What is this object

[n3tuf]

Found this near an old railway that ran thru an area of a Revolutionary war battle. It was found about 8" down. The object is about 1" high and 1/2" in diameter. It looks like copper or brass and just a bit larger diameter than a 50 Cal bullet.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Bigcypresshunter says he is "not a bullet guy." Well, I'm a bullet guy... and I am siding with him on this object's ID. "Saboted" solid copper hollowpoint shotgun-slugs are made by more than one ammunition-manufacturer. (Do a Google-search and see for yourself.) There are often small "cosmetic" differences between the same type of item when it is made by different manufacturers. That fact most probably explains the inconsequential difference between the specimen posted by n3tuf and the Remington specimens in the photo posted by bigcypresshunter.

An example of what I'm talking about is car tires. Examine various P175/70-14 passenger-car (not truck) tires, made by different manufacturers. Those various brands of P175/70-14 passenger-car tires may have a slightly different tread-pattern, but they're all still "a passenger-car tire." I believe n3tuf simply found a different brand of "saboted" solid copper hollowpoint shotgun-slug than the Remington-made one posted by bigcypresshunter.

 

[dscott67]

i tell you what ! take the one that you found and stick it in the end of a 12 guage and look at it ,then tell us what you see ! if it's to small try a 20,16,18,, and so forth ! it would be hard to precisely mic. it because it is a spent round !

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

i tell you what ! take the one that you found and stick it in the end of a 12 guage and look at it ,then tell us what you see ! if it's to small try a 20,16,18,, and so forth ! it would be hard to precisely mic. it because it is a spent round !

Good idea but what other bullets are solid copper with no rifling after firing? Could you post a pic of the bullet cartridge you think this is?

 

[Monty]

I have to agree with Bigcy, it has to be a saboted round as it has no rifling marks. But to repeat myself, what was troubling me was how thick the metal was on each of the petals. It must have struck something really hard to open up like that, and it would take a high velocity at a 90 degree angle to be so uniform I would think. I am not at all familiar with solid copper saboted shotgun slugs, but that would be a real possibility. It certainly is not a classic example of a bullet fired from a rifled barrel. Monty

 

[dscott67]

ok,it's not the bullet that does not have the rifiling, it's the gun that did'nt have the rifiling,,i'm going back and trying to read the posts it seems to me that the cal. was in question? 1 example "The Taurus Judge"is a pistol and has no rifiling.the round in question has a ring approx. in the center which is a dead giveaway that a cased round has,,,i'll have another example in a few,this is my oppinion and has no bearing on anyones decision for i am not a professional gun and or projectile analyst,i do know that a casing will leave a ring on the round,it was not shot out of a slug barrel,it is contorted so you can't get a measurement on it,so if it has no rifiling that rules out any firearm that does have !! the question about solid copper rounds,if he cuts it in half and submits a photo of it only then will i believe it is solid copper,it' may be copper jacketed lead which may lead him somewhere else,,,idk

 

[dscott67]

I don't think it's a match yet. There is no crimp marks like the one copper slug shown in the previous post and the length if the side slices for expansion don't match up either. The weight is .993 oz

What crimp mark? There are no crimp marks on most saboted bullets including shotgun sabots. I only posted that last pic to show a copper coated lead bullet.


I believe your slug is a hollow point solid copper shotgun sabot. What do you think it is? I agree it looks older but how old are solid copper bullets? I dont think it could be a muzzleloading sabot because its not lead.
Do they may solid copper .54 caliber bullets?

Here is the pic again.

the ring on it in the last pic,and the one before that !! it may not be a modern style crimp like would be on a modern 30-06 round.i'm just saying,i think it is a crimp ring !

 

[dscott67]

ok,it's not the bullet that does not have the rifiling, it's the gun that did'nt have the rifiling,,i'm going back and trying to read the posts it seems to me that the cal. was in question? 1 example "The Taurus Judge"is a pistol and has no rifiling.the round in question has a ring approx. in the center which is a dead giveaway that a cased round has,,,i'll have another example in a few,this is my oppinion and has no bearing on anyones decision for i am not a professional gun and or projectile analyst,i do know that a casing will leave a ring on the round,it was not shot out of a slug barrel,it is contorted so you can't get a measurement on it,so if it has no rifiling that rules out any firearm that does have !! the question about solid copper rounds,if he cuts it in half and submits a photo of it only then will i believe it is solid copper,it' may be copper jacketed lead which may lead him somewhere else,,,idk

the only round that i have found so far is a barnes triple shock,and it is made for rifles and a pistol that is a .30 cal 180 grn.!

 

[dscott67]

ok,it's not the bullet that does not have the rifiling, it's the gun that did'nt have the rifiling,,i'm going back and trying to read the posts it seems to me that the cal. was in question? 1 example "The Taurus Judge"is a pistol and has no rifiling.the round in question has a ring approx. in the center which is a dead giveaway that a cased round has,,,i'll have another example in a few,this is my oppinion and has no bearing on anyones decision for i am not a professional gun and or projectile analyst,i do know that a casing will leave a ring on the round,it was not shot out of a slug barrel,it is contorted so you can't get a measurement on it,so if it has no rifiling that rules out any firearm that does have !! the question about solid copper rounds,if he cuts it in half and submits a photo of it only then will i believe it is solid copper,it' may be copper jacketed lead which may lead him somewhere else,,,idk

the only round that i have found so far is a barnes triple shock,and it is made for rifles and a pistol that is a .30 cal 180 grn.!

and speer ,cva, powerbelt makes solid copper rounds for rifiled firearms up to 50 cal./500 grains, for rifiled barrels,they are all modern (meaning within the last couple of years),,just some info.!! and they are hollow points ! the earliest patent date i found is (sept 22,1998,jeffery stone inv.,remington arms,assignee)

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

ok,it's not the bullet that does not have the rifiling, it's the gun that did'nt have the rifiling,,i'm going back and trying to read the posts it seems to me that the cal. was in question?

