Willie Doughits Bandit Priest Treasure Caballo Mountains

[gollum]

"Hi. I'm Buster Ward. I'd like to rent that big truck from you. You see, my pal Willie and I discovered seven tons of Spanish gold bars up there in the Caballo Mountains, just south of Hot Springs. We'll be going in there in a couple days. Now, don't you tell anyone, OK? It's a big secret you know, and we don't want anyone else to know about this. Got it?"

I think you are forgetting something here SDCFIA,

By 1932, EVERYBODY knew about Willie and Buster's Cave. Willie (by his admission) had been kidnapped twice and tortured. Neither Willie nor Buster could go anywhere near Granite Peak without half of TorC (Hot Springs), Hatch, and Rincon following them.

Here is another account of that story:

An incident reported in various newspapers from Hot Springs to El Paso revealed Buster Ward's efforts to divulge the location of the entrance to the cave he and Willie Douthit had kept secret. For some unknown reason, Ward made plans to rent 10 trucks from a local lumberyard in Hot Springs at $100 each and move the rest of the gold out of the cave and turn it over to the authorities; the reason for this dramatic turn has never been clearly understood. Although Buster had gone to great lengths to set things in motion to remove the gold, at the last minute when trucks were approaching the area where the cave was located, Buster broke down and cried out that he couldn't go through with it. But there was even more drama attached to the moment.

According to accounts given by individuals who knew what happened that day, shortly after the convoy neared Granite Peak at a place close to where the gold was hidden, a flash of light reflected down on the men from a spot high on Granite Peak just above the truck caravan. Immediately, Buster assumed it was Willie and let everyone know they were in danger, believing for certain that Douthit was sighting him with the business end of a rifle. Two Sheriff's Deputies and four Federal Marshals responded and rode out on horseback in the direction where the flash had come from.

The person they were after eluded them, and was never found.

This version says to me that Buster (after losing both his legs) wanted to have a comfortable rest of his life. In wanting that, it looks like he made an arrangement with the Feds. Turn over the gold and get a big honkin' finders fee. Otherwise, why would two Sheriff's Deputies and Four Federal Marshals be on site?

Mike

 

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[gollum]

.................one other thing I found about Robert Thomas "Buster" Ward Jr is that he died in Phoenix, AZ on 04 June 1942 at the ripe old age of 39. He had no spouse or children.

There was a very famous Dutch Hunter named Bob L Ward, that had a cabin in the Superstition Mountains. No way the same person, but the name resemblance is awesome!

COINCIDENCE? Probably, but a neat one nonetheless!

Mike

 

[mann]

TM2, I was not aware of said report I will attempt to research thanks for the comment.


Gollum,

That is the same Info I have located in old newspapers, books and interviews. Very accurate as usual. I was not aware of Busters death at such an early age thanks for that. As stated earlier for Willie, why or how would Buster who we all agree had some access to the gold bars not mention anything to his relatives (father, sister) about its's location. We can all be someone or something else here, but someone knows who we are why not help them especially decades later?While I believe there are many if not hundreds of fake maps out there on the Caballo's and the real or original map is sitting several feet under rock and dirt prob in the very cave. How after thousands of hunters has the treasure not been found? Very curious when so many believe to have the very map. I have heard or read many theories but the human factor is certain. Why do we not know for certain what legend it was Willie found LaRue, Nevarez, Maximilian's, Jesuits, etc., etc? someone somewhere has that little piece that could blow it wide open or that is what I keep telling myself!

The map as I understand it was just some strange lines and several symbols (numbers)? No pictures or words at least what most would understand. Willie had sextant and sundial found said cave told Buster the rest is uncertain. Anyway that's my spin and I do mean spin. Let the hunt continue.

 

[sdcfia]

.................one other thing I found about Robert Thomas "Buster" Ward Jr is that he died in Phoenix, AZ on 04 June 1942 at the ripe old age of 39. He had no spouse or children.

There was a very famous Dutch Hunter named Bob L Ward, that had a cabin in the Superstition Mountains. No way the same person, but the name resemblance is awesome!

COINCIDENCE? Probably, but a neat one nonetheless!

