Video - Adventures in the Superstition Wilderness

[coazon de oro]

Bill - many members here have been to the pit mine. If my "source" gave me inaccurate information - I would have been called out already.

Further - I've met with this gentleman and have photos of him standing at the location. I have 100% trust in what I've seen.

If you don't - that's okay! Go film a video and prove us all wrong. It's not hard. You only need a cell phone that does video - just like what I do

Howdy Ryan,

It seems to me that you were influenced by your source on this one. I don't know what your objective was, whether to prove, debunk, or find the truth. If your objective was to find the truth, it did seem one sided with the choice of clues. You see, not every hole in the ground is a cache hole, and the mountains are full of ridges. Dog ears, like hearts are found everywhere, but to be honest with you, I don't know where the dog ear, and white mountain clues come from, in other words they are not well known Dutchman clues. The horse's head came from Julia's map I believe. The gun sight clue is not a Dutchman clue at all.

The gun sight clue was the idea of David Leach, it was what he believed Waltz's sketch to mean. David believed it was what one could see from the mine, but this is not so. Waltz said you had to climb a ways to see Weavers Needle to the South. Even if David was right, the highest point on Weaver's Needle is on the wrong side on his gun sight clue.

If you are after the truth, ask yourself if these well known Dutchman clues that describe the LDM, fit the Pit Mine:

Is the Pit Mine within five miles from Weaver's Needle?
Can you see Four Peaks Mountain to the North where the peaks look like one from the Pit Mine?
Do you have to climb a ways to see Weaver's Needle to the South from the Pit Mine?
Can you see the Military trail from the Pit Mine?
Is there a hideout cave 200 feet from the Pit Mine?
Is the Pit mine on a 12 foot ledge?
Can you reach the Pit mine only from the side, and not from above, or below?

It's not about taking sides, it's about finding the truth.

Homar

 

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[UncleMatt]

Homar,

In your opinion is the description including a funnel shape entrance a genuine clue, or also something invented after the dutchman died? If the mine is on a ledge, do you believe that includes a funnel shape in some way?

 

[RG1976]

Homar,

Thanks for that detailed post. You come up with a lot of good points. The clues to the legendary mine are mixed with equal amounts of drama as the entire Waltz story itself....so I am unsure which to believe in...and which are clues injected into legend to throw other would-be treasure seekers off their path.

I have done research on trying to find a good list of clues, and came across a post made by @roadrunner that lists out quite a few of them. I am unsure where Roadrunner got this list, perhaps he will chip in with some additional commentary.

I have "bold" the clues that I feel match the area - of course, take all of these clues with a grain of salt.

1. The mine is in the mountains, to the east where the Weaver's Needle is.

2. If you followed the shadow of Weaver's Needle at 4:00 o'clock, you could find the mine. (contradicts clue 1)

3. The mine lies within a five-mile radius of Weaver's Needle.

4. If I climb a little way, I can see the tip of Weaver's Needle.

5. The mine is in a north-south trending canyon in a gorge running east and west. (no gorge)

6. The mine is at the junction of two canyons.

7. It is in a gorge high up on a mountain.

8. I can see the military trail below.

9. You can see my mine from the cave but you cannot see the cave from my mine. Doubtful

10. The afternoon sun shines into my mine and illuminates the gold.

11. My mine is in a chimney formation. The mine starts as a chimney formation, but isn't part of a natural chimney formation.

12. My mine is a funnel-shaped pit with the large end up.

13. The ore is an 18-inch vein of rose quartz bearing one-third gold. (impossible to know after the people dug up the mine)

14. Below the mine is a tunnel that Don Miguel Peralta started, but he did not do any work on it. Neither did we. The ore was of a low grade. Unsure

15. You cannot find anything until you find the "Little Man". I haven't been given any photographs of a Little Man.

16. After you have located the "Little Man", continue up canyon until you find what appears to be a great cave with a two room house inside.

17. Across from this cave with the "rock house" is my mine. (The pit mine isn't "across" from the cliff dwellings, about 1.5 miles away.)

