Video 6 - On Tumlinsons Trail : The Peralta Stone Maps

[RG1976]

We don't know much about the manuscript except what the cover looks like and some basic (and confidential) information of its contents. Garry supplied it to me. It was shot in 2011.

Don't have much to add outside of that. But let's get that portion out of the way - so we are all on the same page. Don't want any confusion or people to jump to any conclusions. If I had the full manuscript - I would have most certainly used it in the video!

It seems that people think I have the entire manuscript in its entirety - I don't!

 

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[somehiker]

Makes sense why you'd come to that assumption. Makes logical sense.

Sh: what'd you think of the writing style on the cover compared to the horse / witch / priest map

From what I have heard, Greg has all kinds of easter eggs amongst all that stuff.
No tellin what you might find, or where.

There are both similarities and differences. Unlike script which is usually consistent through lengthy stages of an individuals lifetime....youth/adult/geriatric and of course those deceased who vote early and often....block style lettering of this kind can vary, depending on both artistic skill and motivation. Was it something done quick and dirty, or something he put a lot of effort into ? It's hard to say, but judging from the exceptional (relative to many other non-professionally drawn maps) artistry evident in the depictions of the horse and priest, as compared to the chimney art and even the somewhat better Chest and Ship stone, I would say "no way".

Once again, since I don't have time right now to post some of my own stuff, you could compare what's on the stones with examples found by doing a search for "old Mexican grave stones" or "old Mission gravestones for example. As I recall, I found some good examples in the "walking with the dead" video here...
Alamos Sonora Mexico

Tons of stone crosses and both script and block lettering.

Regards:SH.

 

[RG1976]

From what I have heard, Greg has all kinds of easter eggs amongst all that stuff.
No tellin what you might find, or where.

There are both similarities and differences. Unlike script which is usually consistent through lengthy stages of an individuals lifetime....youth/adult/geriatric and of course those deceased who vote early and often....block style lettering of this kind can vary, depending on both artistic skill and motivation. Was it something done quick and dirty, or something he put a lot of effort into ? It's hard to say, but judging from the exceptional (relative to many other non-professionally drawn maps) artistry evident in the depictions of the horse and priest, as compared to the chimney art and even the somewhat better Chest and Ship stone, I would say "no way".

Once again, since I don't have time right now to post some of my own stuff, you could compare what's on the stones with examples found by doing a search for "old Mexican grave stones" or "old Mission gravestones for example. As I recall, I found some good examples in the "walking with the dead" video here...
Alamos Sonora Mexico

Tons of stone crosses and both script and block lettering.

Regards:SH.

Pantograph and a coloring book for the witch / horse.

Peralta Tesora Mappa for the trails.

Then some added flair - of course.

What would it take for you, Wayne, to be convinced it was carved by under tumlinsons hand or his "associates" ?

In a court of law - you need 7 discrepancies or similarities to what you want to prove.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

John J. (Pegleg) Tumlinson 1848 - 1920 Travis Tumlinson's grandfather.

John Jackson Tumlinson 1882 - 1957 Travis Tumlinson's father.

I had always had the understanding Jane Tumlinson had her father (Travis) manuscript. And also that Kenneth Tumlinson has a copy of it.

Matthew

 

[DiggerGal]

Pantograph and a coloring book for the witch / horse.

Peralta Tesora Mappa for the trails.

Then some added flair - of course.

What would it take for you, Wayne, to be convinced it was carved by under tumlinsons hand or his "associates" ?

In a court of law - you need 7 discrepancies or similarities to what you want to prove.

Ryan,

With circumstantial evidence which is really what we are dealing with, what makes you think you need 7 discrepancies or similarities in order to prove something. All you really need is a preponderance of evidence to tip the scales in one way or another. It could be the weight of a feather, but the scales still tip.
You have been very compelling in your research, enough in my opinion to more than tip the scales.
Other than Malice on the part of the Tumlinsons, I see no gain to any other faction. I will watch the video again a few times just to make sure I absorbed all of the information you put forth for us to see.

 

[Old]

I think Ryan's video makes a compelling argument that the display stones and the bumper stones are not the same stones. I know that's a bitter pill for many. But; facts are facts and no amount of water, light, lens exposure, or angle can account for this......its not the same stone.



Questions do remain.

If there are "original stones" as shown on the bumper photo, where are they? How far back before copies were swapped for originals? Travis to Robert? Robert back to Travis? Mrs. T to Mitchell? or later?

