We need your help in the Keys to fight NOAA, it's more than treasure.

magnetometer

Tenderfoot
Dec 5, 2009
7
25
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
It is much more than treasure. Part of the plan says that if the remaining permit holders find the new, suffocating regulations to difficult, "they may wish to partner with a university or non-profit. This would turn over our history to the radical left-wing universities or non-profits of their choosing. Can you imagine, NOAA is delivering the crown jewel of shipwreck research into the hands of institutional archaeology and Marxist universities! That is just for starters. This plan will drive many if not all commercial fishermen out of business. It will institutionalize and redefine the American Experience in the Keys. The WORST part is this: the resulting economic and demographic displacement will shift the 26th Congressional District to the left, delivering into the hands of the Democratic Party, never to be undone.

Here is the other thing. This is not just about the Keys and shipwrecks. This is about the war that is being waged against all things American by the radical left. This is just an attack on our flank and flashpoint in that war.

There is so much more history to come out of these Keys that has been stifled, a lot more. The Issac Allerton, sank in 1854, partially salvaged in the 80's and since been held at bay by the threat of NOAA. There are projects that will be coming forward next year, which will shock the world. NOAA must be held in check. I am about to air some dirty laundry in the form of two e-mails sent this past week that focus on the corruption at NOAA. My intention is to inform and enrage you to action. Please sign our Petition : https://www.saynotonoaa.org/ and support these two FB pages: Sanctuary Alert! https://bit.ly/2NYyvWz and All Keys Boaters Alliance - Save Our Keys https://bit.ly/32AMlDI

Here is the NOAA dirty laundry, e-mail one to The Superintendent of FKNMS:

Hello Sarah,

It was a pleasure to meet you. I can see why everyone speaks so highly of you. Personally, I am once bitten, twice shy. I took so much grief from my colleagues for expressing my admiration for Brenda as a bright, ambitious young woman with whom, as an exhibition driven business model, I thought we had many shared values. As time passed and the Chinese Water Torture of obstruction wore on, we tried harder to prove our sincerity. It became apparent that she lacked any sincerity and had another agenda. My term for it was that "they are working from a secret playbook". She openly assigned second class citizenship to us as "treasure hunters" and an element from whom the public had to be protected. She explained that "treasure hunters" had dynamited concretions in the 1960's and we apparently bear that cross to this day because she has labeled us as "treasure hunters". I assume such a designation with its restricted civil rights is provided for in the Constitution she swore to uphold and defend. I did not bother to tell her, but as I explained to my friends, I was only ten years old in 1963, and my mother was very strict about no dynamite, plastic explosives or any of that. How absurd! I had a conversation with her once, where I was trying to convince her of our altruistic goals for any potential collection, i.e. exhibition versus the sale of artifacts (if we so chose)when she blurted out, "You still own it anyway". Having majored in Political Science, I am always irritated when people miss use the term "Communist" to refer to anything authoritarian, I was shocked when one of the permit holders came to me and said, "she's a communist". I told him it was the first time I heard the term used correctly since the Cold War, and yes, she is a communist. Having gotten to know her I am not sure she even knows what that means, she just is. Perhaps she was born with contempt for private property, free enterprise, free speech and the rule of law. She may have been born a communist and predisposed against core American values. That's fine, but she does not have the right as a Federal Employee to abuse my civil rights and break the law to inflict her off-script, extra-Constitutional agenda on FKNMS permit holders, her fellow Americans.



As you know, we are an Admiralty Case and while the Sanctuary cannot "terminate" such cases, Brenda XXXXXX sought to circumvent the jurisdiction of the US District Court and the rule of law to obstruct and sabotage our case. It is called , "Denial of Due Proces Under the Color of Law" and she has been arrogant, engaging in it. Everyone realizes that you assumed control of a totally corrupt local agency and I believe the community received you well as we should have. This plan, not of your doing has cast doubt. When I speak of corruption, I am referring to the Morton administration. However, repacing the Superintendent could never erase the culture of corruption born out of a "Noble Cause Corrupted" (it's a thing). To this day, myself, along with my colleagues are still dealing with the momentum of the Morton tenure.

