Walt Gasslers Notes on Dutchman Legend

[azdave35]

bill...yes that is john.....on the front porch of the bluebird mine gift shop..he is no longer there as of this year....sadly his family had to come get him and take him home as he could no longer care for himself..due to the mercury poison that he has been suffering from for the last decade

 

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[Hal Croves]

mike..the mormon stope was called the mormon stope because it was discovered and worked in 1893 by a group of mormons (J.R. Morse, C.R. Hakes, Orrin Merrill and Orlando Merrill ) and they took a couple million out before the mine flooded...alfred strong lewis found the ironwood shaft in 1949 and i dont think he ever told anyone what he found in there ...i got this info from john wilburn many years ago....i plan on stopping by feldman's place next week...when i do i'll ask him what he knows about the story....he should have the straight story being as he owns the mammoth mine now

azdave,

What is the source for the above dates and details? Either you are misquoting or your source is a little confused.

 

[azdave35]

azdave,

What is the source for the above dates and details? Either you are misquoting or your source is a little confused.

i already gave my source....are you back?..i thought you were gone...lol

 

[Hal Croves]

i already gave my source....are you back?..i thought you were gone...lol

azdave35,

Here is your post to Mike:

"

Originally Posted by azdave35

mike..the mormon stope was called the mormon stope because it was discovered and worked in 1893 by a group of mormons (J.R. Morse, C.R. Hakes, Orrin Merrill and Orlando Merrill ) and they took a couple million out before the mine flooded...alfred strong lewis found the ironwood shaft in 1949 and i dont think he ever told anyone what he found in there ...i got this info from john wilburn many years ago....i plan on stopping by feldman's place next week...when i do i'll ask him what he knows about the story....he should have the straight story being as he owns the mammoth mine now"


Here is a quote from the Tom Kollenborn Chronicles:

Goldfield: An Arizona Centennial Treasure
February 6, 2012 © Thomas J. Kollenborn. All Rights Reserved.

"The mine was located shortly after a thunderstorm and flash flood on April 14, 1893. The discovery of the mine must be attributed to four men, C.R. Hakes, J. R. Morse, Orlando and Orrin Merrill. The Mammoth Claims and others were soon sold to C. I. Hall and Denny Sullivan, two Denver mining men, in early May of 1893."

Hall, by June 1893, had sunk a thirty-five foot shaft on the Mammoth, and had extended it to the depth of sixty-five feet by June 15, 1893. At the sixty-five foot level Hall drifted eastward ten feet without striking any rich ore. He then drifted westward and at a distance of thirty feet he struck a rich ore body. This strike became the famous Mormon stope.


Here is what actually happened:

"It is further set forth that on November 26th (here they are writing about the year 1892) of the same year O.D. Merrill, C.R. Hakes, J.R. Marse and Orlando Merrill located the Mammoth claim a copy of the notice of the location of which also appears in the complaint" "On June 27, 1893 the locators transferred the claim to the defendants, Messrs. Hall and Sullivan of Denver and Leadville, Colorado, and McCrea of Washington, D.C." 12/16/93 AZR

----------------------------

"Judge C.R. Hakes, of Mesa, has sold his mines in the Superstitions mountains to Chas. Hall, a Denver capitalist. Figures not given." July 6, 1893 SJH

---------------------------

So...... the Mammoth claim(s) site was discovered by Mormons on Nov. 26th of 1892 and the Mormon stope, discovered/worked by Messrs. Hall & Sullivan just after June 15, 1893.
Two weeks later, the mine is sold to Hail & Sullivan.

Millions in gold may have been recovered from the Mormon stope, but it was not by Mormons.
A heavy rain/flash flood may have revealed the Monmouth site, but it would have been in Nov. of 1892.

Plan on spending some time with the Feldmans.
Perhaps you will absorb something.

 

[azdave35]

azdave35,

Here is your post to Mike:

"

Originally Posted by azdave35

mike..the mormon stope was called the mormon stope because it was discovered and worked in 1893 by a group of mormons (J.R. Morse, C.R. Hakes, Orrin Merrill and Orlando Merrill ) and they took a couple million out before the mine flooded...alfred strong lewis found the ironwood shaft in 1949 and i dont think he ever told anyone what he found in there ...i got this info from john wilburn many years ago....i plan on stopping by feldman's place next week...when i do i'll ask him what he knows about the story....he should have the straight story being as he owns the mammoth mine now"


Here is a quote from the Tom Kollenborn Chronicles:

Goldfield: An Arizona Centennial Treasure
February 6, 2012 © Thomas J. Kollenborn. All Rights Reserved.