The lettering discussion is also compelling. However, it concerns mainly the horse/priest stone. The provenience of this stone has always been questionable. I believe, there has been discussion, the Tumlinson family has said Travis carved this stone. He may well have carved them all. I don't doubt that he, or a combination of he and Robert, did carve them.

But; I believe he had a model. Ryan's video discusses this as well. Some time ago we discussed the likeness of the handwriting in the Peralta Tesora Mappa and Robert Tumlinson's handwriting. Today's video revelations just add more fuel to that fire. I don't think those comparisons are misplaced. I think they are right on the mark.

I'm waiting for the next shoe to fall and destroy the horse and stone map trails completely....but until that shoe falls, I continue to believe the stones themselves may be fake but the trails they depict are real. Regardless of what Travis/Robert may have done they both had a compelling reason to be around and among the Superstitions. An unforgiving area that doesn't give up her secrets willingly. Travis' health prohibited him from venturing long there but Robert spent considerable time and effort hunting for something. Its not a land one would choice to play out a drama for a long term scam. A more forgiving backdrop would have served the same purpose at much less wear and tear on the body. They were there because something they held took them there. Was it the Peralta Tesora Mappa? I think probably so.

Wayne, your information regarding Peg Leg is most interesting. I think if we put our collective effort behind sorting out what's to be gleaned of HIS background, travels and association we might get closer to the truth and closer to solving the mystery. Its amazing how far we have come. I know some of you more sage at the game already knew most of this but.....we HAVE come a long way in a relatively short time. Lets get after the rest of the story.

 

[vor]

Pantograph and a coloring book for the witch / horse.

Peralta Tesora Mappa for the trails.

It would be hard to argue with that!

Great video BTW. And thx for keeping the sponsorship a bit more discrete.

V

 

[sgtfda]

I think Ryan's video makes a compelling argument that the display stones and the bumper stones are not the same stones. I know that's a bitter pill for many. But; facts are facts and no amount of water, light, lens exposure, or angle can account for this......its not the same stone.

View attachment 1176692

Questions do remain.

If there are "original stones" as shown on the bumper photo, where are they? How far back before copies were swapped for originals? Travis to Robert? Robert back to Travis? Mrs. T to Mitchell? or later?

The lettering discussion is also compelling. However, it concerns mainly the horse/priest stone. The provenience of this stone has always been questionable. I believe, there has been discussion, the Tumlinson family has said Travis carved this stone. He may well have carved them all. I don't doubt that he, or a combination of he and Robert, did carve them.

But; I believe he had a model. Ryan's video discusses this as well. Some time ago we discussed the likeness of the handwriting in the Peralta Tesora Mappa and Robert Tumlinson's handwriting. Today's video revelations just add more fuel to that fire. I don't think those comparisons are misplaced. I think they are right on the mark.

I'm waiting for the next shoe to fall and destroy the horse and stone map trails completely....but until that shoe falls, I continue to believe the stones themselves may be fake but the trails they depict are real. Regardless of what Travis/Robert may have done they both had a compelling reason to be around and among the Superstitions. An unforgiving area that doesn't give up her secrets willingly. Travis' health prohibited him from venturing long there but Robert spent considerable time and effort hunting for something. Its not a land one would choice to play out a drama for a long term scam. A more forgiving backdrop would have served the same purpose at much less wear and tear on the body. They were there because something they held took them there. Was it the Peralta Tesora Mappa? I think probably so.

Wayne, your information regarding Peg Leg is most interesting. I think if we put our collective effort behind sorting out what's to be gleaned of HIS background, travels and association we might get closer to the truth and closer to solving the mystery. Its amazing how far we have come. I know some of you more sage at the game already knew most of this but.....we HAVE come a long way in a relatively short time. Lets get after the rest of the story.

I suspect Mitchell had the first copies made. Robert spent a lot of time in Millsite Canyon searching. He was not the only one. Garman his search parter for a time filed claims back there. Bob Wards nephew Bayy now owned one.

 

[DiggerGal]

Ryan,

You stated;
"As far as tumlinsons making money off their maps - I really don't believe they did - with the 100% intention to scam.
I wholeheartedly believe that they were on a mission to find something - and created the maps for Dr. Davis to finance them."

Here is where my mind wanders in two different directions:

1st- Finance them for what Making fake stones? They BELIEVED that there was something to be found. But what was the info they had to follow and what were they following? It is quite obvious that they would not venture out on fake stones, unless it was a diversion to discover something else that they couldn't provide compelling evidence with but had an amount of certainty that they could discover the said "treasure" if they were backed by deep pockets.
2nd- they were just plain lazy in the workforce and wanted to jump on the mining wave and ride it without regard to their own investment.

