts, by the way. The site research is intriguing and numbering all the samples and photographing them with a ruler is really helpful. The quality of the photos is excellent, too. Good work and thanks for sharing!

Thanks Almy, that means a lot. I try to lay everything out in a complete and comprehensive manner. I figure it may help a novice see how 1 +1 =2 or how picked a site.
I think the numbering is helpful for everyone viewing the post. It lets everyone have a conversation about a certain piece way easier. I cant tell you how many times ill see a picture of 10, 15, 20+ finds in one picture. And yes a lot of people tell you everything they found. But unless you know exactly what that thing looks like and all the variations of it. It can be hard to say the well is that the 7th one down, 4th the across one?
Quality of the photos is very important to me. I feel to accurately describe a find without it in the persons hand, you need well lit and in focus shots. All my pictures are just from my iphone X which came out in 2017. But these type of close up shots are really the only kind a phone camera lens is good at. The further something is away from you the crappier the picture will be. Its hard to pack a good telephoto lens into a cell phone. We are getting there though. Anyway im a photographer with a much better camera, but its just way easier to do on my phone. The workflow is way simpler, no sd cards into computer, photoshop, etc.
The ruler is just a crime scene square or L-square ruler i found online and printed off a copy. It took me awhile to get it exactly correct with a real inch. But once i did i saved it and printed off a dozen on 4x6 photo paper. They are stiffer and stronger than paper and have held up well.
Here are a few pics i took but not with my cell phone. Of course they are down down rez'ed and tiny compared to originals.

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

went back to this little peninsula just for an hour or 2 after work today. I wanted to see if i could find out if that green section (circled in green above ☝️ ) Was indeed an old home site with a road leading to it. I found the depression you can see on lidar and it still had a little stone work exposed. There were also many iron signals around. So it is indeed an old house's cellar hole. Not many digable targets around so when i got a lead signal i dug it. Found this thimble, and noticed a rather purple rock in the hole. Im assuming it was just some rock someone found attractive and brought it back to their house. I will surely be back to this site. I can not find any maps with this building on it. Im thinking its probably 1800's like the rest of the sites on this peninsula but i dont know. Any way to date this site with the thimble? or this purple rock that is probably millions of years old? LOL

 

[robertk]

Nice! The rock almost looks like amethyst.

 

[Almy]

Thanks for the photography information. I too use a cell phone quite a bit. Mine is an Android. Surprising to me how good quality pictures it can take. I was a photographer when we used film, including some cameras with plate film. I don't think the quality was any better and it sure was a lot more complex than digital!
And portability is so important. I have my cell phone with me when I am detecting and don't want to carry a separate camera along.
The one thing I find hard is the movement of the cell phone that can occur as the shutter is pressed. I usually take several of the same thing for this reason and delete the blurry ones. When I want a real good closeup of something I have found, I usually use a regular digital camera set for closeups and mounted on a stand.
"Crotal" apparently refers to the sound these bells make. I just looked it up. I always thought it referred to their shape. So the name could probably be applied to many bells. They have been used for hundreds of years.
Your thimble looks like many I have found at homesteads that, from other evidence, I dated to around 1800, plus and minus maybe 20 years. There may be thimble experts that could add more information about them.

 

[glass half fool]

A wealth of old ,neat items that where part of everyday living a 150 years or more ago I love how you pulled all you info together to give a nice outline to how you ended up digging where you did And than displayed some of the nice relics you located And nice job of showing others how to discover good locations to dig .Makes for a nice post.

 

[DownEast_Detecting]

Nice! The rock almost looks like amethyst.

thanks robert. yeah my rock and gem knowledge is seriously lacking. Thats an area that needs improvement. So I have no idea what kind it is. Sure is purple though.

Thanks for the photography information. I too use a cell phone quite a bit. Mine is an Android. Surprising to me how good quality pictures it can take. I was a photographer when we used film, including some cameras with plate film. I don't think the quality was any better and it sure was a lot more complex than digital!
And portability is so important. I have my cell phone with me when I am detecting and don't want to carry a separate camera along.
The one thing I find hard is the movement of the cell phone that can occur as the shutter is pressed. I usually take several of the same thing for this reason and delete the blurry ones. When I want a real good closeup of something I have found, I usually use a regular digital camera set for closeups and mounted on a stand.
"Crotal" apparently refers to the sound these bells make. I just looked it up. I always thought it referred to their shape. So the name could probably be applied to many bells. They have been used for hundreds of years.
Your thimble looks like many I have found at homesteads that, from other evidence, I dated to around 1800, plus and minus maybe 20 years. There may be thimble experts that could add more information about them.

without getting into to much technical mumbo jumbo. and without starting an android vs apple war. lol
because i do use both. I much prefer a pc rather than a mac when it comes to a computer. But i have to say as far as cell phones go. The iphone is a magical piece of equipment. I have had both, and its true if you are really technical their are some things you can do with an android you cant with an iphone. But 95% of the population isnt even going to know what those are. The ease of use, how intuitive it is, and most important for me is photo quality. The lenses and software are so much better on an iphone. People have shot studio quality full length feature movies on their iphones. (with gimbles, cranes, dollys etc.. obviously) I never have those shutter speed problems you are talking about. It would have to be the perfect condition of super low light with a fast moving object to get a blurry pic on an iphone. well that is as long as you understand focal point and some basic photography stuff. and obviously you can download camera apps that make your iphone work like a DSLR big boy camera.(see pic below) Bottom line everything is faster, sharper and easier on an iphone. Its never going to "glitch" out on you.
the the other picture below was just a quick snap 10 years ago with my iphone 5s which only had 6mp camera. its not even that great a pic and needs editing but just to show you what an iphone could do 10 years ago with a 6mp camera.
I swear i dont work for apple. ✋ lol

"Crotal" apparently refers to the sound these bells make. I just looked it up. I always thought it referred to their shape. So the name could probably be applied to many bells.

I'm not entirely sure that is true. I really wish someone with more experience would jump in here.
ahem Red-Coat , CRUSADER, BuckleBoy,creskol

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read replies and posts above ☝️ or just look at my #9 pic and read below 👇need some clarification please.....
"I was saying what makes it a crotal bell compared to a sleigh bell? Why do you call one bell a crotal and another a sleigh bell. I thought it had to do with the size of the bell, and how it was attached? So i was asking does the shank style make it a crotal bell?"
So it’s definitely called a Crotal bell because…..The shank shape? Or something else?
"Yes Almy, i always thought those were called sleigh bells because they were smaller and the way they were attached. I thought crotal bells were always only a single bell hung around the neck of an animal. As opposed to sleigh bells which are usually smaller and strung close together on a leather strap or harness?"

​

A wealth of old ,neat items that where part of everyday living a 150 years or more ago I love how you pulled all you info together to give a nice outline to how you ended up digging where you did And than displayed some of the nice relics you located And nice job of showing others how to discover good locations to dig .Makes for a nice post.

thank you so much glass half fool. i put a little extra into these posts, so it means a lot to get positive feedback.