"The mine was located shortly after a thunderstorm and flash flood on April 14, 1893. The discovery of the mine must be attributed to four men, C.R. Hakes, J. R. Morse, Orlando and Orrin Merrill. The Mammoth Claims and others were soon sold to C. I. Hall and Denny Sullivan, two Denver mining men, in early May of 1893."

Hall, by June 1893, had sunk a thirty-five foot shaft on the Mammoth, and had extended it to the depth of sixty-five feet by June 15, 1893. At the sixty-five foot level Hall drifted eastward ten feet without striking any rich ore. He then drifted westward and at a distance of thirty feet he struck a rich ore body. This strike became the famous Mormon stope.


Here is what actually happened:

"It is further set forth that on November 26th (here they are writing about the year 1892) of the same year O.D. Merrill, C.R. Hakes, J.R. Marse and Orlando Merrill located the Mammoth claim a copy of the notice of the location of which also appears in the complaint" "On June 27, 1893 the locators transferred the claim to the defendants, Messrs. Hall and Sullivan of Denver and Leadville, Colorado, and McCrea of Washington, D.C." 12/16/93 AZR

----------------------------

"Judge C.R. Hakes, of Mesa, has sold his mines in the Superstitions mountains to Chas. Hall, a Denver capitalist. Figures not given." July 6, 1893 SJH

---------------------------

So...... the Mammoth claim(s) site was discovered by Mormons on Nov. 26th of 1892 and the Mormon stope, discovered/worked by Messrs. Hall & Sullivan just after June 15, 1893.
Two weeks later, the mine is sold to Hail & Sullivan.

Millions in gold may have been recovered from the Mormon stope, but it was not by Mormons.
A heavy rain/flash flood may have revealed the Monmouth site, but it would have been in Nov. of 1892.

Plan on spending some time with the Feldmans.
Perhaps you will absorb something.

hal ..you got all that nonsense out of a book...there is an entire thread on here about how full of crap books are...but if your back east ass wants to believe what you read go ahead..dont expect me to....you have never been here...all you know is what you scavenge off the internet....i got my info 30 years ago from the people that owned the mines...i'll believe them over you any day..by the way......are you still living in your car posting from a cell phone?

 

[gollum]

Roy,

The whole Ludy/Ludi Thing didn't come from Barry Storm. There was a letter to the editor of The Arizona Star on 22 July 1931:

This mine was first discovered in 1863 by a Mexican, named Peralta, of Chihuahua City,Mexico. In Tucson, two years after its original discovery, Peralta was making his second trip to
the mine when he met a native of Holland, Paul Ludy by name, and struck up a friendship with
him which resulted in Ludy being invited to join the party and to share in the profits of the trip.
En route to the mine, the party was attacked by Indians and completely routed and Ludy was
lost. After several days of hardships, he succeeded in reaching Tucson.
Jacobs, the second Dutchman, was a Confederate soldier under Lieutenant Jack Schwilling and
was wounded in the Battle of El Pichacho, the only battle of the Civil war fought on Arizona soil.
Left for dead, he later succeeded in reaching Tucson, where during his convalescence he met
Ludy, who had just returned from the disastrous mining expedition

The entire article posted by Garry:

WALTZ/LUDY

Now, the guy that wrote that letter got several things wrong (including Rhinehardt Petrasches Name).

In an old post on Feldman's Forum, Joe responded to your Waltz/Ludy Theory by saying that he had looked into that years ago, and that Ludy/Ludi and Jacobs were the names of the two soldiers of the "Two Soldiers" Story, and that they were both Union (not Confederate). I remember it was in response to a post by Roy. Maybe Joe remembers it better than I do without looking it up.

Mike

 

[Hal Croves]

hal ..you got all that nonsense out of a book...there is an entire thread on here about how full of crap books are...but if your back east ass wants to believe what you read go ahead..dont expect me to....you have never been here...all you know is what you scavenge off the internet....i got my info 30 years ago from the people that owned the mines...i'll believe them over you any day..by the way......are you still living in your car posting from a cell phone?