I have a list of specific complaints to share.


First is the way in which my Survey and Inventory Permit renewal was handled



After a routine report and renewal request was submitted to FKNMS, we were issued a renewal of our Survey and Inventory Permit on 11/21/13. We had asked for two things, we asked that our Sanctuary permit area be expanded to match our recently expanded Admiralty search area, and we asked for the use of a two-inch venturi dredge. FKNMS did not grant or decline the request to expand our area, they ignored it. They granted the use of the pump. From the PDF:



“your permit has been renewed for an additional two years. The use of a Venturi- type water dredge system has been approved in accordance with the permit guideline” (attached)


By the Summer of 2015 we were already preparing another routine report and renewal request due in the Fall. Somewhere along the way, Brenda learned that we were talking to XXXXXXXXX of the Florida Keys History and Discovery Museum. She apparently and correctly got the idea we were about to exercise “Step 7” in our S&I permit. As you know, this step allows for the recovery of artifacts for identification purposes. It involved some onerous requirements in terms of having an archaeologist, biologist, conservation lab and local museum to display the items. In a moment where she could not control herself, she muttered almost under her breath, "A museum on the side of the highway is not on the side of the road is not what we had in mind." The hypocrisy was not lost on me when a short while later NOAA had an anniversary function at what is hardly, "a museum on the side of the road". It is just another example of her determination to halt the public study and title to its own history by individuals, in favor of the Marxist model of a more institutionalized, government-issued historical narrative for the "collective", not unlike the salient feature in Alternative 3.

The fact is, in 30 years no one has ever completed the S&I permit including “Step 7”. It was intended to be an obstacle to those permit holders who had Sanctuary only permits. It worked so well that it became apparent no one would even apply for a permit with “Step 7” as an up-front prerequisite. So in practice, “Step 7” was waived and held in abeyance to be exercised as the last step before the permit would have been successfully completed. If we had been so inclined and allowed to execute "Step 7" , we would have distinguished ourselves as the firsts.



She began talking about having us “reapply” for our existing permit instead of requesting a renewal. It made no sense and I asked her why. She said that it was so that NOAA could document any changes in our program, such as boats, equipment or personnel. Bear in mind no one had ever visited our site or asked us any questions about what we were doing. I even caught her not reading our reports.

I pointed out that we routinely included such information in red. She kept on long after her explanations descended to gibberish. It became clear that she was lying and she knew I knew she was lying. Being a congenital liar, she was unfazed, but it was very awkward for me. At times it felt like she was an undercover cop trying to dance me into position. I asked her, Am I about to step on to a trap door? Am I going to get my permit back? Don’t worry, Paul.

We applied for the permit renewal, here is what came back.
“NOAA has determined this project requires a Research and Recovery permit application due to the use of a Venturi operated water dredge and potential limited test excavations.” (attached)
I hope it is clear as to how insane and lame, stupid and lazy that is. In one permit FKNMS allowed the use of the pump. In the very next renewal, the permit is declined due to the use of the very same pump! How did NOAA determine anything? No one had ever been out there, no one asked any questions. Where are the rules? What happened to the requirement of successfully completing the S&I Permit before getting a R&R Permit? This a direct, naked attack on our Admiralty Case, clearly visible from the moon or in court.

While I was denied the honor of being the first ever to complete the S&I Survey including "Step 7", I have the dubious distinction of being the first permit holder to be directed to pursue (No chance in this life of being issued) a Research and Recovery Permit, with extra layers of government packed on like a rented burrow, WITHOUT EVER HAVING IDENTIFIED ANYTHING TO RECOVER.



How does one reconcile the two yellow lines? I would love to hear any good faith explanation for this. I would love for someone to explain how this is not a crime. What is the standard of due process at FKNMS? Is there any, or is everything arbitrary? I tried to bring the matter up with the investigators during the Sean Morton scandal, pointing out that it would be naive to think that with corruption in management, that there would be no collateral damage to the permit holders and the public through negligence or mismanagement. Then I brought it up with Ed Lindelhof. It was like being in an episode of Wagon Train and the Indians were about to attack. I thought Sean Morton was a stooge just from my observations, I never spoke with him. I spoke with Ed Lindelhof and it was like talking to a chimp. Sean Morton could have run over me with his car and he would have justified it.