Mike

Yeah, that Arizona Death Certificate for Ward is interesting. It indicates that he had been an Arizona resident since 1928. Speaking of coincidences, the funeral director in Phoenix was named Forman. Ha ha.

“An incident reported in various newspapers from Hot Springs to El Paso revealed Buster Ward's efforts to divulge the location of the entrance to the cave he and Willie Douthit had kept secret. For some unknown reason, Ward made plans to rent 10 trucks from a local lumberyard in Hot Springs at $100 each and move the rest of the gold out of the cave and turn it over to the authorities; the reason for this dramatic turn has never been clearly understood. Although Buster had gone to great lengths to set things in motion to remove the gold, at the last minute when trucks were approaching the area where the cave was located, Buster broke down and cried out that he couldn't go through with it. But there was even more drama attached to the moment.

According to accounts given by individuals who knew what happened that day, shortly after the convoy neared Granite Peak at a place close to where the gold was hidden, a flash of light reflected down on the men from a spot high on Granite Peak just above the truck caravan. Immediately, Buster assumed it was Willie and let everyone know they were in danger, believing for certain that Douthit was sighting him with the business end of a rifle. Two Sheriff's Deputies and four Federal Marshals responded and rode out on horseback in the direction where the flash had come from.”

The person they were after eluded them, and was never found.

This version says to me that Buster (after losing both his legs) wanted to have a comfortable rest of his life. In wanting that, it looks like he made an arrangement with the Feds. Turn over the gold and get a big honkin' finders fee. Otherwise, why would two Sheriff's Deputies and Four Federal Marshals be on site?

Newspaper articles - hoo boy. What that newspaper story quite clearly tells me is that Ward wanted to convince the world that the “treasure” was located in his and Willie's "secret" Granite Peak vicinity, and that he carefully staged this well-reported dog and pony show - complete with a convoy of trucks and last-minute "lone gunman" hysterics to make sure that it was forever imprinted in the public's mind. Oh, the "drama", as the story says. Worked, eh?

By the way, speaking of newspaper reports, that one you posted in Post #19, isn't it indicated that the "Caballo Treasure Map" first surfaced in 1909? 1909 - interesting date. What's that all about? And how does it relate to the Doc-Willie-Buster-Reynolds adventures a couple decades later? A mistake? If so, a big one. If not, a new can of worms.

 

[gollum]

Yeah, that Arizona Death Certificate for Ward is interesting. It indicates that he had been an Arizona resident since 1928. Speaking of coincidences, the funeral director in Phoenix was named Forman. Ha ha.



Newspaper articles - hoo boy. What that newspaper story quite clearly tells me is that Ward wanted to convince the world that the “treasure” was located in his and Willie's "secret" Granite Peak vicinity, and that he carefully staged this well-reported dog and pony show - complete with a convoy of trucks and last-minute "lone gunman" hysterics to make sure that it was forever imprinted in the public's mind. Oh, the "drama", as the story says. Worked, eh?

By the way, speaking of newspaper reports, that one you posted in Post #19, isn't it indicated that the "Caballo Treasure Map" first surfaced in 1909? 1909 - interesting date. What's that all about? And how does it relate to the Doc-Willie-Buster-Reynolds adventures a couple decades later? A mistake? If so, a big one. If not, a new can of worms.

Actually, it shows that he moved to the community in 1933, but lived in Arizona for 14 years (1928).

View attachment BusterWardDeath Certificate.pdf


You also state that:

Newspaper articles - hoo boy. What that newspaper story quite clearly tells me is that Ward wanted to convince the world that the “treasure” was located in his and Willie's "secret" Granite Peak vicinity, and that he carefully staged this well-reported dog and pony show - complete with a convoy of trucks and last-minute "lone gunman" hysterics to make sure that it was forever imprinted in the public's mind. Oh, the "drama", as the story says. Worked, eh?

So, you are saying that Buster spent $1000 to hire ten trucks. Got local and federal law enforcement officers involved in a charade? Few people (that knew him) believe Willie could not have been the guy behind the scope on Granite Peak, because Willie was not a very good rider, and the guy behind the scope outrode six men trained professionally to ride horses (or knew about a secret cave on Granite Peak)............and then right after that, moved to Phoenix. Why in God's Name would he want to "IMPRINT" this right before leaving the state? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Someone should talk to his relatives. He had a brother "Oliver" and a sister "Diamond".

