wanted to bring everyones attention to this

[Monolyth]

Hello,

As probably many of you do when not detecting or involved in other activities I like to read or get involved in forum posts for entertainment, learn something new or check out others finds. I post on this forum and others as well. This was of particular interest to me posted on another forum, I think it should be of interest to you to as it deals with what could be the future of this hobby we share.

I will post the content made by original poster and a link to it if you would like to see the discussion that followed:
thread link; http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34857

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So, i have been posting adds of craigslist to get permission to detect peoples property. i have gotten several hits, but today i got an email that im not quite sure how to take. anyways. what are your thoughts. i almost feel like i have been scolded.

Here is the craigslist add

I am lookin for new spots to use my metal detector. I prefer yards or lots, and will remove all trash I uncover. I am mainly interested in older coins and tokens. Almost every yard or grass strip holds coins and relics that are just waiting to be found. I don't leave holes and will leave all sites in as found or better condition. So if you have a lot or yard older than the 1950's and don't mind, I would love the privilege to metal detect your place. This is purely my hobby. I will answer all emails. I prefer the Bellingham/Everson area but will travel if my schedule permits. Thanks for lookin!


Here is the email i got today

Greetings,

We recently noticed your advertisement on Craigslist. Though we have not heard from you directly, as the state agency tasked with protecting archaeological sites and resources for the inspiration and enrichment of the citizens of Washington, we felt it would be productive to contact you directly.


It is our understanding that you are interested in metal detecting lots or yards over 50 years old to find coins, tokens, or relics. Items over 50 years old, produced or modified by humans, below the surface of the ground and submerged under water, are archaeological objects. Archaeological objects, and archaeological sites and resources, are protected resources under state statutes.

In addition, per RCW 27.53.060, a permit is required for any person to knowingly and willfully remove, alter, dig into, excavate or remove an archaeological object or site in the state of Washington.

This statute applies to both public and private lands. Even with landowner permission, a permit from DAHP is required. The permit processes requires a research design, a plan for care and cleaning of the recovered objects, the commitment to write a professional, technical report, and appropriate curation of the artifacts and data recovered. The permit process also requires DAHP to afford interested parties an opportunity to comment on the proposed excavation project, prior to its commencement. These parties typically include affected Indian Tribes, local government, historical societies, landowners, and archaeological peers. Permit application forms are available on our website at http://www.dahp.wa.gov/pages/Archaeology/Permitting.htm.

Failure to obtain such a permit, or failure to comply with any permit conditions, can result in civil penalties in an amount up to $5000 per violation, restoration costs and investigative costs. Furthermore, if burials, cairns, or glyptic records are involved, RCW 27.44 allows the affected Indian Tribe to file claims for damages and emotional distress.

Excavation permits are granted to professional archaeologists who meet the requirements of that definition under RCW 27.53.030(8). While we understand metal detecting is your hobby, much damage has been done to the state’s archaeological resources by hobbyists.

There are legal ways to experience the excitement of discovery of our historic past. The Forest Service operates a program entitled “Passport in Time.” This program affords volunteers the opportunity to participate in real archaeological excavations with professional archaeologists. This includes historic period sites as well as prehistoric. The website link is: http://www.passportintime.com/.

There are some Washington State Parks that are open to metal detecting. Please see the following link for more information: http://www.parks.wa.gov/activities/

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions about the content of this letter. You can find additional information about archaeology in Washington, as well as the laws regarding archaeological excavations on our website at www.dahp.wa.gov.

Sincerely,



Stephenie Kramer
Assistant State Archaeologist
(360) 586-3083
Stephenie.kramer@dahp.wa.gov
__________________

 

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[steve from ohio]

You can't tell me we don't live in a police state.

Property rights are the basis for our freedoms. When the state tells us what we can or cannot do on our own property, then we are all slaves.

 

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[wwace]

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=27.53.045

this about says it all

 

[Tom_in_CA]

monolyth, I hope you didn't click on her craigslist reply. Because as long as you don't, your email and identity remain anonymous.

