wanted to bring everyones attention to this

[Monolyth]

Hello,

As probably many of you do when not detecting or involved in other activities I like to read or get involved in forum posts for entertainment, learn something new or check out others finds. I post on this forum and others as well. This was of particular interest to me posted on another forum, I think it should be of interest to you to as it deals with what could be the future of this hobby we share.

I will post the content made by original poster and a link to it if you would like to see the discussion that followed:
thread link; http://metaldetectingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34857

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So, i have been posting adds of craigslist to get permission to detect peoples property. i have gotten several hits, but today i got an email that im not quite sure how to take. anyways. what are your thoughts. i almost feel like i have been scolded.

Here is the craigslist add

I am lookin for new spots to use my metal detector. I prefer yards or lots, and will remove all trash I uncover. I am mainly interested in older coins and tokens. Almost every yard or grass strip holds coins and relics that are just waiting to be found. I don't leave holes and will leave all sites in as found or better condition. So if you have a lot or yard older than the 1950's and don't mind, I would love the privilege to metal detect your place. This is purely my hobby. I will answer all emails. I prefer the Bellingham/Everson area but will travel if my schedule permits. Thanks for lookin!


Here is the email i got today

Greetings,

We recently noticed your advertisement on Craigslist. Though we have not heard from you directly, as the state agency tasked with protecting archaeological sites and resources for the inspiration and enrichment of the citizens of Washington, we felt it would be productive to contact you directly.


It is our understanding that you are interested in metal detecting lots or yards over 50 years old to find coins, tokens, or relics. Items over 50 years old, produced or modified by humans, below the surface of the ground and submerged under water, are archaeological objects. Archaeological objects, and archaeological sites and resources, are protected resources under state statutes.

In addition, per RCW 27.53.060, a permit is required for any person to knowingly and willfully remove, alter, dig into, excavate or remove an archaeological object or site in the state of Washington.

This statute applies to both public and private lands. Even with landowner permission, a permit from DAHP is required. The permit processes requires a research design, a plan for care and cleaning of the recovered objects, the commitment to write a professional, technical report, and appropriate curation of the artifacts and data recovered. The permit process also requires DAHP to afford interested parties an opportunity to comment on the proposed excavation project, prior to its commencement. These parties typically include affected Indian Tribes, local government, historical societies, landowners, and archaeological peers. Permit application forms are available on our website at http://www.dahp.wa.gov/pages/Archaeology/Permitting.htm.

Failure to obtain such a permit, or failure to comply with any permit conditions, can result in civil penalties in an amount up to $5000 per violation, restoration costs and investigative costs. Furthermore, if burials, cairns, or glyptic records are involved, RCW 27.44 allows the affected Indian Tribe to file claims for damages and emotional distress.

Excavation permits are granted to professional archaeologists who meet the requirements of that definition under RCW 27.53.030(8). While we understand metal detecting is your hobby, much damage has been done to the state’s archaeological resources by hobbyists.

There are legal ways to experience the excitement of discovery of our historic past. The Forest Service operates a program entitled “Passport in Time.” This program affords volunteers the opportunity to participate in real archaeological excavations with professional archaeologists. This includes historic period sites as well as prehistoric. The website link is: http://www.passportintime.com/.

There are some Washington State Parks that are open to metal detecting. Please see the following link for more information: http://www.parks.wa.gov/activities/

Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions about the content of this letter. You can find additional information about archaeology in Washington, as well as the laws regarding archaeological excavations on our website at www.dahp.wa.gov.

Sincerely,



Stephenie Kramer
Assistant State Archaeologist
(360) 586-3083
Stephenie.kramer@dahp.wa.gov
__________________

 

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[syko]

well she provided the link...here they are..
she is halfway down
http://www.dahp.wa.gov/pages/AboutUs/Staff.htm

send your junk archaeological finds here

Department of Archaeology & Historic Preservation
Suite 106
1063 South Capitol Way
Olympia WA 98501
360-586-3065

c/o
Assistant State Archaeologist

Stephenie Kramer
email: Stephenie.Kramer@dahp.wa.gov
(360) 586-3083

Archaeology, Native American Burial Excavation Permits and Washington State Archaeological Excavation Permits, Data Sharing Agreements for GIS, and Rules Coordinator.

 

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[Sim_Player]

Anyone called the local Seattle TV stations yet?

Sounds like a great scoop for a slow news day!

I'd be happy to swing my Fisher in front of the cameras digging foil, pulltabs, and rusty nails.

Sounds like a shot's been fired against us.

This should be a "call-to-arms" for all detectorists in Washington State!

Detecting clubs should organize against this idea and bring it to the public's attention.

I might invite Stephanie (I think her name is) to our forum via E-mail.

I would love to hear this "first-hand."

This drives me nuts!

So your Grandmother's lost wedding band becomes the property of the state after 50 years.

Even in her own front yard!

I'd love to get her response to that question, or anyone elses.

Are we all just a bunch of "grave-robbers"? No.