Mike

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Actually, it shows that he moved to the community in 1933, but lived in Arizona for 14 years (1928).

View attachment 1204859

So, you are saying that Buster spent $1000 to hire ten trucks. Got local and federal law enforcement officers involved in a charade? Few people (that knew him) believe Willie could not have been the guy behind the scope on Granite Peak, because Willie was not a very good rider, and the guy behind the scope outrode six men trained professionally to ride horses (or knew about a secret cave on Granite Peak)............and then right after that, moved to Phoenix. Why in God's Name would he want to "IMPRINT" this right before leaving the state? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Mike

Correct. He moved to somewhere in AZ in 1928, which is also the date of some of the Caballo rumors. In 1932, he staged the Granite Peak sham. He spent money for the trucks and lied to the cops to get a nice crowd. If there was a guy on the ridge with a gun - a perfect excuse for Buster to freak out, say he was afraid for his life, and call off the party - the rider was likely paid for his part.

Now, let me help you out with the "sense" of the scam - the "why in God's name" part. Willie and Buster wanted people to focus on Granite Peak so that they might ignore other locations in the Caballos. That way, if they returned to the Caballos later, all the rubes would be hanging out at Granite Peak and their true site would remain private. ¿Consíguelo? Looks like it worked too - that's where people still believe the treasure cave is.

Any idea about that 1909 date?

 

[gollum]

Correct. He moved to somewhere in AZ in 1928, which is also the date of some of the Caballo rumors. In 1932, he staged the Granite Peak sham. He spent money for the trucks and lied to the cops to get a nice crowd. If there was a guy on the ridge with a gun - a perfect excuse for Buster to freak out, say he was afraid for his life, and call off the party - the rider was likely paid for his part.

Now, let me help you out with the "sense" of the scam - the "why in God's name" part. Willie and Buster wanted people to focus on Granite Peak so that they might ignore other locations in the Caballos. That way, if they returned to the Caballos later, all the rubes would be hanging out at Granite Peak and their true site would remain private. ¿Consíguelo? Looks like it worked too - that's where people still believe the treasure cave is.

Any idea about that 1909 date?

I personally think that either the paper got the story wrong (likely they Willie/Buster said they had been searching the mountains for treasure since 1909, and they assumed they had that map then) OOOORRRRRRRR: Willie/Buster lied about having the map since 1909, which would throw off suspicion from Willie for murdering Jack Reynolds. The 1909 date also coincides with a little story about Doc getting his map from Geronimo while the Chief was in jail (even though Doc was only born in 1905).

Another little known story is about Doc getting kidnapped and tortured. In about 1938, Doc came limping home. The soles of both feet were badly burned. Ova had to smear lard on his feet and wrap them in flour sack strips. Said he was crippled for months. About that time, different members of the family were getting kidnapping threats. She also said that was when he changed from a happy guy into a mean alchoholic .......................... eeeeeeexcept for the fact that he was drunk waving his pistol around at Anne's Place, and getting arrested in 1934 (about four years before his kidnapping). The ONLY thing that is clearly evident in anything to do with Willie/Buster/Doc/San Andres/Caballos/Victorio Peak/Burbank Canyon/Granite Peak is that there is a large body of information that EVERY one of them kept from almost everybody else.

Another problem with your theory is that we now know exactly where their "Stash Cave" was in Hackberry Draw. The Stash Cave could not have been a very long way from the Treasure Cave.


Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Another problem with your theory is that we now know exactly where their "Stash Cave" was in Hackberry Draw. The Stash Cave could not have been a very long way from the Treasure Cave.

Mike

Yeah, "we know exactly" what those guys were doing 80 years ago, don't we? Well, at least you're certain about it. And the stories go on and on. And people still sleuth the Granite Peak area with high hopes. Most of the truly creative T or C scammers have passed on now, so I guess the new argonauts have to rely on books and the internet.

Here's another stirring version that I saved years ago from another, ahem, TH forum. It's a doozy - we just love this stuff. It's maybe not as off the wall as the William White "collection" of Caballo lore, but, hey, at least there's "an old Spanish treasure map" floating around in it.