For starters, I disagree with their interpretation of WA law. I bet if you dug deep enough, that it only applies to registered sites (or as they say in England "scheduled" sites). I simply can not believe they can say what she is trying to claim. Oh SURE this will not stop an archie from trying to claim these purist interpretations, because in their very nature, they hate bottle diggers, md'rs, etc.... It would be like asking the president of PETA: "can I keep my pet bunny in my car for a minute while I run into the store?" They would say "ABSOLUTELY NOT" and go on to list a variety of animal cruelty charges you will be facing criminal charges for. I mean, what did you expect from a PETA nut? In the SAME way: what did you expect from an archie nut like this gal?

I have emailed your post text to a friend of mine, now living in CA, who was the past president of the Portland/Vancouver area md'ing club. I'm going to get his take on it. Personally, I know that he wouldn't give a second thought to any of that b*llcr*p. He would simply just go detecting, and his math would get immediately fuzzy. And of course, he's always looking for that "boyscout ring his dad lost here when his dad was a kid". I mean SERIOUSLY! Is anyone ever really standing over you with a calculator when you're retreiving a target?

I would venture to guess that in any of the 50 states, if you looked long enough and hard enough, there is bound to be some "collecting" or "cultural heritage" or "lost & found" or "defacement" etc.... rules that .... if you thought about it long enough and hard enough, with enough morphing, could apply to every one of us. You would eventually be restricted to your own back-yard, if you really wanted to worry long and hard.

 

[geo4472]

so does that mean if the land has been in someones family for lets just say 150 yrs and their great great grandfather burried a chest full of money or an old clay pot full of money you get fined and they take what is rightfuly yours sounds like a buch of bs and i thought communism was dying out

No. That is not what it means. Read the email again.

So are you saying that the 150+ year old chest, the 150+ year old clay pot, or the coins, were not produced by humans?

No. I said to read the email again. The email says nothing about getting fined or an item being confiscated in regards to the hypothetical scenario presented.

but it does mention a fine Failure to obtain such a permit, or failure to comply with any permit conditions, can result in civil penalties in an amount up to $5000 per violation, that is what i was getting at if you fail to get a permit to dig on your own land you'll get a fine or have it taken for arch. ?

 

[spartacus53]

That is one tough state you live in.. I'd look out the window before leaving on any hunts and check for any unknown SUV's in the area, they may be watching you.

 

[deepskyal]

Maybe I'm getting more stubborn in my old age or maybe I'm just plain ignr'nt...but had it been I receiving that email...I would have replied with a discribed scenario of my raised fist with the middle finger properly extended skyward and explain what exactly the feature implies.....then I'd go metal detect some nice old yards somewhere.

Al

 

[SteveDodds]

Maybe you need to sue the state because of all the trash that they own and have not cleaned up that I imagine is in your yard. Boy if the my state government owns everything under my grass they better get over here and clean that crap up before I have them arrested for littering.

 

[wwace]

monolyth, I hope you didn't click on her craigslist reply. Because as long as you don't, your email and identity remain anonymous.

For starters, I disagree with their interpretation of WA law. I bet if you dug deep enough, that it only applies to registered sites (or as they say in England "scheduled" sites). I simply can not believe they can say what she is trying to claim. Oh SURE this will not stop an archie from trying to claim these purist interpretations, because in their very nature, they hate bottle diggers, md'rs, etc.... It would be like asking the president of PETA: "can I keep my pet bunny in my car for a minute while I run into the store?" They would say "ABSOLUTELY NOT" and go on to list a variety of animal cruelty charges you will be facing criminal charges for. I mean, what did you expect from a PETA nut? In the SAME way: what did you expect from an archie nut like this gal?

I have emailed your post text to a friend of mine, now living in CA, who was the past president of the Portland/Vancouver area md'ing club. I'm going to get his take on it. Personally, I know that he wouldn't give a second thought to any of that b*llcr*p. He would simply just go detecting, and his math would get immediately fuzzy. And of course, he's always looking for that "boyscout ring his dad lost here when his dad was a kid". I mean SERIOUSLY! Is anyone ever really standing over you with a calculator when you're retreiving a target?

