We need your help in the Keys to fight NOAA, it's more than treasure.

RTR

Gold Member
Nov 21, 2017
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Smith Mt. Lake Va.
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I will ask how does a centuries old shipwreck beling to all of us? History may be shared by all, but how do you divide up the physical artifacts?
Why woould anyone put forth the enormous effort to locate and salvage a wreck if it is to be seized and artifacts squirreled away out of sight.
Lije your thougtful posts.

Mel Fisher showed the way.:) !
 

Magoopeter

Sr. Member
Jan 21, 2016
251
580
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underwater
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Shipwrecks
I will ask how does a centuries old shipwreck belong to all of us? History may be shared by all, but how do you divide up the physical artifacts?
Why woould anyone put forth the enormous effort to locate and salvage a wreck if it is to be seized and artifacts squirreled away out of sight.
Like your thougtful posts.

In reality a century old shipwreck does not belong to all of us, it still belongs to the original owner or an insure who paid out on any claim of loss. If a century’s old ship of war then it is more likely to belong to a State / country, king or Queen at the time of sinking.
A ship and the cargo can also belong to separate parties. A state cannot take ownership of a shipwreck or cargo they don’t own, they have a right to record the history, they can also protect the wreck site and restrict access but they cannot prevent a rightful owner from recovering there property should that be the shipwreck, cargo, or personal belongings of individuals.
It is very complicated, as there are all sorts of state laws even environmental laws are being used to obstruct salvage, so it not as strait forward.
A lot of local government and government departments have bought laws and regulations around the ownership and protection of ships wrecks that if you had the resources you could challenge them through the courts.
There are also laws that have been introduced in a way that means they won’t stand up in court, some countries law would be totally invalid if challenged in the way it has been introduced.
Once you find a wreck you need to first explore the law to see where you stand before you proceed.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/sup...wner-divinglicence-to-explore-wreck-1.1294420

View attachment Application of Salvage Law and the Law of Finds to Shipwreck Discoveries.pdf
 

Blak bart

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Jun 6, 2016
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Hmmmm....I had a forced time out from t-net or would have posted earlier. Where to start with something so personal to me ?? First of all....paul you guys know I'm in for the duration and will do everything possible to help out. Give the order cap and I'm on it. It's been my honor to be part of the team and be involved in a real quest with all the proper permitting and paperwork required to do this type of work properly. I can attest to everything that's been said here and even some other examples of a complete systemic bias and discrimination against private underwater salvage ops. And of coarse it's much deeper than that !! Try being one of the largest commercial shark fishing operations in the U.S. for 20+ years I was a shark finner on a federally permitted shark long liner...15 miles of line and 1000 hooks at a time. Folks these are the most heavily regulated and most monitored and patrolled waters in the world......let's see marine patrol, coast guard, CBP, DEA, sanctuary patrol, monroe county sheriff, navy and some others I've forgot too I'm sure. We have federal observers that are required to ride with us on the shark boat....we also have a VMS vessel monitoring system. This allows the federal Gov't to track us by GPS from space. It's gotten pretty extreme !! These overlapping laws have intruded so far into the everyday life of a Waterman such as myself that its reaching a point of being unbearable. There is a group of us conchs that are hit harder than the rest and its guys like me that take the hit hardest. Some of us still live a very a typical life style.....we go where the opportunity takes us and could be doing any number of ocean and water related jobs. I take great pride in the fact that I'm not just a fisherman or diver....not just a captain or mate...not just a treasure hunter or archeologist.....not just a surfer or paddle boarder....not just a kayaker or sailor or windsurfer or offshore power boat racer or eco tour guide or booze cruiser or spear fisherman or hog dogger or any other ocean related activity that I may be making my living from on a day to day basis.....I'm the guy that shows everyone that's not from here the secrets of the keys !! Now your gonna tell me that I'm gonna be fined if I come out of my canal without the latest NOAA permits and permissions!! Where in the last 30 years has any of the cultural heritage been placed in a federally designated museum here in the keys? Why is it that out of state entities and universities can come to waters restricted to me and dig up my local cultural heritage and carry it out of state ?? NOAA I would like to take my kid to see some of the wonderful works that you have persevered for the future generations of conchs.....???? Where again is all of our keys heritage ?? Oh I see.....maybe you could fly me and my son first class to wich ever location that you have some of the artifacts that were taken from sites my grandfather free dove on in the 50s. These restrictions and intrusive laws have to be checked please sign the petition in Paul's original post. I'll have plenty more to say but can only take so much typing at a time. I have plenty more to say but have to work also so that's it for now.