"The glyph I talked about is in Palomas Gap closer to the west passage opening just above the road, if you can call that a road. It is a petro of a bird with a twig in its mouth, just like the one in the Utah glyph on the other forum. I believe that it directs the observer to a location higher up on the top of the mountains. Ive been up there and it's tough even when coming in from the Big Apple. Im relatively sure that the treasures in that whole area were located by the KGC and reburied or closed up. Most of them are in my records. The KGC had an entire cadre of researchers who went to Spain and Mexico to do research.

Have you been to the cave about 100 feet south of Bat Cave. Its down about 50 feet from the rock face. They call it Jimmys hole. It very interesting as it is very well and intentionally concealed many years ago. It basically is a volcanic blowout that is many millions of years old and it was covered very carefully. I think that at one time by the Indians. It looks like it use to go all the way into the mountain. But its blocked now by this vocanic ash, that sticks to everything. They say that when it is very quiet in there you can hear the clanging of a metal door or something. Ive heard it and its spooky.

Heres the start of the story and this is going to be long. Its called Seven is the Holy Number or it is also known as the 7 Lost Cities of Gold. I will post it separately.

A guy named Doc Noss found it and it eventually became his demise. I involves the Hembrillo Basin and Victorio Peak. I should also mention that Victorio Peak Treasure is one the treasures of the Four Kings. The four kings are Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico. Its comprised mostly of Emperor Maximilian's personal treasure that was moved there by the KGC plus the lost treasure of Padre LaRue which is actually the lost mine that is in Victorio Peak. There is also treasure that the Indians stole from the Spanish who tried to cross the Joranado, which was a treacherous passage in its day. The huge Spanish gold pack trains would try to hurry as fast as they could between Albuquerque and El Paso, the doorway to the north. They normally followed the Rio Grande but if you know the area between the River and the Caballo, aint no way.

The way the treasure was discovered is there were 4 KGC Codices brought out of Victorio Peak by Doc Noss aka Tom Starr in 1932-1933. Noss got one map from someone who stole it from J. Frank Dalton aka Jesse James, at Rush Springs, Okla. in 1932. There was a Negro named Myler who was charged with the chest of KGC maps that Dalton had in his possession. Some how this Myler was tortured and killed to get the maps. Joe Hunter had several of the maps but couldn't break the code. Anyway, Noss is befriended by a young Indian boy who has a old Spanish treasure map, drawn on a skin, that was found in a piano by an old Indian woman who raised him by the name of Mrs. Peron.

The Spanish map showed the location of a treasure buried at the base of Granite Peak in a solid rock Spanish vault. The boy befriended Noss who had a truck and they went off together to find the vault at Granite. The story goes that they found and opened the vault and Noss goes crazy and murders the boy and throws his body into the vault with the treasure. He gets some bars but has a hard time selling them because it was illegal to own gold in those days. Also in the vault was a map showing the location on the KGC depository in Victorio Peak, which Noss also locates. The treasure is so vast that Noss starts to go nuts about it tries to move some bars but every time he gets someone to help he winds up killing them too. Everyone goes into the hole. Must be crowded in there. Eventually Noss takes on a partner and they get in a fight and he kills Noss. But the story doesn't end here.

As I said some of the treasures at Victorio Peak was the old Padre LaRue lost mine Maximilians treasure and the Indian treasure stolen from the Spanish. Now the mystery. It was said that some of the treasure was part of the treasure from King Solomon's Temple, brought to the new world by the Knights Templar. Who knows. Anyway, the treasure is exposed and made public by Pope Pius the III who disclosed it in a edifice. This cost him his life and he was murdered after being Pope only for 79 days."

 

[gollum]

Yeah, "we know exactly" what those guys were doing 80 years ago, don't we? Well, at least you're certain about it. And the stories go on and on. And people still sleuth the Granite Peak area with high hopes. Most of the truly creative T or C scammers have passed on now, so I guess the new argonauts have to rely on books and the internet.

Here's another stirring version that I saved years ago from another, ahem, TH forum. It's a doozy - we just love this stuff. It's maybe not as off the wall as the William White "collection" of Caballo lore, but, hey, at least there's "an old Spanish treasure map" floating around in it.

