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Updated! Is this a turtle? Or am I dreaming?

the waterfalls are one of the best kept secrets of the dragoons....locals will tell you "over there" and then expect you to find them on your own...lol.
i hope she posts some pics, i was down there at the wrong time to take any photos.
 

Lol, the falls aren't running right now, have to wait for Monsoon season to get a good pic, of course, it may be worth hiking up there and looking for signs lol

I saw a mountain lion too the first day I went out there looking for signs which is a very rare occurance as they usually see you first...kind of nixed my plans to get closer to the heart because I was by myself...

Interesting story about Pancho Villa's march and the lost cannons......
 

i'd be after those cannon now if the border wasn't so tense.
i found an obscure footnote in a little read review of pancho's 1915 campaign through sonora, i was researching the columbus attack...the reference stated villa's troops lost 7, read it seven, french mountain howitzers....
boy, did the treasure seeker in me perk up...i have been down that way, but, the mexican troops/police are security for the drug dealers, and it makes communication a bit difficult...
'see captain, i was just going to load up these cannon and head north...'
 

Jeff from Pa, Moderator said........
I Am getting very tired of the Negativity Sad

There is nothing wrong with Giving personal opinions on
possable signs. But trying to put a Negative spin
on the Posters Beliefs is wrong.

Those who are Negative Sometimes are easy to tell from
those who are Negative all the time & Should be Ignored

Those who have nothing Constructive to add.... shouldn't
Click to expand...

WELL SAID - WELL PUT - SORELY NEEDED......

Amen
rangler
 

A little perspective.........

When people see things in rocks, there are the hard core objectors who operate
on a mandated agenda. We know this to be true in its consistency. It is very
rude, unprofessional and not needed on a treasure hunting forum, to say the least

You can read my many posts where I have made this point over and over again.
These few posters are ruining this site, Thanks to the Moderator for putting a stop
to this "over the top negativity"

When these HCTD's (hard core treasure denyers) play the "Pareidolia" card they have this
smug belief that they are the first to understand term and its meaning, like they found
the weak link in the treasure hunters understanding of signs and symbols, nothing could
be further from the truth. The Jesuits/Spanish knew damn well that the "background
fractuals and the geo glyphs and geo facts where the perfect "cameo" to hide their signs
in PLAIN SITE!

This is REASON for the confirmation signs and marks! Without confirmation you are just
looking at the background camo or pareidolia. The phantasmagorical shapes that rocks
and boulder take in certain areas of the world are just that! Except for the confirmation
marks.

Case in point, the heart that Kimme posted at first glance looks natural, and in this case
I kinda agree. You don't hear me say that very often, but the Spanish used a certain
style of heart to seperate out from all the natural heart shapes that Mother Nature makes.
I will not elaborate at this time, but if you do you own research, just on this site you will
see the shape emerge. This heart of Kimmes does not have that shape. Too symetrical.Even
still it warrants futher investigation, in light of the turtles etc.

The turtles and the hearts, I can only speak to the ones with confirmation marks. The
heart with the "H" . My understanding and the general agreement is that the H is the tunnel
sign, more exactly a false tunnel...one that goes back and seems to end..then a false wall
on the other side the tunnel continues... My own experience has taught me that all signs
have double and ultimately triple (trinity) meanings. High Point is the other meaning
for the "H"

Some hints.. when anyone sees something, turtle, etc. look closer for chiseled marks in the
shape of faces, animals, humans, indians, snakes, letters, numbers etc..these ARE the confimation
that the turtle is REAL without at least hoyo (hole where you see the blue sky) then it is just
the Pareidolia that the Jesuits counted on to confuse the unwary.

The real damage comes from the naysayers who call everything a fractal or a geo-glyph as a tactic.
This warfare by these unknown entities, is uncalled for unneeded and unwarranted.

The only wildcard is that some here have expressed to me that these one or more of these naysayers
are really 'fisherman' and are goading people into telling more than they might want to reveal.

I rest my case
rangler

"it is much too easy to be negative and tear things down, takes no thought, no effort, no knowledge -
but to build something, takes effort, work, experience, dedication, thought, follow thru and tenacity"
 

Well said Ranger, I believe that Treasure Hunters are optimists, the "glass half full" type people. And when someone is constantly tearing you down, well, it weighs heavy.