As for the FOIA request, I may have discovered a flaw in the process. My request was intended to shed light on deliberations surrounding the irregularities (understatement) in the administration of my permit. However, in the first traunch of 134 e-mails, there is NOT ONE WORD related to the issue. I did see where she sent a link to Morton about an article I had written in the local paper. It was after the permit episode, in defiance of her policy of no free press. I am left with one of two explanations; either changes to my permit came from a burning bush with no human input, or the human element has failed us and there is some sort of cover-up in the works.



I will follow up with other examples of the civil rights abuses we have suffered, later. I am in a hurry and do not want to put too much work on your desk. You really do seem to be a nice person and I have handed you a snake. I regret that but this is a very serious issue and I must move forward or endanger the nearly 50 years and no small fortune my family and others like it have invested. Will follow up.



Sincerely,

E-mail number two, the follow-up:

Hello Sarah,

You will recall that on Nov. 6th, I mentioned an episode involving the National Association of Black Scuba Divers and Brenda.


We invited NABSD to join our project at American Shoal and had an agreement in principle. Out of the clear blue, one of the Directors, we will call him KS, called me to say that he regretted having to say it, but NABSD would not be working on our project. He said that they "could not afford to get caught in the middle of the war between the treasure hunters and the archaeologist". My first thought was, "you just became a casualty" , exactly what he was hoping to avoid. He made it perfectly clear than Brenda had threatened NABSD with its good standing if they had anything to do with us, her permit holders.



There are so many things wrong with this on so many levels. To begin with, when a Federal officer threatens a Black civic group, it brings up images of decades past and screams racism to me. I am sure they felt an element of racism as well. It was an act of extortion without a doubt. How does she go from the administration of our permit to the sabotage of the permit and the project? What about the civil rights abuses against both parties? These include the right of assembly, speech, due process and discrimination against both groups. That is just for starters. These are all crimes.


The next basket of complaints might be described as anecdotal, but I will swear to all of them:


1. Brenda warned me that if I did anything in the media to "glamorize treasure hunting" there would be negative consequences. As I have said, the article in the Keys News was placed in defiance of Brenda as a message to say that I was done with her and her abuse of my civil rights and the sabotage of my Admiralty Case. https://bit.ly/2NupSUI


2. I was warned against the use of the word, "treasure" or any mention of Mel Fisher. That may seem like a small thing to some but not to me or any of that Greatest Generation who put their lives on the line for freedom of speech. You could hardly overstate how seriously I take it, especially having been deprived of it by NOAA.



3. We had a plan in the works with FKCC similar to the one with NABSD. Out of the blue, Brenda said, the college should be "wary" of working with you because any archaeologist or aspiring archaeologist might be blackballed and suffer difficulties in finding speaking engagements, and so on. Furthermore, the college itself might suffer in its then-current effort to acquire college accreditation. She said that the effort could be torpedoed by an archaeologist in any given university. Strangely enough, the effort fizzled shortly after that. I have no direct knowledge of any involvement by her. A more suspicious person might have jumped to an unflattering conclusion.


At every turn, Brenda has worked to isolate us from the public, prevent any cultural heritage to be shared with the public and "starve our project and the others for oxygen". The tortious interference and all of the obstruction have extracted an unknown opportunity and economic costs on our project. She routinely obstructed the Sanctuary only permit holders but paid special attention the thwart the Admiralty Cases. Under her tenure, the Submerged Cultural Resources Program has become a Racket Influenced and Corrupt Organization. Bringing Mathew Lawrence in to carry water for institutional archaeology over the rights of the existing and future permit holders is nothing more than lipstick on corruption. As one of my friends put it, "a lead blanket has been placed over the cultural heritage of the Keys". Brenda has cheated and abused an entire community and nation through us and the other permit holders.