"The glyph I talked about is in Palomas Gap closer to the west passage opening just above the road, if you can call that a road. It is a petro of a bird with a twig in its mouth, just like the one in the Utah glyph on the other forum. I believe that it directs the observer to a location higher up on the top of the mountains. Ive been up there and it's tough even when coming in from the Big Apple. Im relatively sure that the treasures in that whole area were located by the KGC and reburied or closed up. Most of them are in my records. The KGC had an entire cadre of researchers who went to Spain and Mexico to do research.

Have you been to the cave about 100 feet south of Bat Cave. Its down about 50 feet from the rock face. They call it Jimmys hole. It very interesting as it is very well and intentionally concealed many years ago. It basically is a volcanic blowout that is many millions of years old and it was covered very carefully. I think that at one time by the Indians. It looks like it use to go all the way into the mountain. But its blocked now by this vocanic ash, that sticks to everything. They say that when it is very quiet in there you can hear the clanging of a metal door or something. Ive heard it and its spooky.

Heres the start of the story and this is going to be long. Its called Seven is the Holy Number or it is also known as the 7 Lost Cities of Gold. I will post it separately.

A guy named Doc Noss found it and it eventually became his demise. I involves the Hembrillo Basin and Victorio Peak. I should also mention that Victorio Peak Treasure is one the treasures of the Four Kings. The four kings are Utah, Colorado, Arizona and New Mexico. Its comprised mostly of Emperor Maximilian's personal treasure that was moved there by the KGC plus the lost treasure of Padre LaRue which is actually the lost mine that is in Victorio Peak. There is also treasure that the Indians stole from the Spanish who tried to cross the Joranado, which was a treacherous passage in its day. The huge Spanish gold pack trains would try to hurry as fast as they could between Albuquerque and El Paso, the doorway to the north. They normally followed the Rio Grande but if you know the area between the River and the Caballo, aint no way.

The way the treasure was discovered is there were 4 KGC Codices brought out of Victorio Peak by Doc Noss aka Tom Starr in 1932-1933. Noss got one map from someone who stole it from J. Frank Dalton aka Jesse James, at Rush Springs, Okla. in 1932. There was a Negro named Myler who was charged with the chest of KGC maps that Dalton had in his possession. Some how this Myler was tortured and killed to get the maps. Joe Hunter had several of the maps but couldn't break the code. Anyway, Noss is befriended by a young Indian boy who has a old Spanish treasure map, drawn on a skin, that was found in a piano by an old Indian woman who raised him by the name of Mrs. Peron.

The Spanish map showed the location of a treasure buried at the base of Granite Peak in a solid rock Spanish vault. The boy befriended Noss who had a truck and they went off together to find the vault at Granite. The story goes that they found and opened the vault and Noss goes crazy and murders the boy and throws his body into the vault with the treasure. He gets some bars but has a hard time selling them because it was illegal to own gold in those days. Also in the vault was a map showing the location on the KGC depository in Victorio Peak, which Noss also locates. The treasure is so vast that Noss starts to go nuts about it tries to move some bars but every time he gets someone to help he winds up killing them too. Everyone goes into the hole. Must be crowded in there. Eventually Noss takes on a partner and they get in a fight and he kills Noss. But the story doesn't end here.

As I said some of the treasures at Victorio Peak was the old Padre LaRue lost mine Maximilians treasure and the Indian treasure stolen from the Spanish. Now the mystery. It was said that some of the treasure was part of the treasure from King Solomon's Temple, brought to the new world by the Knights Templar. Who knows. Anyway, the treasure is exposed and made public by Pope Pius the III who disclosed it in a edifice. This cost him his life and he was murdered after being Pope only for 79 days."

HAHAHA Its like my favorite quote:

The problem with quotes on the internet is that they are often not true!
Abraham Lincoln, 1867

Is that story from the old A.L.T. Forums? It all goes back to researching The Lost Dutchman Mine. The further you get away from the First Person telling of a story, the more BS and outright lies gets into the mix. Our problem here is that NOT ONE of all the people involved in this story is an upright citizen. Someone with indisputable credentials and a solid reputation among those that knew them. So, when we mix in thieves, liars, murderers, drunks (and those are just the government types), and real treasure, things all the way back to the First Person Tellings are flawed.