If I had to choose an option I would choose the first. They needed something or someone to back their venture and discovery without disclosing what they were following and "created" evidence to look authentic to their story.

Very interesting......

 

[sgtfda]

What would excite you more. A paper map or carved stone tablets.

 

[DiggerGal]

What would excite you more. A paper map or carved stone tablets.

I would choose the stones. Out of the ordinary and unique. Ingenious actually.

 

[sgtfda]

So you ready to invest? See!

 

[RG1976]

Tina -

It may be just splitting hairs on the word scam....because both of us seem to agree. When I think of a scam - I think of a wham-bam-thank you (fill in the blank). The Tumlinson's actually went out into the mountains. I haven't read any evidence where they profited - to me, profit is money you stick in your pocket - that is unrelated to "business expenses".

Option 1 is my position - but I'm unsure that the trail map is fake in its entirety. I believe the Peralta Tesora Mappa (PTM from here on out?) was their "master copy" and they carved enough on the Trail Map to get Dr. Davis involved enough to finance their trips from Oregon to Arizona.

The witch and horse map - I'm convinced, now more than ever, it was used to just get more investment funds from Dr. Davis. They left a clue on there

"find the heart - find the map"

Considering that Travis couldn't spell worth a damn, I think he was trying to say "if you can find the heart, then refer to the map - the PTM"

Ever seen the TV series, American Greed? This story would fit perfectly.

 

[azdave35]

Ryan,

You stated;
"As far as tumlinsons making money off their maps - I really don't believe they did - with the 100% intention to scam.
I wholeheartedly believe that they were on a mission to find something - and created the maps for Dr. Davis to finance them."

Here is where my mind wanders in two different directions:

1st- Finance them for what Making fake stones? They BELIEVED that there was something to be found. But what was the info they had to follow and what were they following? It is quite obvious that they would not venture out on fake stones, unless it was a diversion to discover something else that they couldn't provide compelling evidence with but had an amount of certainty that they could discover the said "treasure" if they were backed by deep pockets.
2nd- they were just plain lazy in the workforce and wanted to jump on the mining wave and ride it without regard to their own investment.

If I had to choose an option I would choose the first. They needed something or someone to back their venture and discovery without disclosing what they were following and "created" evidence to look authentic to their story.

Very interesting......

there have been many scammers in the supers over the years..conning investors out of millions...take crazy jake for example...he was caught and spent a few years in the big house

 

[sgtfda]

If you find the map then the location it refers to you will find this.
After all it was one of the Peralta's location maps.

 

[DiggerGal]

Tina -

It may be just splitting hairs on the word scam....because both of us seem to agree. When I think of a scam - I think of a wham-bam-thank you (fill in the blank). The Tumlinson's actually went out into the mountains. I haven't read any evidence where they profited - to me, profit is money you stick in your pocket - that is unrelated to "business expenses".

Option 1 is my position - but I'm unsure that the trail map is fake in its entirety. I believe the Peralta Tesora Mappa (PTM from here on out?) was their "master copy" and they carved enough on the Trail Map to get Dr. Davis involved enough to finance their trips from Oregon to Arizona.

The witch and horse map - I'm convinced, now more than ever, it was used to just get more investment funds from Dr. Davis. They left a clue on there

"find the heart - find the map"

Considering that Travis couldn't spell worth a damn, I think he was trying to say "if you can find the heart, then you'll know which map we used"

Ever seen the TV series, American Greed? This story would fit perfectly.

Not splitting hairs at all. We agree (although I love a great debate).
As far as profit goes, I get it, no evidence given leaves one to lead credence that there was no profit. Or, was there?

When scammers set out to deceive, the deception becomes so convoluted that the innocent (Dr. Davis presumably) withdraw...(at least a smart business man/woman would)

So there is no evidence that has been discovered that the Tumlinsons profited. What do we have as far as the financial records of Dr. Davis? Understanding that everything was hand written entries at that time, is there anything written in the Manuscript that would "Lead" one to believe a discovery no matter how small had been made to where Dr. Davis received some form of proceeds?

 

[cactusjumper]

If you find the map then the location it refers to you will find this. View attachment 1176745
After all it was one of the Peralta's location maps.

Frank,

Once again, some of that placer gold does not look like it came too far. Are you saying it came out of the Superstitions?

Take care,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

I have heard rumors Garman found a stash

 

[azdave35]

I have heard rumors Garman found a stash

yep...a big one

 

[sgtfda]

The Eastern Superstitions Joe right up the road from the Tumlinson search site