I understand but we have to take everything in consideration including the lack of rifling, copper slug and caliber.

So I ask again because Im a bit confused by your answer dscott. What cartridge do you think this copper slug was crimped to?



n3tuf is this copper or copper coated lead?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I don't think it's a match yet. There is no crimp marks like the one copper slug shown in the previous post and the length if the side slices for expansion don't match up either. The weight is .993 oz

What crimp mark? There are no crimp marks on most saboted bullets including shotgun sabots. I only posted that last pic to show a copper coated lead bullet.


I believe your slug is a hollow point solid copper shotgun sabot. What do you think it is? I agree it looks older but how old are solid copper bullets? I dont think it could be a muzzleloading sabot because its not lead.
Do they may solid copper .54 caliber bullets?

Here is the pic again.

the ring on it in the last pic,and the one before that !! it may not be a modern style crimp like would be on a modern 30-06 round.i'm just saying,i think it is a crimp ring !

Could it be you guys are confusing this mark with a crimped cartridge ring?

 

[dscott67]

yes,that is a strong possibility,i did not see that ring,sorry,,i believe your right on the type ,so what is the cal ?,and that would make our round a modern type and manufactured within in last 10 years unless it's copper jacketed !! good hunting !

 

[hunterV3]

A .50 cal muzzleloader sabot usually uses a .44 cal bullet. After firing there will be no rifling on the bullet, just on the plastic wad. Most of the time the bullet will still have a crimp ring as it is the same bullet manufactured for use in traditional ammunition (with a case). Without the actual diameter of the bullet in question, I used .58 as the diameter (from picture with 3 ringer above). The plastic wad on a .50 cal is approximately .06 inches thick. The nominal diameter of a 16 gauge shotgun is .66 inches, so .66-.06=.60 inches, two hundredths different from the found bullet.

My guess is a 16 gauge solid copper hollow point shotgun sabot (that expanded perfectly when it passed through the deer) or 12 gauge (.73 cal.) with a thicker wad.

 

[n3tuf]

Well guys I was out detecting in the same area again today and I found another expanded bullet but the metal expanded looks thicker than the other I found. I also noticed someone had a tree stand nearby for hunting. I think Cannonball guy is correct in that it is a saboted copper hollow point slug. I cannot find any lead in it. So I would say the mystery is solved. Thanks to all! I originally thought it might have been a rivet used by the railroad because I found it so close to an old elevated railway built in 1859. Nearby is the bridge that crosses the Brandywine creek where in forming the embankment for this bridge the skeleton of a soldier was found, together with the brass belt buckle and leather buttons of his uniform, the latter indicating that it was the remains of an English soldier. A bullet-the one which had deprived him of his life-was found among his rib bones. Excerpt from History Of Delaware County PA. By Ashmead

Here are the photos of the bullet found today...

 

[dscott67]

Well guys I was out detecting in the same area again today and I found another expanded bullet but the metal expanded looks thicker than the other I found. I also noticed someone had a tree stand nearby for hunting. I think Cannonball guy is correct in that it is a saboted copper hollow point slug. I cannot find any lead in it. So I would say the mystery is solved. Thanks to all! I originally thought it might have been a rivet used by the railroad because I found it so close to an old elevated railway built in 1859. Nearby is the bridge that crosses the Brandywine creek where in forming the embankment for this bridge the skeleton of a soldier was found, together with the brass belt buckle and leather buttons of his uniform, the latter indicating that it was the remains of an English soldier. A bullet-the one which had deprived him of his life-was found among his rib bones. Excerpt from History Of Delaware County PA. By Ashmead

Here are the photos of the bullet found today...

your welcome ! we are always here to create collabaration and contravening !!! sorry for some of the confusion !!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I guess a saboted bullet leaves little for forensics.



n3tuf, do the same thing you did but check solved on your first original post and the green check will be in the right place. Thanks for posting your finds..

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

n3tuf wrote:
> Well guys I was out detecting in the same area again today and I found another expanded bullet but the metal expanded looks thicker than the other I found.

Regarding your 2nd find, which is thicker-walled and longer than your previous find:
Whereas your first find is for shotguns... your second find's "quartered" nose (only four slits, instead of six) and the bottom part's slightly-tapered "boat-tail" form are characteristics of some brands of saboted solid-copper hollowpoint bullets for a blackpowder deerhunter's rifle. That matches nicely with the deer-hunting stand being nearby.

 

[Monty]

Well, I'm glad you guys figured this one out. I sure got confused at some of the answers. I've shot all kinds of saboted bullets in my muzzle loaders and never was able to recover one. They all were either deep into a target berm or went completely through a deer. I mostly used a 300 gr. .44 caliber saboted pistol bullet in my .50 cal rifle and just changed over to a pointed .45 caliber saboted bullet with a plastic nose when I got down in my back and haven't been deer hunting since. So I'm no expert on expanded bullets . Thanks for all the input and I hope we all learned something. Monty

 

[dscott67]

Well, I'm glad you guys figured this one out. I sure got confused at some of the answers. I've shot all kinds of saboted bullets in my muzzle loaders and never was able to recover one. They all were either deep into a target berm or went completely through a deer. I mostly used a 300 gr. .44 caliber saboted pistol bullet in my .50 cal rifle and just changed over to a pointed .45 caliber saboted bullet with a plastic nose when I got down in my back and haven't been deer hunting since. So I'm no expert on expanded bullets . Thanks for all the input and I hope we all learned something. Monty

i learned plenty !! and thanks for being honorable !