Now then, I am not particularly religious, but I think I saw the hand of God enter my vlife last night. Once again out of the blue (that happens a lot), I received a text that described an incident that was EXACTLY the same fact pattern as my NABSD episode with Brenda. It is also common knowledge that she pulled a similar stunt with XXXXX, although he does his best to play it down for his own survival. I am all over this text case and will soon chase down everyone involved.



I was struck by the fact that in the credits section of the Blueprint, Brenda was not listed or I just missed it. There was some speculation that NOAA was trying to "hide a dirty cop". I don't know.



I don't care if Brenda labels us "treasure hunters" or "fuzzy Easter chicks" she does not have the right to deny us our civil rights or due process. This is something that is not going to go away. Brenda has been labeled "a serial abuser" in our circle. It does not carry the stigma of reduced Constitutional protections as the designation of "treasure hunter", but it is accurate and she must be held accountable. I am appalled that not only did she have enablers and co-conspirators all along the way, but no one at NOAA has shown any concern. It is what I have to call the AOC phenomenon, the most bug-eyed radical liberal leads the charge and no one has the courage to speak up.







Sincerely,
 

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jeff of pa

Super Moderator
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Dec 19, 2003
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Thread has Been Stickied to the Top :coffee2:

Please Note* I did not read this, it is Too Long for my Admitted Uneducated
Mind on the Subject.

Take it for what it is Worth & As long as it is On the Side of Shipwreck Treasure Hunters, I Would think it belongs here.
 
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Billieg

Sr. Member
Jul 19, 2019
388
831
Deltona Fl
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Thread has Been Stickied to the Top :coffee2:

Please Note* I did not read this, it is Too Long for my Admitted Uneducated
Mind on the Subject.

Take it for what it is Worth & As long as it is On the Side of Shipwreck Treasure Hunters, I Would think it belongs here.

I agree with you. It's too long and complicated for me to understand. If it's fighting against the Leftist I'm all for it just give me a simple way to do it.
 

PhipsFolly

Hero Member
Sep 30, 2005
632
589
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I read it all and it’s important for everyone in Florida (and in this country) to see what’s going on within our government by some very corrupt individuals or parties... this directly impacts us all and our Constitutional rights and how they are being eroded away rapidly and in full view but not many are paying attention... and treasure hunting is being destroyed as we know it in this state by NOAA and DHR and greedy self serving bureaucrats and institutionalized archaeologists... if you love history and our passion for researching and recovering it, you best pay attention to what’s happening... although this post was lengthy, it is important and worth reading to understand what’s going on...
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
1,047
402
Lisbon
"Can you imagine, NOAA is delivering the crown jewel of shipwreck research into the hands of institutional archaeology and Marxist universities! That is just for starters. This plan will drive many if not all commercial fishermen out of business"...

I didn't knew there were any Marxist universities in the USoA.. but, with POTUS warming up to Putin, the idea might make sense... A "Vlamidir I. Lenin" University, like the one in Havana, paid by the FSB and some Russian oligarchs.. :D

PS: you surely meant Treasure Hunters and not Fishermen..
 

Jrsmith

Tenderfoot
May 6, 2019
9
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Colton, NY
Primary Interest:
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It has become increasingly clear what sort of politics are allowed on this site, and what is deleted in the name of “no politics allowed”. I find it disappointing, if the policy is no politics, honestly that’s fine with me, but I have a problem with allowing one side to speak and silencing the other. As far as the NOAA goes, I too don’t know enough about it to say so, generally I would side with the treasure hunters if possible. This case should be presented on its merits, not on political opinions.
 

FISHEYE

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Feb 27, 2004
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This website has a list of all the bluestar operators.https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/bluestar/operators.html
This is a pdf file that lists all the guidelines that the bluestar operators have to follow and if they break the rules they are taken off the blue star website.https://nmsfloridakeys.blob.core.wi.../docs/2020-blue-star-diving-framework.pdf.All these blue star operators need to be boycotted plus watchdogs need to document them doing anything wrong that doesn't follow the guidelines in that pdf file.Contact marina owners and property owners to get them all evicted.Dont sell them anything,no fuel,etc,or provide them with services,boat engine work,etc.Make them not want to be in the keys.Then when NOAA's bluestar program fails then maybe things will change.follow the money.I bet NOAA or NOAA workers are getting kickbacks from bluestar operators.those links and pdf was found at https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/bluestar/become.html
 

Magoopeter

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Jan 21, 2016
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Really it is bigger than this, organisations like the NOOA MMO AND UNISCO have been restricting our human rights for years. All academic research papers used to progress their arguments are unbalanced and one sided self-funded, the man on the street is are consulted.