18. There is a great face that looks up to my mine. This face is in a rock formation.

19. There are three pines nearby. (perhaps in the 1800s?)

20. There is a burro's head that looks down at my mine.

21. There is a horse's head near the mine.

22. There is a stripped ironwood tree with a rock in the crotch of the branch that points to my mine. (perhaps in the 1800's)

23. I buried my mine from all miners so that no miner will ever find it. Ive read a few variants of this clue.

24. The old Spanish Trail goes right to the mine.

25. If you go beyond the three red hills, you have gone too far. (unsure on this clue)

26. My cave faces north.

27. I watered my burros at the old water hole.

28. If you find Wiser's grave, you have found my mine. I don't think anyone has found a grave out there?

29. I left the largest of three caches and removed the two smaller ones.

30. All I have to do is pick up the gold.


1. The Dutchman entered the Superstitions by way of Queen Creek or Whitlow Stage Road. (Queen Creek, no - Queen Valley, yes)

2. He always bought his supplies in Florence. ( Florence is close by)

3. He reported Wiser's death first in Florence. (unsure)

4. His partner had been a carpenter in Florence. (unsure)

5. Walz was followed by many to the vicinity of Randolph and Fraser Canyons, where he eluded them.

6. He often stayed in one of the "lugares" or a one room house located at the junction of Red tanks, Randolph and Fraser Canyons. (cliff dwellings)

7. The Dutchman and Wiser were seen coming out of the mountains by way of the Whitlow Stage Road with six heavily laden burros accompanied by two Mexicans on at least five occasions.

8. The old Spanish Trail, as well as a branch of the old military trail, comes over the Red Tanks Divide, around Randolph Canyon and then through Whitlow. (unsure)

9. Most of the old Dutchman hunters looked in the eastern part of the mountains. These people had more current data to go by.

10. The Dutchman always had a red stain on the knees of his trousers that would not come out when Julia Thomas washed them.


Homar - your clues

Is the Pit Mine within five miles from Weaver's Needle? YES
Can you see Four Peaks Mountain to the North where the peaks look like one from the Pit Mine? UNSURE
Do you have to climb a ways to see Weaver's Needle to the South from the Pit Mine? UNSURE ON DIRECTION OF TRAVEL, BUT IT IS VISABLE AS SEEN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH
Can you see the Military trail from the Pit Mine? YES
Is there a hideout cave 200 feet from the Pit Mine? UNSURE, BUT DONT BELIEVE SO.
Is the Pit mine on a 12 foot ledge? NO (how do you have a mine on a ledge that is funnel shaped?)
Can you reach the Pit mine only from the side, and not from above, or below? NO

 

[RG1976]

Here are more photos taken by Stroker393 about this same time last year, here on Tnet. They are on page's 6 & 7. Notice the shot where he is sitting down and his boots are hanging. That shot will show you how the pit mine has been since covered up - which is too bad! I'd love to go and film the entire mine.


http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...567-pit-mine-really-lost-dutchman-mine-6.html

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Ryan,

It seems to me that you were influenced by your source on this one. I don't know what your objective was, whether to prove, debunk, or find the truth. If your objective was to find the truth, it did seem one sided with the choice of clues. You see, not every hole in the ground is a cache hole, and the mountains are full of ridges. Dog ears, like hearts are found everywhere, but to be honest with you, I don't know where the dog ear, and white mountain clues come from, in other words they are not well known Dutchman clues. The horse's head came from Julia's map I believe. The gun sight clue is not a Dutchman clue at all.

The gun sight clue was the idea of David Leach, it was what he believed Waltz's sketch to mean. David believed it was what one could see from the mine, but this is not so. Waltz said you had to climb a ways to see Weavers Needle to the South. Even if David was right, the highest point on Weaver's Needle is on the wrong side on his gun sight clue.

If you are after the truth, ask yourself if these well known Dutchman clues that describe the LDM, fit the Pit Mine:

Is the Pit Mine within five miles from Weaver's Needle?
Can you see Four Peaks Mountain to the North where the peaks look like one from the Pit Mine?
Do you have to climb a ways to see Weaver's Needle to the South from the Pit Mine?
Can you see the Military trail from the Pit Mine?
Is there a hideout cave 200 feet from the Pit Mine?
Is the Pit mine on a 12 foot ledge?
Can you reach the Pit mine only from the side, and not from above, or below?

It's not about taking sides, it's about finding the truth.

Homar

homar.....there is no way to prove any of these or any other so called clues came from the dutchmans mouth....most of the "clues" we have came from julia..the petrash's and homes...and everyone knows all the b.s. maps julia was selling so we can discredit her right off the bat...homes and the petrash's looked for the mine till the day they died so any clues they gave are b.s. ...nobody is going to give any clues to a mine they are actively pursuing ...any clues they spread around are going to be for the sole purpose of throwing other people off the trail...and you should probably get permission from someone before putting their name up on a public forum

 

[cactusjumper]

IMHO, Ryan's source is just about as good as it gets.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

In your opinion is the description including a funnel shape entrance a genuine clue, or also something invented after the dutchman died? If the mine is on a ledge, do you believe that includes a funnel shape in some way?