The information is taken from period newspapers and legal papers and I didn't post it hoping to change your mind.
Accuracy and reading are not really your thing.
We get it.

I don't own a car Dave and I post from an iMac but occasionally from my iPhone.
You shouldn't need to resort to strange personal attacks Dave.
Either ignore me or show me wrong.

It can't be that difficult.



Reads:
http://tucson.com/news/local/mineta...cle_903ac0f9-a7ec-53e8-9b31-07e8452ad65b.html

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Roy,

The whole Ludy/Ludi Thing didn't come from Barry Storm. There was a letter to the editor of The Arizona Star on 22 July 1931:


This mine was first discovered in 1863 by a Mexican, named Peralta, of Chihuahua City,Mexico. In Tucson, two years after its original discovery, Peralta was making his second trip to
the mine when he met a native of Holland, Paul Ludy by name, and struck up a friendship with
him which resulted in Ludy being invited to join the party and to share in the profits of the trip.
En route to the mine, the party was attacked by Indians and completely routed and Ludy was
lost. After several days of hardships, he succeeded in reaching Tucson.
Jacobs, the second Dutchman, was a Confederate soldier under Lieutenant Jack Schwilling and
was wounded in the Battle of El Pichacho, the only battle of the Civil war fought on Arizona soil.
Left for dead, he later succeeded in reaching Tucson, where during his convalescence he met
Ludy, who had just returned from the disastrous mining expedition
The entire article posted by Garry:

WALTZ/LUDY

Now, the guy that wrote that letter got several things wrong (including Rhinehardt Petrasches Name).

In an old post on Feldman's Forum, Joe responded to your Waltz/Ludy Theory by saying that he had looked into that years ago, and that Ludy/Ludi and Jacobs were the names of the two soldiers of the "Two Soldiers" Story, and that they were both Union (not Confederate). I remember it was in response to a post by Roy. Maybe Joe remembers it better than I do without looking it up.

Mike

That is interesting Mike, however I did not state that Barry Storm was the “originator” of the Ludy story. In fact I had not seen Garry’s article before now. I do my own research, you should know that by now, and had found that the Ludy/Peralta story was in circulation in AZ years before Waltz passed away.

On that “other channel” (LDM forum) if you check, it was me that brought it up about the 2 Soldiers story not being in the Superstitions and should not be linked with the LDM. Again this was from my own research, not through anyone else’s, whatever you may believe. What surprises me is that Barry Storm was able to find some of these and did not recognize that they should not be linked with Waltz. A fair case can be made that several different, unrelated lost mine stories have gotten mixed in with the LDM over the years, like the Dr Thorn story which began life as a lost placer.

It is high time that we should start getting it sorted out properly. I do not rely on the research of others and frequently check things that is found by others, like with this topic not the Olbers manifest only but also that naturalization certificate which named Wurtembourg as Waltz’s home origins, yet I found that on the census, he told the census taker that his homeland was Prussia. Small errors like that have led to the confused mess we have today, with so many thousands of people hunting for the LDM based on a strange mix of clues from a half dozen different, unrelated mines! No one will ever find it that way because the mix of information is deeply flawed.

Anyway yes I had found the roster where the two Ludy men enlisted in the US Army, believe it was in Missouri, very probably the same enlistment roster found by Joe, and the Ludys later went to Arizona where their adventures became confused with Jacob Waltz and his partner. This is not the only documentation on them that I have.

Part of the reason may be due to the common “Dutchman” tag but also they were working in the same general region. Heck those two “Germans” that came into Florence in 1878 announcing their find of a rich silver vein, had come into the very same town that Waltz went to in order to get supplies and a portable drywasher. I am pretty sure they are the Ludys because a drywasher would not have helped much in locating a silver vein, but for Waltz hunting gold, it would have been useful indeed. Please don’t ASSUME that when I state something, that I MUST have gotten it from some other Dutch hunter.

Hal - don’t you know, that anyone that lives in AZ must be an expert? Books => bad, which is why we have our own library of refs. Hmm for some reason I can't post a pic of it at the moment, will try again in a bit. EDIT got it.


That worked, although I have no idea why it flopped my pic sideways.


Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Dave,

I can see where the misunderstanding about that story came from. In researching the story, I found this:

In 1949 Alfred Strong Lewis and three partners set up Goldfields Mines Incorporated. Lewis had been a young mining engineer at Goldfields in 1912 - 1913. A ball mill and cyanide open pit mine was put into operation. During the earth removal at the pit area, a drag line dislodged a large rock slab close to the original Mormon Stope shaft. Under this slab was discovered an ancient mine shaft timbered with axe-hewn ironwood logs. The shaft was filled with rock rubble. Was this one of the old Spanish mines of legend ? The open pit was operated until 1950, then closed.

Even the time frame is close enough. It undoubtedly is a mixup of the two stories. Lewis DID find an old Spanish/Mexican Working in 1949, and it was near the old Mormon Stope. Looks like it lasted about a year, and was a pit mine. Here is a bit from "The Kollenborn Chronicles" regarding Lewis' Find:

Alfred Strong Lewis, a pioneer mining engineer, became very active trying to revive Goldfield in 1949. Lewis extracted about forty-five thousand dollars worth of gold bullion using a 100-ton ball mill and a cyanide operation. After Lewis’ attempt the Goldfield property was acquired by Hugh Nichols, Ted Sliger, Doc Waterbury and Russell. These four men formed the Apache Trail Mining Company and again attempted to put Goldfield in production.

..........and that is $45,000 when gold was at about $335 an ounce. Not bad for a years work.

When you ask Ron about it, please also ask if there are any pics of the rock that covered the old mine.


Mike

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Dave,

I believe what you are referring to is "The Mormon Stope" of the Mammoth Mine. Bob Garman talks about it in his book. The Mammoth was about played out, but in 1951, they broke into a very old shaft. One way was a dead end, the other way led to an ironwood door covered by a large capstone. There's even a bad black & white pick of the ironwood logs. They were said to have taken over $2,000,000 in two years before that played out.

Mike

I think that history is pretty well documented outside of legend stuff.

Young Mine (Mammoth Mine; Mammoth group), Goldfield, Goldfield Mts, Goldfield District, Pinal Co., Arizona, USA

 

[azdave35]

The information is taken from period newspapers and legal papers and I didn't post it hoping to change your mind.
Accuracy and reading are not really your thing.
We get it.

I don't own a car Dave and I post from an iMac but occasionally from my iPhone.
You shouldn't need to resort to strange personal attacks Dave.
Either ignore me or show me wrong.

It can't be that difficult.



Reads:
Mine Tales: Gold was mined out of Superstition Mountains

hal..if you dont want trouble then dont start it...

 

[gollum]

I think that history is pretty well documented outside of legend stuff.

Young Mine (Mammoth Mine; Mammoth group), Goldfield, Goldfield Mts, Goldfield District, Pinal Co., Arizona, USA

Actually, you may want to read my previous post on the subject.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I can see where the misunderstanding about that story came from. In researching the story, I found this:



Even the time frame is close enough. It undoubtedly is a mixup of the two stories. Lewis DID find an old Spanish/Mexican Working in 1949, and it was near the old Mormon Stope. Looks like it lasted about a year, and was a pit mine. Here is a bit from "The Kollenborn Chronicles" regarding Lewis' Find:



..........and that is $45,000 when gold was at about $335 an ounce. Not bad for a years work.

When you ask Ron about it, please also ask if there are any pics of the rock that covered the old mine.


Mike

mike...i'll talk to feldman sometime next week and see what he knows about the old ironwood shaft...i knew another guy back in the 80's that said him and a few partners took over $750,000 from the mammoth using an open pit operation...he said they were working a bunch of stringers veins that were very rich but not profitable to mine conventional so they pitted it....back then there was also a guy named don housley that took alot of gold out of the either the mammoth or the wasp mine

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Actually, you may want to read my previous post on the subject.

Mike

I read the post to which I responded, and while I was doing that you corrected yourself in another post explaining how you had waylaid yourself. I see that now. Thank you.

Not to destroy the legend ... but it seems pretty simple that if the massacre gold and supposed Watlz gold both came from the Goldfield area, that pretty much explains everything. Occam's razor would say case closed. Unless there is some evidence...

 

[azdave35]

Gollum wrote


That is interesting Mike, however I did not state that Barry Storm was the “originator” of the Ludy story. In fact I had not seen Garry’s article before now. I do my own research, you should know that by now, and had found that the Ludy/Peralta story was in circulation in AZ years before Waltz passed away.