While not all critisism is bad, (after all, I'm such an optimist, that I'll see signs everywhere I look because I want to.. ) I choose to ignore people that are always negative, and listen to those with constructive critisism. For instance, since I am a total newbie at this, I am unable to tell what IS real and what is natural. A post of "Pareidolia" with nothing else said is absolutely no help at all to us newbies, but a post of "Pareidolia because of this factor or that factor" is what I'll look for and keep in mind while I'm out there.

All forums that I have been on have negative people on them, and there is only one way to stop them, and that's to ignore them. When you respond, it gives them power.

Okay, back to learning..... will ALL markers have confirmations on them, or just a few of them to let you know you're on the right trail or what? Should I just walk around out there and look for a confirmation rock first and then pick up a trail, or can I start with a rock that looks made but has no confirmations on it and follow it to see if I find one with confirmation on it? (Is that a waste of time?)

P.S., I am so glad to have found this section of the forum, the exercise alone is a treasure in itself, not to mention the beauty of the mountains that I've never seen by staying on the main trails!
 

On this kind of rock the Spanish would smooth the rock with a harder grindstone too erase the chisel marks so there is some doubt too weather it is man made or not. They knew that only the one's who were trained to know what was a sign would know for sure. I have found one of the tools for smoothing the cuts and it works very well. The only time I have seen full chisel marks is when a cross or letter is cut even then as old as some of them are the weather wears them down alot. I saw some chisel marks cut two inches deep in solid rock cut as clean as a knife cutting butter there are not too many chisels made today that can do that to rock this hard. The Spanish knew very well what they were doing.

Minetres
 

minetres, that's pretty interesting that you've found tools that smooth the rocks! Never heard of that, I would've just figured they wouldn't have taken the time... I'm always learning something new here!! Thanks Guys!!!
 

Their are real treasure hunters who post and just watch this site always looking for new information and some never post. Their are also people looking for real information and are asking for help so now I have made some post only too share some knowledge I don't care if any one believes what I have too say but the information is there for anyone too use. For those of you who don't want to learn it's your loss you will never change the minds of those people who are really out there enjoying the hunt and finds.

Minetres
 

Kimmie said......

"Okay, back to learning..... will ALL markers have confirmations on them, or just a few of them to let you know you're on the right trail or what? Should I just walk around out there and look for a confirmation rock first and then pick up a trail, or can I start with a rock that looks made but has no confirmations on it and follow it to see if I find one with confirmation on it? (Is that a waste of time?)"


The first step will be the unusual shape that is displayed, just as you are doing. On your first trip, to recon the area, do just
exactly what you did, notice them , take the pics.

Hints: 1.Try to take all pics around High Noon - give or take an hour
You are looking for the other half of the data - that is the shadows!

2.Stand with your back to the Sun whenever you can to get the pics

3.Notice any Hoyos, and stand square with them - so that you see the
most blue sky exposed. Have nothing in front of you like bushes etc.

4.You will not be able to see most signs when you stand there and
look at the rocks, trust me on this, it woud take many many years
to do this and most th's cannot see them all in real life.

5.Take the pics to your pc, zoom in on all pic, crawl over the rock
face like an ant!

6. Look for faces, owls, numbers, letters, snakes, shadows,diamonds,
holes, circles, triangles, the letter A, C, D,E ,F and H. Even look for
cartoon images, yes I know but dont listen to them.

7. Once you have seen confirmation marks, try to identify the Alpha
Monument, it will be the largest one with perhaps a hoyo and some
others marks.

8. This will lead you to the Omega Monument, smaller more subtle
but has its own peculiarities - I will go into that later when you
get that far down the trail.

Remember - dont lose focus trying to find or follow the regular trails and the trail
markers, they are long haul roads that traverse the area, you want the trail that
leads to the mine, and caches related to the mine, however they got
there. The Spanish moved or navigated from high point to high point, get the topo
spot the high points in your immediate area, plot your markers on this map.

Of course you will have to intersect the long haul trail, but look for the unusual
boulders or outcroppings, the Janus marker is the begining of the treasure trail.
This is the Greek God of the Gatekeeper, you recognize him by having two faces
one looking one way and one looking the other. Most Classic Spanish Treasure
Trails start with the Janus monument.

Your tools will be tops maps, compass, dividers, rulers, protractor, camera with
at least 5 megapixels, note pad, binocs, common sense, logic, an investigative
mind, determination, tenacity, objectivity-and FAITH!