We do not "pilfer" indian remains looking for lost treasure.

Archeologists can hop on the "super-net" in 50 years to study the way we are living now.

What about all of those old homesteads that get bulldozed everyday to make way for "progress"?



Jim on Camano

 

[Frankn]

Well, the states are out to get whatever they can, and we have to support our state archaeologist!! But the federal archaeological protection exempts money from the statute.
What about all the people burried in the ground for over 50 years If they have been embombed they have been altered by man!!! Suppose You are digging a deep hole and you are over 50 and have had an operation, you meet the requirements. And I thought the socialism was just starting with health care!

​

 

[Frankn]

Desided to add a bright side to this subject. I am from Maryland and I went on a trip to N.M. I stopped in at Poncho Villa State Park. Asked if I could use my detector there. The park manager said yes and I could keep anything I found! I found a lot of brass buttons. The park manager said they were from the rear flap of the old longjohns the army troups use to wear. Went to Rockhound State park. Ranger told me where the different type of rocks were located. Said i could take I think it was 8#. She said to bring them to the office and she would tell me the best way to clean & polish them. New Mexico is trying to get controll of federal parks in their state. they claim the land was just taken by the feds. I wonder if any other states are as nice as N.M.?

​

 

[SC_Fisher]

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=27.53.045

this about says it all

Reading that law statement, it only says "public lands"...nothing stated about private lands. I believe the Archie was stretching the truth and not accurate in the post.

My advice...do your research privately...then approach the landowners privately. Do not post on Craigslist...as you witness, it only draws unneeded attention, and I'm thinking you haven't received many replies from people inviting you over to detect their properties anyway.

Regards,


SC_Fisher

 

[Buck Rabbit]

I'd ask her boss why she is surfing the internet on the tax payer's dime.
BR

 

[steve from ohio]

There is only one answer to this.......

TAR and FEATHERS.

We are slaves.

 

[newbieprospector]

Just adjust the ad a bit:

I am lookin for new spots to use my metal detector. I prefer yards or lots, and will remove all trash I uncover. Almost every yard or grass strip holds some type of metal just waiting to be found. I don't leave holes and will leave all sites in as found or better condition. So if you have a lot or yard and don't mind, I would love the privilege to metal detect your place. This is purely my hobby. I will answer all emails. I prefer the Bellingham/Everson area but will travel if my schedule permits. Thanks for lookin!!

Then when you get responses you can ask about the ages, etc. This way if you receive another "offical" e-mail you can tell them that "if found" you will not disturb any "artifacts" without notifying the proper authorities/departments first!

 

[JohnnieWalker]

I only look for pulltabs and bottlecaps. If I find something old or valuable I re-bury it.

 

[Produce Guy]

I use a business card and put them up on the bulitenboards at HomeDepot and Lowes and other places and the card says will find lost rings,pipes ,etc. free of charge on your land .
I've had a few people call and are always glad when I find it and it's free.I don't like to advertise on Craigslist,there's to many people who like to meet you and than rob you from this site(we've have this problem here in Austin,Tx.).Also word of mouth gets allot of offers.

 

[mikeinOC1]

If her number is real someone start putting her name and number on public restroom walls with " for a good time call Stephanie" or some other such place her number might be used by the "taxpayerS". Sorry guys I could not resist. I hope you don't mind forum moderator. If this woman (bit..) is for real it is just mind numbing how some goverment employees think they are the great protectors of the common good out to take every private citizens rights and privileges away. You folks in Washington need to start contacting your legislators to start bringing some sanity to your state laws if the bulks of the what is being put out here about Washington state law is true.

 

[Sim_Player]

The real damage done to archeological sites is done by people with backhoes and bulldozers, NOT with hand-held digging tools.

They can kiss my white WA behind.

Unfortunately, this may be the future of our hobby.

Smoking has been been banned in many of the parks I dig, as well as "weapons".

I use a dull 10" bayonet to cut the plug. Maybe they would prefer I use a large spade shovel instead. I do have one in my trunk.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Jim on Camano

 

[rickomatic]

Smoking has been been banned in many of the parks I dig, as well as "weapons".

Allow me to throw in my $.02 on this as my very first post.
If it is a city or county park, the "no weapons" signage is illegal as it is preempted by state law. On another forum I frequent, "opencarry.org" it is a side hobby of some to get those "illegal" signs removed by the jurisdiction involved. It also works as an educational tool. Perhaps there is a way with this topic that an educational approach might help too.

I am new to this forum and have only detected a few times with an el cheapo detector, but am thinking of getting into the hobby seriously.
Great forum with lots of information, and seemingly great folks!

 

[DirtDiggerDaveinMD]

It sounds to me that someone is trying to justify spending tens of thousands of her parents dollars on a liberal arts degree to become a file clerk. I will also bet that she sports an Obama sticker on her Volvo.

 

[XT18000]

Perhaps they need to be sent a bill for STORAGE of what you found in your yard without
your permission! Authority always has to include responsibility !!!!!!!!!