On that “other channel” (LDM forum) if you check, it was me that brought it up about the 2 Soldiers story not being in the Superstitions and should not be linked with the LDM. Again this was from my own research, not through anyone else’s, whatever you may believe. What surprises me is that Barry Storm was able to find some of these and did not recognize that they should not be linked with Waltz. A fair case can be made that several different, unrelated lost mine stories have gotten mixed in with the LDM over the years, like the Dr Thorn story which began life as a lost placer.

It is high time that we should start getting it sorted out properly. I do not rely on the research of others and frequently check things that is found by others, like with this topic not the Olbers manifest only but also that naturalization certificate which named Wurtembourg as Waltz’s home origins, yet I found that on the census, he told the census taker that his homeland was Prussia. Small errors like that have led to the confused mess we have today, with so many thousands of people hunting for the LDM based on a strange mix of clues from a half dozen different, unrelated mines! No one will ever find it that way because the mix of information is deeply flawed.

Anyway yes I had found the roster where the two Ludy men enlisted in the US Army, believe it was in Missouri, very probably the same enlistment roster found by Joe, and the Ludys later went to Arizona where their adventures became confused with Jacob Waltz and his partner. This is not the only documentation on them that I have.

Part of the reason may be due to the common “Dutchman” tag but also they were working in the same general region. Heck those two “Germans” that came into Florence in 1878 announcing their find of a rich silver vein, had come into the very same town that Waltz went to in order to get supplies and a portable drywasher. I am pretty sure they are the Ludys because a drywasher would not have helped much in locating a silver vein, but for Waltz hunting gold, it would have been useful indeed. Please don’t ASSUME that when I state something, that I MUST have gotten it from some other Dutch hunter.

Hal - don’t you know, that anyone that lives in AZ must be an expert? Books => bad, which is why we have our own library of refs. Hmm for some reason I can't post a pic of it at the moment, will try again in a bit. EDIT got it.

View attachment 1249486
That worked, although I have no idea why it flopped my pic sideways.


Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

roy...lol...i dont need books...if i need info i just jump in my truck and drive out to the supers and get the info from the men that have lived at the base of the mountain all their lives...

 

[Oroblanco]

roy...lol...i dont need books...if i need info i just jump in my truck and drive out to the supers and get the info from the men that have lived at the base of the mountain all their lives...

Dave I am not sure what you have against books, but your post there really points out the need for them.

We can not talk to Jacob Waltz, Weiser, Julia Thomas, Reinhardt Petrasch, Dick Holmes, for examples, or even with the people that did talk to them - Sims Ely, Jim Bark, John Mitchell, Tex Barkley - the list goes on and on. Pretty much all dead and buried, the only way we can get any information from them is via books, magazines and newspapers. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but as close as you can get to talk to Jacob Waltz etc. Heck some of the most knowledgeable people we can talk to today, like Tom K, Bob C, Clay Worst are all getting up in years and it won't be that far in the future when we can't talk to them either.

We can't even talk to Walt Gassler, the closest we can do is to talk to his son Roland, and of course Walter's notes. Memories are not that perfect either - so even talking to someone may end up that person can not recall details, which if written down would be easy to get.

One other thing here but living in AZ doesn't impress me. Most people in AZ could care less about the LDM, and for that matter most of the people living in AZ are not from Arizona. Also, some of us spend a LOT of time in the hills when we are able to get there - we spent the winters several times and seven months once, living in a tent, searching. Don't assume that living there trumps everything.

 

[gollum]

I read the post to which I responded, and while I was doing that you corrected yourself in another post explaining how you had waylaid yourself. I see that now. Thank you.

Not to destroy the legend ... but it seems pretty simple that if the massacre gold and supposed Watlz gold both came from the Goldfield area, that pretty much explains everything. Occam's razor would say case closed. Unless there is some evidence...

Okay, so we're playing nice again? While I do love a good fight, they do nothing to further the conversation. HAHAHA I prefer everybody getting along.

Your post has done absolutely nothing to destroy the legend, trust me! HAHAHA THAT red herring is firmly entrenched in the minds of many.

But to answer your question directly,

1. What makes you think that the "Waltz Gold" came from the Goldfield Area? Joseph Porterie was very familiar with what the ores from most of the local mines looked like. When he assayed the ore Dick Holmes got from the candlebox, he stated it was unlike any ore he had ever seen. He had also been the Chief Assayer at the Vulture Mine. I don't think that anybody has ever ABSOLUTELY MATCHED Waltz' Candlebox Ore to ANY known mine. Granted, at the time (early 1892), the Mammoth was still an unknown mine, but that ore has most definitely been tested against the candlebox ore.