I would venture to guess that in any of the 50 states, if you looked long enough and hard enough, there is bound to be some "collecting" or "cultural heritage" or "lost & found" or "defacement" etc.... rules that .... if you thought about it long enough and hard enough, with enough morphing, could apply to every one of us. You would eventually be restricted to your own back-yard, if you really wanted to worry long and hard.

this is their law: RCW 27.53.045
Abandoned archaeological resources — Declaration.

All historic archaeological resources abandoned for thirty years or more in, on, or under the surface of any public lands or waters owned by or under the possession, custody, or control of the state of Washington, including, but not limited to all ships, or aircraft, and any part or the contents thereof, and all treasure trove is hereby declared to be the property of the state of Washington.


[1988 c 124 § 3.]

sounds to me like they are claiming everything, and if you read the associated statutes it says that any profits from items recovered shall go into the general fund and be earmarked for archies

 

[SteveDodds]

That doesn't say anything about private land like the crazy lady said.

 

[ivan salis]

please note the key word ===ALL * TREASURE TROVE --- so any and all money and or gold / silver stashes found in the ground belongs to the state of washington * * -- plus all "abandoned" shipwrecks, plane wrecks over 30 years old = bottom line --NO TREASURE HUNTING HERE IN WASHINGTON STATE.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

WWACE, thanx for posting that. Couple of things:

1) I do not consider coins, buttons, bullets, etc.... to be "historic archaeological resources". Even the ARPA has them excluded. They have to be in an "archaeological" site (like, a "declared -as- such" site) to be an "archaeological item", TO BEGIN WITH. So coins outside of such sites, are not "arechaeological resources", in my opinion. Read the laws with that context in mind, and I believe you can see that it legally stands to reason.

2) Notice it says that all this pertains to lands under the: "control of the state of Washington". Well Doh: county, city, and private lands are not "under the control of the state of Washington"! Therefore this can be said to only apply to state parks, or other such state-run land. And that being the case, this is no more threatening than a host of USA states, where hunters for decades have already known to lay low at state parks, but that all others were fair game.

 

[ivan salis]

yes but washington state conciders that all cities and counties within the state to be "under" state control and that they "answer" to the state ----since they are offically "in" the state -they are under the states jursdiction* -- much the way if you commit a murder --the state takes over the case * for trail --not the local town or county , ---so their "state law" trumps local city and county laws.

the federal govt used this for "civil rights" to strike down "jim crow" type state laws in the south --by saying --you states "are" in the USA -- and answer to the federal govt --we're the "big" boss --get it ---our federal laws "trump" your state laws.

now the state of washington is applying the same sort of tactic --I'm the state , so you "underlings" answer to me .--what I say goes.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ivan, I disagree with this view. I mean, I see your examples, but something simply must be different here. Because there are oodles of different rules for city parks, verses county parks, verses state parks, verses federal parks, all the time.

I mean, one might allow camp-fires, and the next doesn't. One might allow dogs on leash, and the next says no dogs period. One might allow off-roading, while the next one doesn't. One might allow camping while the next one "closes at dusk", etc... and so forth. So what you're saying simply doesn't follow.

 

[ivan salis]

yes they have "local" laws in addition the state has its own laws * --its layered city laws, yeild to county laws which yeild to state laws - which have to give to federal laws ---its a "food chain" in effect a local law can be in place "provided" it does not clash with a state law * --if it does it will cause a "court case" most likely sooner or later and be struck down -- the state of washington by their state law claiming "ALL *TREASURE TROVE" -- IS SAYING --BURIED MONEY , GOLD AND SILVER BELONGS TO THE STATE * and all "abandoned" shipwrecks and plane wrecks over 30 years of age as well.