Howdy UncleMatt,

In my opinion, the funnel shape entrance is a clue to the mine for which Ruth was given directions to. That would be the actual pit mine on the perfil map, and the mine that Apache Jack claimed was covered by them. Ruth however was trying to use Dutchman clues to find the pit mine. Jacob Waltz never mentions a tunnel below his mine. He said he made the portal wider, 2.5' x 2.5' in order to cover his mine. That does fit better on a ledge, than a funnel shaped mine that was said to be 75' across.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar, or anyone, If you have the coordinates and directions to the Pit Mine site PM me I'll go there take samples, metal detect, or what ever to prove the site had gold. There should be some evidence laying around it.

I'm determined more then ever now to go there and see for myself.

I'm sure I can find the place.

Let me know Homar and if anyone else wants to go PM me we'll do it!

I have the gear and resources lets do it.

I'm serious any takers?

Howdy Bill,

Just follow the shadows dude. Sorry Amigo, I only have the general area because I don't have to go there to know it's not the LDM.

Homar

 

[copperpot]

Homar, or anyone, If you have the coordinates and directions to the Pit Mine site PM me I'll go there take samples, metal detect, or what ever to prove the site had gold. There should be some evidence laying around it.

I'm determined more then ever now to go there and see for myself.

I'm sure I can find the place.

Let me know Homar and if anyone else wants to go PM me we'll do it!

I have the gear and resources lets do it.

I'm serious any takers?

It's getting hot out. Will you go out this spring or wait till next winter?

 

[coazon de oro]

Homar,

Thanks for that detailed post. You come up with a lot of good points. The clues to the legendary mine are mixed with equal amounts of drama as the entire Waltz story itself....so I am unsure which to believe in...and which are clues injected into legend to throw other would-be treasure seekers off their path.

I have done research on trying to find a good list of clues, and came across a post made by @roadrunner that lists out quite a few of them. I am unsure where Roadrunner got this list, perhaps he will chip in with some additional commentary.

I have "bold" the clues that I feel match the area - of course, take all of these clues with a grain of salt.

1. The mine is in the mountains, to the east where the Weaver's Needle is.

2. If you followed the shadow of Weaver's Needle at 4:00 o'clock, you could find the mine. (contradicts clue 1)

3. The mine lies within a five-mile radius of Weaver's Needle.

4. If I climb a little way, I can see the tip of Weaver's Needle.

5. The mine is in a north-south trending canyon in a gorge running east and west. (no gorge)

6. The mine is at the junction of two canyons.

7. It is in a gorge high up on a mountain.

8. I can see the military trail below.

9. You can see my mine from the cave but you cannot see the cave from my mine. Doubtful

10. The afternoon sun shines into my mine and illuminates the gold.

11. My mine is in a chimney formation. The mine starts as a chimney formation, but isn't part of a natural chimney formation.

12. My mine is a funnel-shaped pit with the large end up.

13. The ore is an 18-inch vein of rose quartz bearing one-third gold. (impossible to know after the people dug up the mine)

14. Below the mine is a tunnel that Don Miguel Peralta started, but he did not do any work on it. Neither did we. The ore was of a low grade. Unsure

15. You cannot find anything until you find the "Little Man". I haven't been given any photographs of a Little Man.

16. After you have located the "Little Man", continue up canyon until you find what appears to be a great cave with a two room house inside.

17. Across from this cave with the "rock house" is my mine. (The pit mine isn't "across" from the cliff dwellings, about 1.5 miles away.)

18. There is a great face that looks up to my mine. This face is in a rock formation.

19. There are three pines nearby. (perhaps in the 1800s?)

20. There is a burro's head that looks down at my mine.

21. There is a horse's head near the mine.

22. There is a stripped ironwood tree with a rock in the crotch of the branch that points to my mine. (perhaps in the 1800's)

23. I buried my mine from all miners so that no miner will ever find it. Ive read a few variants of this clue.

24. The old Spanish Trail goes right to the mine.

25. If you go beyond the three red hills, you have gone too far. (unsure on this clue)

26. My cave faces north.

27. I watered my burros at the old water hole.

28. If you find Wiser's grave, you have found my mine. I don't think anyone has found a grave out there?

29. I left the largest of three caches and removed the two smaller ones.

30. All I have to do is pick up the gold.


1. The Dutchman entered the Superstitions by way of Queen Creek or Whitlow Stage Road. (Queen Creek, no - Queen Valley, yes)

2. He always bought his supplies in Florence. ( Florence is close by)

3. He reported Wiser's death first in Florence. (unsure)

4. His partner had been a carpenter in Florence. (unsure)

5. Walz was followed by many to the vicinity of Randolph and Fraser Canyons, where he eluded them.

6. He often stayed in one of the "lugares" or a one room house located at the junction of Red tanks, Randolph and Fraser Canyons. (cliff dwellings)

7. The Dutchman and Wiser were seen coming out of the mountains by way of the Whitlow Stage Road with six heavily laden burros accompanied by two Mexicans on at least five occasions.