You wouldn't need much skepticism though - as this forum has plenty of professionals!!!

----



Is it fair to make such claims under the guise of learning without offering any sort of supporting documentation?
Click to expand...
The short answer is NO.
THE REAL ANSWER IS YES!!! Our "supporting documentation" is what we are looking for and we cant
tell you that without opening ourselves up to the horrors of bureaucratic totalitarianism!

You attitude to is to treat treasure hunting like some high school science project - it does not fit that template.
wrap your head around the fact that people who buried goods like the Spanish did not immediately write a
'White Paper' and makes footnotes to tell you where the goodies were buried, just so you can quite easily
prance along and uncover the goods. Your academic training and subsequent attitude, serves its purpose
in the regular world of academe BUT not in the world of treasure hunting.


------

springfield says...

"Real treasure hunters will not be posting here you know - only those who want attention."

I am afraid that you are wrong on two points , Real treasure hunters who know that they have
more sites that they can work in two lifetimes, will come here to help others , at least the non-greedy
ones will., And two..YOU are here , so is that true of you too - you are NOT a real treasure
hunter? HA Careful what you proclaim, you might catch yourself in that same net!

auferioiusly
rangler


C16 "Be on your guard; stand firm in the faith; be men of courage; be strong."........1 Corinthians 16:13
 

Hi kimmie,

It took me a few months before i started recognizing confirmation markers. I think it depends on how weathered the rock is, and also recognizing that a figure is a carving and not natural AND has some useful meaning. I suppose treasure books help with that second and third aspect.

If you are lucky after a few or a lot of visits you will start getting a feel for how the "artist" thought and did things. One day they will just start popping out at you :) Now there may be quicker ways, get some of the books recommended in various places on this site for example. But i am taking a more leisurely approach as ,my goal is slightly different than looking only for the pot at the end of the rainbow.

What i have seen so far is that carvings may have definite directional meaning, or they may be a double or even triple confirmation that the larger stone formation is there for a reason and not natural. Finally, they may give a warning.

So far i have found a spring and also some other things of interest by following "imagined" markers and carvings. So, take your time, sit and just look around for a good long while. I'm not into the omega and alpha thing myself, mainly because there seems to be plenty of other information giving signs on my site. I've not noticed what i would consider an alpha/omega in all its glory and with confirming finds, though there may be one or more there.

I guess there are a few different approaches to this hobby, and there is no one "right" answer. For me right now, on my first site, i continue to follow pointers ,marks and formations, one to another and just starting a bit of surveying to get a layout of how they relate on a map.

That seems to be working quite well for me, so no reason to change the methodology so far.
 

You guys that take your time to help a newbie on here are all awesome! I plan to go out to the site Monday after finals and take everyone's advice about getting a lot closer looking for confirmation signs. Right now, I'm trying to get an overview of the whole area (it's pretty large), and in the meantime, doing research about the area....

So, while I study for finals, I'll leave ya'll with a new pic to play with....could be graffiti, or could be a sign. There are petroglyphs all over these rocks, but this cross looks "newer" than those. (this is not in the same area as the other pics I have posted..in fact not even in those mountains, but close to me...)
 

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P.S., there are some AC+JS graffitti on the rock below which says it might be graffitti, and someone else put their initials and 1941 on it, but the petroglyphs are real, and the cross looks older than the initials, but newer than the petroglyphs, let me know what ya think!
 

Kimmie,

In this picture you have a small burial site to the left of the writing you have several rocks telling you their is something hidden there is or was a small cache. The one rock at the top has what looks like a "L" cut into it upside down. Below that their is a triangular rock sitting in a shelf and to the right of the upside "L" is a square image chiseled on the face of the rock. I have seen these symbols many times before telling you to look and study directly below them their is a hiding place it may have allready been cleaned out but if you search this area you will find the spot. Remember you don't have to have a large space too hide a valuable treasure.

Minetres
 

Rangler, Of all the post I have read from you including personal Emails, Post # 77 above is the most informative, Inspirational and TRUE. Especially the last line. :thumbsup:


What you write here I have countless times verified in the field.


May God Bless You and continue to Guide you my Brother !!!
 