2. Massacre Ground Ore was not from the Massacre Grounds. What came from The Massacre Grounds was float ore likely from pack saddles cut from the mules, before the N-Deh took them to eat. That is why we have the story of Silverlocke & Malm. They found about $15,000 in float ore, but couldn't ever find the vein. They both went crazy and spent all their original money trying to find a vein that didn't exist.

Mike

 

[azdave35]

Dave I am not sure what you have against books, but your post there really points out the need for them.

We can not talk to Jacob Waltz, Weiser, Julia Thomas, Reinhardt Petrasch, Dick Holmes, for examples, or even with the people that did talk to them - Sims Ely, Jim Bark, John Mitchell, Tex Barkley - the list goes on and on. Pretty much all dead and buried, the only way we can get any information from them is via books, magazines and newspapers. Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but as close as you can get to talk to Jacob Waltz etc. Heck some of the most knowledgeable people we can talk to today, like Tom K, Bob C, Clay Worst are all getting up in years and it won't be that far in the future when we can't talk to them either.

We can't even talk to Walt Gassler, the closest we can do is to talk to his son Roland, and of course Walter's notes. Memories are not that perfect either - so even talking to someone may end up that person can not recall details, which if written down would be easy to get.

One other thing here but living in AZ doesn't impress me. Most people in AZ could care less about the LDM, and for that matter most of the people living in AZ are not from Arizona. Also, some of us spend a LOT of time in the hills when we are able to get there - we spent the winters several times and seven months once, living in a tent, searching. Don't assume that living there trumps everything.

roy..i do agree with you on one thing....most people in az could care less about the ldm....i gave up looking for it years ago...and you are also correct in saying that julia..holmes... petrash...barkley ..gassler..and many more like them are all gone...but it wouldn't do you any good to talk to them even if you could because they had no idea where the ldm is either..or they would have found it...and all the old authors on the ldm...mitchell..barney bernard...barry stom...bark ..ely...the list goes on and on...their theories are all full of holes and b.s. and has gotten not one single person any closer to the ldm...most of the writings and books have been scrutinized on the forums and have been found to be full of b.s....and as far as tom k...bob c. and clay w. goes...they know a hell of alot more than you know ..but coming to a rendezvous once a year and chatting with them isnt going to get you any closer to the ldm...whatever info they do have they surely aren't going to tell you or anyone else ...the only brain i would like to pick is Quentin Cox ..but he is also gone....feel free to continue your research on the ldm...the only reason i chimed in was because i know some of the history of the goldfield area...and i've never read a book about it...i've just been in the area for 35 years and knew many of the old timers that are long gone now...carrol ingle...john wilburn...ray ruiz...and many more that are still with us...i listen to what they have told me over the years...i know alot of you guys like to read old newspaper clippings and you believe everything you read in them...i don't believe anything the newspapers print today and i dont believe most of the crap they printed 100 years ago...and as far as coming down here and searching for 7 months...that might be enough time to poke around and take a few pics but not much else...lol..i know guys that have spent 50 years up there and still haven't found jack crap

 

[cactusjumper]

Dave,

"and as far as tom k...bob c. and clay w. goes...they know a hell of alot more than you know ..but coming to a rendezvous once a year and chatting with them isnt going to get you any closer to the ldm...whatever info they do have they surely aren't going to tell you or anyone else"

What you say may or may not be true, but coming to the Rendezvous every year probably won't get you farther away from the LDM either.

On the other hand, you still jump in your truck and drive up to the base of the mountains to talk to the old timers. How can you be sure that one of those old timers haven't found Waltz's mine/cache? Personally, I'm pretty sure one or more of them have.

All of that has nothing to do with the Gold bar legends, and am sure those gold bars did exist.

Getting off your butt and hiking the mountains is one of the best things you can do, but research doesn't hurt, which is how whatever was found in the Pit Mine got removed.

Many Dutch Hunters who don't read, often ask me questions about things that are printed in books. Did you get the Emails I sent you?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Hal Croves]

hal..if you dont want trouble then dont start it...

azdave35,
Like secondhand campfire tales, historical accuracy has its place.