8. The old Spanish Trail, as well as a branch of the old military trail, comes over the Red Tanks Divide, around Randolph Canyon and then through Whitlow. (unsure)

9. Most of the old Dutchman hunters looked in the eastern part of the mountains. These people had more current data to go by.

10. The Dutchman always had a red stain on the knees of his trousers that would not come out when Julia Thomas washed them.


Homar - your clues

Is the Pit Mine within five miles from Weaver's Needle? YES
Can you see Four Peaks Mountain to the North where the peaks look like one from the Pit Mine? UNSURE
Do you have to climb a ways to see Weaver's Needle to the South from the Pit Mine? UNSURE ON DIRECTION OF TRAVEL, BUT IT IS VISABLE AS SEEN IN THE PHOTOGRAPH
Can you see the Military trail from the Pit Mine? YES
Is there a hideout cave 200 feet from the Pit Mine? UNSURE, BUT DONT BELIEVE SO.
Is the Pit mine on a 12 foot ledge? NO (how do you have a mine on a ledge that is funnel shaped?)
Can you reach the Pit mine only from the side, and not from above, or below? NO

Howdy Ryan,

Many of the clues out there have been made up by others, some contradict each other, so it is easy to pick some that fit ones area. There is a list of 100 clues for finding the LDM, but I don't have it saved. On that list of clues, it has the source for each, such as "No Miner will find my mine" (Waltz). You will find that very few of few that come from Waltz actually describe the mine. This is also true of the clues coming from Rhiney, so most of the others can be thrown out the window.

This is why I said the better known Dutchman clues that describe the mine. In the Barks notes I believe, Rhiney tells of a square rock that is waist high which is close to the mine. Is there such a rock close to the Pit Mine?

It is my understanding that the Pit Mine is more like 9 miles from Weaver's Needle, so you may want to verify this. The Apache trail was verified to be the Military trail in an interview by Sims Ely with a retired Calvary officer. I don't believe you can see it from the Pit Mine. In fact nothing describing the LDM fits the Pit Mine.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

homar.....there is no way to prove any of these or any other so called clues came from the dutchmans mouth....most of the "clues" we have came from julia..the petrash's and homes...and everyone knows all the b.s. maps julia was selling so we can discredit her right off the bat...homes and the petrash's looked for the mine till the day they died so any clues they gave are b.s. ...nobody is going to give any clues to a mine they are actively pursuing ...any clues they spread around are going to be for the sole purpose of throwing other people off the trail...and you should probably get permission from someone before putting their name up on a public forum

Howdy azdave35,

If you have no faith in any of the Dutchman clue being real, what is the purpose of your participation?

Some of the pictures on Ryan's video are courtesy of David Leach, especially the gun sight picture. It was what David could see from the Pit Mine, and it was his caption. It has been posted before in this forum, so why would I need his permission when he put it up for debate? If someone is going to create new clues that didn't come from the Dutchman, he should be held responsible. I believe this was your argument to begin with.

Homar

 

[RG1976]

Hi Homar!

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "many of the clues have been made up by others" - Including Julia Thomas at the onset of clue distribution to the public. I have no idea if the clues I posted are authentic, but its fun to see that the majority of them do match. They could be matching shadows in the ground as well - who knows? lol

The thing is - "everyone" thinks they know where the LDM is - and each one of those people "know" they are correct. I bet you could count hundreds - maybe thousands of people.

Do I know the Pit Mine is the LDM? Nope - I never would suggest that - either in type, or in my videos. I proposed a question in the video, and a poll here on TNet - to see what other people think.

You should check out the book by Ron Feldman called "Broken Mountain". Many believe, including his son Jesse, that the Pit Mine is infact the LDM. Joe R. referenced that in the "is the pit mine the LDM" thread here on Tnet. Joe has WAY more experience than me - keep in mind, I've only been around about 5-6 weeks. You should ask him what he thinks? Or maybe he will read this post.

Joe R. On a scale from 1-10.....10 being absolute.......is the pit mine the LDM according to your studies as well as what you've heard around "town".


Azdave35 said it best in his reply - I can't say it any better than he did (but I can still try) Whoever dug that site up - in the late 90's, surely believed there was something substantial there - that is obvious.