UNISCO say they are there to record and protect Human heritage and culture, yet they chose what heritage and history to protect, the history and heritage of the treasure hunter is now seen as a form of destructive robbery. Why did people first venture beneath the sea for self-gain and a way to survive or make a day’s wage, they ignore the real history of humans who for thousands if years have ventured beneath the sea for profit.

The corruption within governmental departments is riff it is wrong for you or I to salvage a historical vessel and sell the artefacts for self-gain, but it perfectly ok for private companies to be awarded contracts, and paid with the tax payers money to carry out surveys on this shipwreck sites along with archaeological excavations costing the tax payers millions that would be better spent in hospitals treating sick children.

Too much importance is given to many shipwrecks, we have a wealth of document history we can even build them today to the same design, an artefact taken from a protected shipwreck can lead to a prosecution but most artefacts that are found on these wrecks can be openly bought in antiques shops around the world, there are far better surviving examples of every day object that have stood the test of time on land than within a shipwreck.

These unelected law makers are rung way with our rights, its time to form a world wide organisation to stand up to them and protect the Law of salvage, and the law finds.

How many government Archaeologist have explored and discovered wrecks, they let us find them then restrict or access to them.

Signed it..
 

Salvor6

Silver Member
Feb 5, 2005
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You are not the first one to fight this. There have been at least 5 well funded organizations fighting the state against restrictive treasure hunting laws.They all lost. After all, you're fighting the state.
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
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The corruption within governmental departments is riff it is wrong for you or I to salvage a historical vessel and sell the artefacts for self-gain, but it perfectly ok for private companies to be awarded contracts, and paid with the tax payers money to carry out surveys on this shipwreck sites along with archaeological excavations costing the tax payers millions that would be better spent in hospitals treating sick children.

With archaeologists no artifacts are sold. As for the sick children... well, a Raytheon's Tomahawk missile costs $1.4 million. Each.



How many government Archaeologist have explored and discovered wrecks, they let us find them then restrict or access to them.

I have found about a dozen, from Spanish galleones de la plata to a Portuguese Great War minesweeper, sunk by a German mine with half of it's crew. In the US, I could start with Delgado and start counting.. :)
 
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agflit

Hero Member
Mar 25, 2015
604
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Wisconsin, N.C. Fl, Bahamas....wherever the wrecks
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I have found about a dozen, from Spanish galleones de la plata to a Portuguese Great War minesweeper, sunk by a German mine with half of it's crew. In the US, I could start with Delgado and start counting..


Please...do. I would be curious as to how many "undiscovered" wrecks you have been fortunate enough to locate...
 

Alexandre

Bronze Member
Oct 21, 2009
1,047
402
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Me and my team?

In the Azores:

Angra D - early 17th century Spanish galleon
Angra C - mid-17th century Dutch ship
"Nossa Senhora da Luz" - 1615 Portuguese Eastindiaman
"HMS Pallas" - sunk 1782
"Lidador" - sunk 1878
"George" - lost 1850

On mainland Portugal:

"Belinho 1" - early 16th century Iberian ship


"NRP Roberto Ivens" - 1917 minesweeper



Off the United Arab Emirates:
Three modern wrecks
 

Hillbilly Prince

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Aug 9, 2018
4,999
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I believe in capitalism and limited goverment. Capitalism has its flaws but it is the system which lifted more people out of poverty than any other. America is the living proof of what the free market can do for humankind.
Therefore, if a group invests their time, funds and even their lives into locating and salvaging a centuries old shipwreck, I believe they should be free to dispense of it as they choose. Obviously, there should be rules involving damage to the ocean's environment
In this life I will never dive on a shipwreck. But even someone who occasionally hunts for clad in a park or what have you will be affected by those who have the bureaucratic mindset which tells them to quash the activity of one for the "good" of all.
If a group of archaeologists associated with an university want to compete with the private groups for searching out and salvaging these wrecks, using university funds, let them. But do not let the bureaucrats tilt the game.
 