Sign the petition please.
 

Blak bart

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Jun 6, 2016
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Thanks billieg, thank you mike....magopter your words in both posts speak volumes of truth. Think of a small boy growing up in the keys in the 70s ? What is my cultural heritage ? Who do you think were local heroes for an ocean boy like myself ? What was at the forefront of keys news ? What treasure history was being made here ? ALL OF IT !! Why would I not aspire to be like great local men who pioneered all the treasure hunting and underwater archeology. Why would I not aspire to fish like the greats before me ? I'm talking about great men held in high regard in my own community !! The likes of ernest Hemingway, and Zane grey. Men with names like mckee and meylach, like haskins and fisher, the frog foots and shaggy cannons, the fiskars and Williamson's of the world and many many others who lived the dream before me. To say that I shouldn't do what my fore fathers did before me is is to rob me of my cultural heritage also.....rules, regulations, and sound oversight are not being argued here....I invite sound practice. Deceitful and bias denial of my cultural rights are a crime in my eyes. Where is the wrecking heritage of the keys represented ?? How many of noaas policy makers have held a job on the water here in the keys ? IT SHOULD BE A REQUIREMENT !! National oceanographic and atmospheric administration ??? Hmmmm...what exactly should there primary concerns be.....because we got a ton of other law enforcement regulating everything too.....what are we paying them to do...!! Just a little more to add....you can bet there will be more..... just another little rant. Please sign the petition
 

ARC

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Aug 19, 2014
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With archaeologists no artifacts are sold. As for the sick children... well, a Raytheon's Tomahawk missile costs $1.4 million. Each.

Wellllllll that's not necessarily true... And... if we really look at the big picture Alex.

Whenever "gold / silver" or "treasure" is mentioned concerning a shipwreck... Everything else is moot to all ears and "interests" are peaked.... everyone is listening.

The mention of these words by both the treasure hunters AND the Archies has been... and is... the easy "sales pitch" in "selling" the "need for funding" for BOTH.

The selling of "the dream" VIA these words backed by some sort of "proof" is an easy sell use BY BOTH entities to acquire "backing".

When selling "thirst for knowledge" an Archie has a hill to climb to acquire funding of the endeavor as would even the Thr's... and everyone is dragging their feet on cutting a check.

Mention "value"... and its not long till someone is cutting checks.

Selling the dream is STILL selling the history.

So even though you may not sell the actual "coin"...

The coin is still sold in the end when you look deeper than the simple "surface" of this debate...

Selling the coin without selling the coin is nothing new in business.

Selling "Look but don't touch" is also the business of some other huge businesses.

.........

Like strip clubs. :P
 

Blak bart

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Jun 6, 2016
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This website has a list of all the bluestar operators.https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/bluestar/operators.html
This is a pdf file that lists all the guidelines that the bluestar operators have to follow and if they break the rules they are taken off the blue star website.https://nmsfloridakeys.blob.core.wi.../docs/2020-blue-star-diving-framework.pdf.All these blue star operators need to be boycotted plus watchdogs need to document them doing anything wrong that doesn't follow the guidelines in that pdf file.Contact marina owners and property owners to get them all evicted.Dont sell them anything,no fuel,etc,or provide them with services,boat engine work,etc.Make them not want to be in the keys.Then when NOAA's bluestar program fails then maybe things will change.follow the money.I bet NOAA or NOAA workers are getting kickbacks from bluestar operators.those links and pdf was found at https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/bluestar/become.html