What do we know for certain?

1. Doc had access to both dore and refined bars.

2. Willie/Buster only had refined bars (long and about 40 pounds each)

3. A person named "PAT" found three bars in a cave in the Caballos. They were called Spanish Brass, but contained a small percentage of gold. Sounds a lot like that assay reprint that Letha Noss had. Lot of copper, some silver, and a small percentage of gold.

4. An unnamed person found several dore bars at about 65% gold in the Caballos.

There is more, but I am getting dragged down a bit of a different path. It needs its own thread. I will have it all together tonight. It is something that is different from what I have been thinking, but since I don't really care where the story leads to, I am always open to new ideas. In reading some quotes, I think I have come to a new direction.

Before I do that thread, I wonder if you might kindly tell me what you know about "The Guerrilla Gang". Who they were mostly (if anybody has that info).

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Is that story from the old A.L.T. Forums? It all goes back to researching The Lost Dutchman Mine. The further you get away from the First Person telling of a story, the more BS and outright lies gets into the mix. Our problem here is that NOT ONE of all the people involved in this story is an upright citizen. Someone with indisputable credentials and a solid reputation among those that knew them. So, when we mix in thieves, liars, murderers, drunks (and those are just the government types), and real treasure, things all the way back to the First Person Tellings are flawed.

What do we know for certain?

1. Doc had access to both dore and refined bars.

2. Willie/Buster only had refined bars (long and about 40 pounds each)

3. A person named "PAT" found three bars in a cave in the Caballos. They were called Spanish Brass, but contained a small percentage of gold. Sounds a lot like that assay reprint that Letha Noss had. Lot of copper, some silver, and a small percentage of gold.

4. An unnamed person found several dore bars at about 65% gold in the Caballos.

There is more, but I am getting dragged down a bit of a different path. It needs its own thread. I will have it all together tonight. It is something that is different from what I have been thinking, but since I don't really care where the story leads to, I am always open to new ideas. In reading some quotes, I think I have come to a new direction.

Before I do that thread, I wonder if you might kindly tell me what you know about "The Guerrilla Gang". Who they were mostly (if anybody has that info).

Mike

You are absolutely correct, Mike. It's my "degrees of separation" litmus test to "treasure legends".

The actual participant represents zero separation from the truth, ie the "treasure event". Of course, the protagonist is typically long gone, dead in the ground. The first person he reveals the event to is the first degree of separation from the truth. The revealing includes telling the story, writing the story, providing a map, showing photos and presenting artifacts. You can discount at least 50% of the truth at this stage, unless the first separation is a long time trusted individual - likely a family member - and then the percentage of error is probably less. If the first degree recipient is a stranger, no matter how "trusted", hold fast to the 50%!! The truth deviation results from either human error (faulty memory, lack of communication skills, etc.) or more likely, deception due to human nature.

For every additional degree of separation from the true event, you can add an additional 50% truth deviation. For example, if you possess information that is third degree - say a written interview with someone who got the information directly from the treasure discoverer - you can figure that the accuracy of what you read is (0.50)(0.50)(0.50) = about 12% of what you need to be certain of the story. Pretty soon, all you have is a campfire story - interesting, and maybe based on true events, but not the true skinny.

1. The only of Doc's bars that we have any evidence on (the Letha Noss assay) were mostly copper with a few ounces of gold in 40-pound ingots. All other stories are merely hearsay.
2. Newspaper accounts increase the truth deviation exponentially. We suspect Willie and Buster possessed gold in some form due to strong circumstantial evidence. That's all. My guess is that the bars were similar/same to the Letha assay bars Doc had.
3. Don't know who "Pat" is/was, but his bars sound the same as Doc, Willie and Buster's.
4. "Unnamed persons" only incite the gullible.

To me, the "Guerrilla Gang" references are one of the most intriguing parts of the Caballo legends. I don't know anything about them, but I'd sure like to. The implication is that they were part some sort of a conspiracy - secret, organized and informed.