In the center of the last pic,, behind the bush,, there is a stone that looks to be shaped like an ancient shaped pot,, maybe whatever goodies are buried there, are in a pot?? Good Luck Kimmie!! TD
 

Well Kimme
You posted what looks like an Alpha Monument! While some close ups of the cross area and
the other marks would be needed to be sure, what you have there is subtle non the less real.

Your instincts about the cross being newer than the petrglyps makes sense, in that the Spanish
would use the work that the Amerindians did and use a "sacred" spot to insure their marks
would not be defaced. Any mark left here, the Indians would think the Gods did it.. any white
ment would think the Indians did. The perfect logic that would hide stuff for centuries.

Now look at the cross..it is 'pointing' down and if if you follow the 'line' you will see it points
exactly to a tilted 'heart' shadow!! (just like I meantioned in post #77) and thanks for taking
the suggestion to stand with your back to the sun.) This heart is your treasure sign that
confirms that you have an Alpha Monument!! Nice huh? I think you are a natural born treasure
hunter!
The letters AC & JC, might be later grafitti as you suggest, BUT a close up pic will tell more..and
dont forget that these are the letters that I told to be on the look out for!!

Also the same with the 1941, while this sounds like a date, MOST of the time they are NOT.
carefully expamine these marks and see if the patina or desert varish has overlain them.

Now look at the upper left side of the rock face, notice the dark shadow at the top of the
rock, look at the while the shape of an owl takes shape in your brain..haha. see it?
This was meant to stand out as it is surrounded by black shadow, while the owls shape
is in full sun. The contrast, is what the Spanish did to "hide it" in plain site..as we are
trained since birth to ignore shadows, and only notice what the sun shines on. This owl
along with the shadow heart make up the bulk of the marks needed to convey that you
indeed do have a Alpha Monument on your hands!

Now before 'run away with your self' realize that this marker was laid down from 150-300
years ago and it may have done its job, and that is to direct the Kings men back to this
spot to retrieve the goods, that the Jesuits or others where required to pay the 20% tax.

But even if the goods are long gone, your discovery is a real treasure in itself! You have
history displayed here so perfectly crafted in the lost art of monument building. And we
thanks to you, have the chance to use it as a learning/teaching tool, to help you and
other serious treasure hunters and reseachers to find more of these monuments, which
increases your chances of finding one that was not cleaned out by the Kings men!


tesoro dog said:
"In the center of the last pic,, behind the bush,, there is a stone that looks to be shaped
like an ancient shaped pot.." TD"

Good eye there TD, I can see what you mean, but the real shape is that of the owl again...
of course that is one of the reasons that the Spanish picked that shape, is the the ancient
jar shape mimicked the body of the owl thus giving birth to the owl as 'cache site' sign.

Kimme, this is a good find, try to post some close up pics of the cross, the initials and the
letters if you will..
Try now to remember that this rock is telling you what to look for at the Omega Monument
-the two things are Distance and Direction! to find the Omega, and in some ways WHAT to
look for to identify the Omega.
You can enlarge this pic, and frame it and hang in on your wall with pride! Good Job!
auferiously
rangler


D29 "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed
belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."...........Deuteronomy 29:29,
 

Victorio wrote...
Rangler, Of all the post I have read from you including personal Emails, Post # 77
above is the most informative, Inspirational and TRUE. Especially the last line.
What you write here I have countless times verified in the field.
May God Bless You and continue to Guide you my Brother !!!

Thanks for the kind words Victorio- I wish you continued success on your projects
you have good instincts and good eye for understanding what the Spanish were doing
most of the credit goes to you!- with the Good Lord willing - I know that you will get to
see the fruits of your labor!

----

Kimme,
I noticed a few more things on your monument, a total of 3 owls, a dog, a mans face,
two hearts, a backward "7" near the second heart and

a very large but subtle eagle face, telling me (most likely) that your Omega monument
is due south of this location, and the confirmation will be when you take a compass out
to the spot and take a bearing on the Cross..it will be oriented on a N/S axis...just a few
degrees off true North.
My other observation is that this monument is from the later Colonial period of the Spanish
era, as this is a very subtle and minimalist monument. Mostly likely from late 18th century
up to the 1767 expulsion.

This is a beautiful and perfectly executed piece of craftsmanship by the Spanish masons.
Everyone , from pros to new-bees can learn from this one, Thanks for posting it.
auferiously
rangler




D12"Knowledge shall be increased" ........ Daniel 12:4
 

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