Fisheye....man I thought that might be a great way to fight back then I read the list.....I've either worked for or worked on alot of these folks boats....there my neighbors and friends !! So we will have to take a more tactful approach to the bluestar operators list. Most of these guys signed on for extra business opportunities. I dont think they could have read through the agreement very well.....it sounds like a reeducation and propaganda program !! The good news is I know some of them and they are all unhappy too, so it shouldn't be hard to convince some to drop out if they haven't already. Funny how the petition cant be found with a google search....you just get NOAA website options. Must be the shadow banning thing ??
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
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Lisbon
The coin is still sold in the end when you look deeper than the simple "surface" of this debate...

Selling the coin without selling the coin is nothing new in business.

Selling "Look but don't touch" is also the business of some other huge businesses.

.........

Like strip clubs. :P

Like strip clubs, no treasure hunting venture - maybe with the exception of the "Edinburgh", the "City of Cairo" and the "Egypt" - has ever paid off their investors.. ;)
 

Blak bart

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Jun 6, 2016
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https://www.saynotonoaa.org/ at least it shows up on google finally !! Most sentiments are shown here. Basically they are trustees of our park FKNMS !! Its real simple.....we will manage it ourselves or find another trustee. Read the basic complaints listed and please sign the petition.
 

Blak bart

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Jun 6, 2016
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Screenshot_20191118-072234_Gallery.jpg heres the part that concerns us here as treasure hunters.
 

Denniss

Full Member
Jan 7, 2011
203
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Fort Pierce, FL
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Petitions, emails and stakeholder input are all easily ignored. The only way to get action is lawsuits, they can't ignore a lawsuit. Unfortunately lawsuits are expensive and the government has unlimited legal resources.
 
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Treasure_Hunter

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Member needs to remember our rules, if a member has issue with moderation pm a mod, you do not challenge moderation in open forums as per TreasureNet rules.

"Users may disagree with the decisions or actions of the moderators and/or administrators, however, disagreements, criticism and the like are not to be aired within the forums. Please feel free to PM the person directly rather than air your dirty laundry in public."
 

sphillips

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Jan 4, 2008
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Petitions, emails and stakeholder input are all easily ignored. The only way to get action is lawsuits, they can't ignore a lawsuit. Unfortunately lawsuits are expensive and the government has unlimited legal resources.

yep, unlimited resources are our tax dollars!
 

ivan salis

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Feb 5, 2007
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fighting someone who can take your money out of your pockets ( by taxing you) to hire lawyers to fight you with makes it kind of hard to win...
 

Seakur

Greenie
Oct 2, 2020
12
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Florida
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I hear your pain. It has been my experience over the years to recognize the problem is with the State of Florida. Some examples: During WWII the whole east coast was aerial photographed. Even WITH the FOIA a person cannot obtain 1 photo from the State of Florida, unless you prove your request has nothing to due with treasure/salvage. Florida pretends to hide behind a blind of history and archaeology but in reality they couldn't care less.
Other examples: 1) Years ago during a drought we approached Florida to recover and preserve from the mud, canoes and other items of historic value left by the indigenous residents. We were told [literally] they [the State] would rather see them rot. [I believe the letter is still in possession]
Ex2) Request was made to the State by a State employee, to obtain a underwater camera to video the remains of a well known sunken ship specifically for historical purposes, and was denied. This ex-State worker/historian obtained his own equipment and filmed it with his own money. A few years later the State demanded the tape to use in its University. He refused.. at first.
Ex3) In the early 2000's the State was compiling a documentary of a re-enactment of Johnathan Dickinson's journey. I had been trying to obtain a 'real' lease of extraction in an area I believe has the remains of one of the 1715 ships. Mr Brisbane had just come onto the scene and proposed to the State that he would fund the entire documentary in return for just this one lease. He was turned down.
My suggestion is slightly political and it is, to litigate against the State! To compile and present a discriminatory proof to the Supreme Court of Florida.. and do it while this Governor is in office.
 

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