Hillbilly Prince

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It has become increasingly clear what sort of politics are allowed on this site, and what is deleted in the name of “no politics allowed”. I find it disappointing, if the policy is no politics, honestly that’s fine with me, but I have a problem with allowing one side to speak and silencing the other. As far as the NOAA goes, I too don’t know enough about it to say so, generally I would side with the treasure hunters if possible. This case should be presented on its merits, not on political opinions.

If you wish to discuss polutics you can pay a fee and become a charter member. You can then debate politics in the Politics forum.
Having said that, I think there is probably a certain culture associated with treasure hunting which is likely perceptible here. Many types of treasure hunting can involve hard work, tramping about in all sorts of weather, digging, and outdoor activities. Not the sort of things which attract the "woke" and "shook" types who squander their youth staring at a device.
 
OP
magnetometer

magnetometer

Tenderfoot
Dec 5, 2009
7
25
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  • Thread Starter
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  • #17
Alexandre, I applaud your work, it is fantastic. I also believe that the government and academia have a critical but limited role to play in making sure that the public's interest served. The problem is that institutional archaeology has failed to make their work relevant and accessible (in the US at least). I would remind everyone that archaeology, which has only assumed domain since 1962, did not create world history. That history belongs to all of us, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker... To label anyone who is not an institutional archaeologist a "treasure hunter" is disingenuous and covetous of what belongs to everyone. The government cannot be in total control. I give you the "Great Leap Forward" and the "Cultural Revolution" as two bad ideas gone wrong. There must be a break in the impasse that condemns shipwrecks to in situ oblivion at the expense of preservation and diaspora. As for the sale of artifacts, I prefer an exhibition business model. However, with our ability to maintain collections digitally or "virtually intact" in today's world, we must consider the virtues of diaspora. Where goes Spanish or Portuguese artifacts and history, so goes the culture. I am not a bit shy about exalting the contribution to world history by these two countries through exhibition or in the hands of people, diaspora. We need it now more than ever, just like Nationalism over Globalism, which will surely come bace to bite... I do not understand why archaeology cannot make peace with the free enterprise that ultimately supports us all. As for your comment about my Marxist university remark, you would have a different position if your own universities were producing anti-Portuguese graduates with no respect for your culture, history, system and core values. That is unthinkable, right? It was once unthinkable here. With sincere respect and admiration, PER
 

Magoopeter

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Jan 21, 2016
251
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With archaeologists no artifacts are sold.

Well to say that archaeologists don’t sell artefacts is taking the high ground, it is like the proverbial Priest who stands in the pulpit pronouncing to all before him, that they are sinners, while he alone is the one true representative of God.
 

Magoopeter

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Jan 21, 2016
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I don’t think anyone needs muzzled or anyone takes the slightest offense at any comments on here we won’t change anyone’s point of view with our little posts and I’m sure the most of the comments are tongue in cheek, but it’s good that people express them as they all have that right to, in a free and open forum such as we have here. I always enjoy reading the posts and some are funny some are barmy, some fascinating even educational!
 

Hillbilly Prince

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I don’t think anyone needs muzzled or anyone takes the slightest offense at any comments on here we won’t change anyone’s point of view with our little posts and I’m sure the most of the comments are tongue in cheek, but it’s good that people express them as they all have that right to, in a free and open forum such as we have here. I always enjoy reading the posts and some are funny some are barmy, some fascinating even educational!

I will ask how does a centuries old shipwreck belong to all of us? History may be shared by all, but how do you divide up the physical artifacts?
Why woould anyone put forth the enormous effort to locate and salvage a wreck if it is to be seized and artifacts squirreled away out of sight.
Like your thougtful posts.
 
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