 

[Lithophylic]

It is just another glimpse into our "new society". For those of you who think you own the land.....just lapse on your property taxes and see where that takes you. Right now Arizona is our battle ground for personal rights in this country. I agree with many of you that that is the stereotypical archie attitude. They tried this in Alabama by slipping it into the back of some prior legislation but thankfully we were able to get it reversed. Now I agree that there are some sites that warrant protection for study, but for every one there are thousands that have no significance historically due to disturbance or a general lack of historic significance. Now it is likely that you can hunt there your whole life and never run into any problems; however, I know from experience, that they do like to set examples and if caught, they can make your life completely miserable as they have "the law on their side". Your problem is that you are located way too close to California - negative aura and all.

Libs are like roaches...Once they get in it is hard to get rid of em....

Good Hunting to you!

Litho...

 

[strickman]

If you want to really get her, get the number and put a posting on craigslist HAVE GERBIL WILL TRAVEL!

 

[Gunny71]

Almost as draconian as Komifornias gun laws.








Welcome to the USSA

 

[EE THr]

Monolyth;

If you look at your property deed or title, it probably says something to the effect of transferring "estate in fee simple" to you, or that you hold "estate in fee simple." Estate, in legal terms, means real estate, or "real property," which is basically land and whatever is on (buildings, trees, roads, etc.) or in (water, minerals, etc.) it.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple "Fee simple ownership represents absolute ownership of real property but it is limited by the four basic government powers of taxation, eminent domain, police power, and escheat and could also be limited by certain encumbrances or a condition in the deed."

The only one of the above listed limitations which would apply in this case is "police power," which is a legal term.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_power "The most common use of police power over real property is for the adoption and enforcement of zoning regulations, building codes, and environmental protection regulations, by local, regional, and national governments.

Other uses of the police power include public health regulations, vice laws, traffic laws, and family law. However, it is impossible to give a complete list of the uses of police power because a state can write any command or prohibition as a law and make people obey it, as long as such laws do not contradict constitutions or other laws with precedent.

The U.S. Supreme Court has often held that police powers are limited, even before reaching specific Constitutional provisions. One of many such statements:

Police powers, broadly stated and without, at present, any attempt at a more specific limitation, relate to the safety, health, morals and general welfare of the public.

Cases such as Lawrence v. Texas suggest that intimate morals are no longer a legitimate subject of the police power except to the extent that health or safety are involved."


So, to be a valid law, rule, or policy, under the "police power" provision, it would need to be valid under the "general welfare" aspect. Which is a really vague (courts don't like vagueness, so it makes a very weak case) term, and is also subordinate to your State Constitution.


Washington State Constitution

http://www.leg.wa.gov/LawsAndAgencyRules/Pages/constitution.aspx

"SECTION 1 POLITICAL POWER. All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights."

The above indicates that where any ambiguity exists, individual rights prevail.


On the other hand, if the archies are trying to claim that artifacts on your property are part of the land itself, then they are attempting to apply eminent domain law (but I doubt that, because it refers to use of the actual land), which is also covered in your State Constitution.

"SECTION 16 EMINENT DOMAIN. Private property shall not be taken for private use, except for private ways of necessity, and for drains, flumes, or ditches on or across the lands of others for agricultural, domestic, or sanitary purposes. No private property shall be taken or damaged for public or private use without just compensation having been first made, or paid into court for the owner, and no right-of-way shall be appropriated to the use of any corporation other than municipal until full compensation therefor be first made in money, or ascertained and paid into court for the owner, irrespective of any benefit from any improvement proposed by such corporation, which compensation shall be ascertained by a jury, unless a jury be waived, as in other civil cases in courts of record, in the manner prescribed by law. Whenever an attempt is made to take private property for a use alleged to be public, the question whether the contemplated use be really public shall be a judicial question, and determined as such, without regard to any legislative assertion that the use is public: Provided, That the taking of private property by the state for land reclamation and settlement purposes is hereby declared to be for public use. [AMENDMENT 9, 1919 p 385 Section 1. Approved November, 1920.]"

----------------------

So, I don't see any way they can legally be successfull in any attempt to apply their "artifact" claim to a few old coins on private property, especially since the Feds don't. But don't take my advice---ask a lawyer.

Personally, I think the archies are just trying to prevent anyone from finding any ancient stuff that would contradict their chosen "story" of history.

 

[Tnmountains]

I think it would be a good idea for her to see T-net and realise they are way behind. I have seen many Archeological sites covered up or bull dozed into the river because it contains no new information.They would rather destroy it than have someone proudly display there little collection at home. I abide by the ARPA rules for the most part but do not hesitate excavationg private property with permission. I actually have leases where I gain the archeological rights.
Everyone needs to send her e-mails and links and flood her office. Make her feel important. She is
working and employed by us right?

Stephenie Kramer
Assistant State Archaeologist
(360) 586-3083
Stephenie.kramer@dahp.wa.gov