I'm curious about the different path you're testing. Ultimately, as you say, we really only want the truth about this stuff, no matter what it is. It won't be easy to get.

 

[gollum]

You are absolutely correct, Mike. It's my "degrees of separation" litmus test to "treasure legends".

The actual participant represents zero separation from the truth, ie the "treasure event". Of course, the protagonist is typically long gone, dead in the ground. The first person he reveals the event to is the first degree of separation from the truth. The reveling includes telling the story, writing the story, providing a map, showing photos and presenting artifacts. You can discount at least 50% of the truth at this stage, unless the first separation is a long time trusted individual - likely a family member - and then the percentage of error is probably less. If the first degree recipient is a stranger, no matter how "trusted", hold fast to the 50%!! The truth deviation results from either human error (faulty memory, lack of communication skills, etc.) or more likely, deception due to human nature.

For every additional degree of separation from the true event, you can add an additional 50% truth deviation. For example, if you possess information that is third degree - say a written interview with someone who got the information directly from the treasure discoverer - you can figure that the accuracy of what you read is (0.50)(0.50)(0.50) = about 12% of what you need to be certain of the story. Pretty soon, all you have is a campfire story - interesting, and maybe based on true events, but not the true skinny.

1. The only of Doc's bars that we have any evidence on (the Letha Noss assay) were mostly copper with a few ounces of gold in 40-pound ingots. All other stories are merely hearsay.
2. Newspaper accounts increase the truth deviation exponentially. We suspect Willie and Buster possessed gold in some form due to strong circumstantial evidence. That's all. My guess is that the bars were similar/same to the Letha assay bars Doc had.
3. Don't know who "Pat" is/was, but his bars sound the same as Doc, Willie and Buster's.
4. "Unnamed persons" only incite the gullible.

To me, the "Guerrilla Gang" references are the most intriguing part of the Caballo legends. I don't know anything about them, but I'd sure like to. The implication is that they were part some sort of a conspiracy - secret, organized and informed.

I'm curious about the different path you're testing. Ultimately, as you say, we really only want the truth about this stuff, no matter what it is. It won't be easy to get.

To reply to your numbered statements;

1. NOPE! Colonel Holt is in a picture holding a sawed in half bar of REFINED GOLD that Doc had given him (or sold to him). He said it was pure because when he sold it, he got $35 per ounce for it.

View attachment 1205261

2. First part is absolutely true. Second part not so much. The bars from Willie's Cave were refined not dore.

3. "Pat's" bars are the same as whatever Hawley&Hawley Assayed. Letha only got copies in 1951 of the original 1939 Assays. Neither of the assays says "BARS". Both only refer to "SAMPLE" tested.

4. TRUE

The "Different Path" occurred to me when I was reading Willie's Account of his second kidnapping not long after reading a bunch of stuff about the Lorius and Heberer disappearances. Here is a (not word for word) quick retell for comparison:

1. WILLIE'S KIDNAPPING: Both he and Buster were going to go to Lordsburg, NM to sell about four bars. They put them in an old toolbox, and put that in their car. They barely made it to the highway before getting stopped by an impromptu road block. He and Buster were robbed of the four bars at gunpoint. They were then made to get into the car, where they were taken to El Paso. Willie also said that somewhere along the line, the car got into a wreck. When they were in El Paso, they made a break for it and ran away.

2. The Loriuses and Heberers came down from St Louis to buy gold. The last trace of them was from a gas station receipt in Socorro, NM. One of their American Express Travelers Checks was used at a tire shop in El Paso. The car was found in El Paso with some amount of damage from an accident. The person at the tire shop only remembered that the guy that used the travelers check had a bunch of tattoos. Sounds a lot like Reese Palmer (see pic):



(The first time I saw this pic I freaked out, because my grandfather had the EXACT same USN Swallow Tattoo in the EXACT same place)

This same heavily tattooed man left a string of the Lorius and Heberers travelers checks from El Paso to Dallas.

Sounds like Willie and Buster had something to do with it, then made up the kidnapping story to keep distance from the Palmer Brothers and themselves.