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Ryan,

Many of the clues out there have been made up by others, some contradict each other, so it is easy to pick some that fit ones area. There is a list of 100 clues for finding the LDM, but I don't have it saved. On that list of clues, it has the source for each, such as "No Miner will find my mine" (Waltz). You will find that very few of few that come from Waltz actually describe the mine. This is also true of the clues coming from Rhiney, so most of the others can be thrown out the window.

This is why I said the better known Dutchman clues that describe the mine. In the Barks notes I believe, Rhiney tells of a square rock that is waist high which is close to the mine. Is there such a rock close to the Pit Mine?

It is my understanding that the Pit Mine is more like 9 miles from Weaver's Needle, so you may want to verify this. The Apache trail was verified to be the Military trail in an interview by Sims Ely with a retired Calvary officer. I don't believe you can see it from the Pit Mine. In fact nothing describing the LDM fits the Pit Mine.

Homar

are you serious?....do you really think he had time or would waste his time giving someone 450,000 clues to his mine on his deathbed?.....he simply gave directions to the mine...julia and petrash just couldnt find the mine with his directions...neither of them had ever been out in the hills before and had no experience at this sort of thing..and they were so mad at not being able to find the mine they sure wernt going to tell anyone else what the dutchman told them..and as far as homes goes the dutchman didnt like him..so anything he told him was to send him on a goose chase....there are no clues that lead to that mine...all of them send you in circles...if the clues were worth a dern that mine would have been found in 1892....in other words you will never find that mine or any other by reading internet forums or looking at google earth

 

[azdave35]

Howdy azdave35,

If you have no faith in any of the Dutchman clue being real, what is the purpose of your participation?

Some of the pictures on Ryan's video are courtesy of David Leach, especially the gun sight picture. It was what David could see from the Pit Mine, and it was his caption. It has been posted before in this forum, so why would I need his permission when he put it up for debate? If someone is going to create new clues that didn't come from the Dutchman, he should be held responsible. I believe this was your argument to begin with.

Homar

maybe you should contact mr. leach and see what he thinks about you spewing his name around....where i come from its common courtesy to ask before you act...and as to your other question ...common sense tells most people these clues lead to nothing...or the mine wouldnt be lost...my guess is you have never been in the superstions or only been in a few times on the Forrest service trails...go spend a few years hunting the supers and then maybe i'll listen to what you have to say..until then your just another google earther

 

[coazon de oro]

are you serious?....do you really think he had time or would waste his time giving someone 450,000 clues to his mine on his deathbed?.....he simply gave directions to the mine...julia and petrash just couldnt find the mine with his directions...neither of them had ever been out in the hills before and had no experience at this sort of thing..and they were so mad at not being able to find the mine they sure wernt going to tell anyone else what the dutchman told them..and as far as homes goes the dutchman didnt like him..so anything he told him was to send him on a goose chase....there are no clues that lead to that mine...all of them send you in circles...if the clues were worth a dern that mine would have been found in 1892....in other words you will never find that mine or any other by reading internet forums or looking at google earth

Howdy azdave35,

I can see, and so can others, that my post went clear over your head.

Homar

 

[Tnmountains]

You would think there would have been a camp near the mine with older relics to be found with a metal detector. Might date an area that way. Good video the iPhone rocks.

 

[coazon de oro]

maybe you should contact mr. leach and see what he thinks about you spewing his name around....where i come from its common courtesy to ask before you act...and as to your other question ...common sense tells most people these clues lead to nothing...or the mine wouldnt be lost...my guess is you have never been in the superstions or only been in a few times on the Forrest service trails...go spend a few years hunting the supers and then maybe i'll listen to what you have to say..until then your just another google earther

Howdy azdave35,

Once again you failed to make sense of what I posted, and resort to accusations, needless lectures, and name calling? What happened to all the courtesy you claim to have?

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Howdy azdave35,

I can see, and so can others, that my post went clear over your head.

Homar

homar..i understood everything you said...you didnt understand me..

 

[Ponchosportal]

You would think there would have been a camp near the mine with older relics to be found with a metal detector. Might date an area that way. Good video the iPhone rocks.

If the Pit mine was previously exploited in modern time prior to the 1990s why was there still gold in the hole?

 

[Old]

Poncho,

I'm just speculating.......

Its remote, its protected under the Wilderness Protection Act, it has to be mined by hand or with light power tools, you have to carry in fuel (if used) and generators are noisy. You get what you can as easily as you can, and get out. Its more than a one man job. Teams have disputes, lips get loose, courage fails, job over.