the state of washington is blunt , very clear and to the point -- anything worthwhile found in the state of washington that they find out about --is theirs- peroid . --- try them on for size and see what happens . --- bad law , bad .bad bad --- nasty bunch of money grubbing blood suckers.

generally speaking only federal lands within a states borders are exempt from state control , city and county must yeild to state law (food chain)--most federal parks that I know of do not allow metal detecting -- except for "prospecting" for gold maybe

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Ivan, think about it. If what you're saying is true, there is a whole host of inherent problems:

Basically ...... in this "layered" concept of city, to county, to state, to fed. rules, you're saying that they all co-exist simlultaneously. And if there is "conflict", then the "stricter rule prevails". Right? So for example: a city can not make a law allowing murder, or whatever, because that would conflict with higher laws, and therefore the "stricter" (ie.: no murder) law would prevail.

If what you're saying is true, and it applies to something like metal detecting, then you've got a WHOLE host of md'rs........ NATIONWIDE, who are violating laws in every single state. Because think of it: take ANY state where there is not detecting allowed in state level parks. The general rule of thumb, up till now, is that this only applies to state level parks. So hunters in those states could just avoid state-level parks, and hunt till their blue in the face at city and county parks. They would either hunt those local level parks because there was nothing written on the subject (ie.: nothing prohibiting) metal detecting, or perhaps they even waltzed into city or county hall and "got permission".

But if what you're saying is true, then their "permission" (or their simply going because there was no rule saying they couldn't) is superceded by the state level rule saying specifically "No metal detecting". In other words, the city is not even allowed, from the start, to have even issued permission to metal detect, in the first place, since the state doesn't allow it in their parks, and since the state law supercedes city and county law.

This simply can not be the case. If what you're saying is true, then really, none of us should even be looking at city level laws (schools, parks, etc...) and should instead be looking for any possibly more "serious" laws at higher levels.

Is there any legal beavers out there that can un-ravel this? I can understand the "layered" law concept (like as in the case of murder, drug use, etc....) but is this same principle applied to even detecting?

 

[syko]

Get the adress of where to send these valuable finds and post it here. Then everyone here and at other forums should send all their pulltabs and junk, in a priority mail flat rate box.

 

[2bits]

To think we as taxpayers fund these idiots! I agree with deepskyal, on the proper gesture. This country is going down the tubes faster and faster everyday!
Doc

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Excuse me, why doesn't everyone who is detecting in Washington State just start taking all the trash you collect to the state agency and drop it off saying "here are the artifacts I found, here you go it's all yours"..... I mean all the trush too, every single nail, pulltap, bottle cap, aluminum foil, piece of iron,every single thing you normally throw away. Since they claim they own everything in the ground, SEND THEM EVERY THING YOU FOUND IN THE GROUND !!!!

 

[mts]

This is a heavy handed technique to try and gain control of all digging in the state. The way to solve this type of problem is to report it to the media and start making a big stink about it. Get people worried about being fined for picking up a wheat penny and this law won't last long. When someone abuses power like this they have to be smacked down.

Send it to the local paper on a slow newsday and make sure this woman's name is in the email. Be sure to take liberties in the translation of her message. After all, she took liberties in her interpretation of the law. Let her fellow archies see what she is doing to hurt their cause. They will skin her alive for creating a force intent on overturning their blessed law. There is no punishment worse for these types of people than being ostracized by your peers.

It's like dealing with children. If they abuse the privileges you give them then the next step is to take them all away. Show them what their poor behavior has cost them. Then they will learn not to do it again!

I'm just glad that I live in a sensible state. I am all for preserving true archaeological sites and finds. But most of the junk in the ground isn't worthy of being studied in that context.

 

[ivan salis]

if in doubt --E mail the washington state archies office for "guidance "--say you plan to vaction there in the near future -- amd ask her to "explain" just what items you can find and keep -- be sure to ask about coins over 50 years old and be preparecd to go --OMFG --those washington state archie folks are frickin nuts .--since they see those 50 year old coins as "possible future artifacts" for archies of the future (say 500 years from now) to dig up.