I like your "degrees of separation" idea, but you didn't say where Kevin Bacon enters into it? HAHAHA


Mike

 

[gollum]

...................one other thing I noticed that is very interesting; if you look at Buster Ward's Death Certificate, you will see that he died of Tuberculosis. Being from the Hot Springs Area, yopu would think he would have made use of the Hot Springs that are supposed to cure everything! HAHAHA Maybe he knew something we don't!

Mike

 

[mann]

Well according to the Gold House Books John Gordon was one of the guerrilla gang. I have never heard that before so I do not know how accurate that is. I do know Mr. Gordon and Milton Holden built the stone house at the base of Granite Peak where Mr. Gordon homesteaded the property that is still private property to this day. He also lived at that house prior to and for aWhile even after Willie found treasure moved out before the trucks were rented as I understand it.

 

[whiskeyrat]

I personally think that either the paper got the story wrong (likely they Willie/Buster said they had been searching the mountains for treasure since 1909, and they assumed they had that map then) OOOORRRRRRRR: Willie/Buster lied about having the map since 1909, which would throw off suspicion from Willie for murdering Jack Reynolds. The 1909 date also coincides with a little story about Doc getting his map from Geronimo while the Chief was in jail (even though Doc was only born in 1905).

Another little known story is about Doc getting kidnapped and tortured. In about 1938, Doc came limping home. The soles of both feet were badly burned. Ova had to smear lard on his feet and wrap them in flour sack strips. Said he was crippled for months. About that time, different members of the family were getting kidnapping threats. She also said that was when he changed from a happy guy into a mean alchoholic .......................... eeeeeeexcept for the fact that he was drunk waving his pistol around at Anne's Place, and getting arrested in 1934 (about four years before his kidnapping). The ONLY thing that is clearly evident in anything to do with Willie/Buster/Doc/San Andres/Caballos/Victorio Peak/Burbank Canyon/Granite Peak is that there is a large body of information that EVERY one of them kept from almost everybody else.

Another problem with your theory is that we now know exactly where their "Stash Cave" was in Hackberry Draw. The Stash Cave could not have been a very long way from the Treasure Cave.


Mike

Mike,
enjoy your posts.
so "we" know exactly where the stash cave is in Hackberry Draw
Dont suspose you would care to share GPS coordinates or even a hint on a topo map?
I will be in that area in 4 weeks, would love to check out this known stash cave.
thanks for any info or advice.
wr

 

[mann]

The "stash cave" as described in the gold house book is at 32-56-32.83 and 107-15-13.94. I have never heard that until that book as well so take it for what's it's worth. Good luck the coordinates are accurate just look at ground level can't miss it there is also a small cave above it as well. There is a picture in book one you should have no problem when you get to the fence just look at the bottom of the arroyo.

 

[whiskeyrat]

The "stash cave" as described in the gold house book is at 32-56-32.83 and 107-15-13.94. I have never heard that until that book as well so take it for what's it's worth. Good luck the coordinates are accurate just look at ground level can't miss it there is also a small cave above it as well. There is a picture in book one you should have no problem when you get to the fence just look at the bottom of the arroyo.

thanks mann i will check it out.
everyone else agree this is the spot
wr

 

[BIGSCOTT]

What source did the notion that the cave in Hackberry Draw, was Willie's stash cave?

 

[gollum]

What source did the notion that the cave in Hackberry Draw, was Willie's stash cave?

Larry/Willie

He talked about that cave which many locals call "The Smoke Hole", because treasure hunters used to burn tires inside it, hoping that the smoke would come out of a different place where more treasure was. Larry/Willie used that cave to tell the story about little skinny Willie Stromm. He and Buster caught Willie Stromm coming out of that cave with one of their bars. The story he tells is that they told Little Willie to start running. When he did, our Willie shot just beside his head, and nicked his ear. He said little Willie fainted, and they left. When they got back, little Willie must have woken up and left town, because they never saw him again after that (which says to me that they murdered him).

.....also, we believe it is really the stash cave because it doesn't match a description given talks about Willie climbing down into a smokestack shaped hole (straight down). The entrance to the stash cave is horizontal at ground level. It is a possibility that someone at some time misheard the description. Someone might have said "Climbing into the "smoke hole" (which is this cave), and it turned into a smokestack shaped hole.

Here is a pic of the cave from the book:



Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Mike looking at the picture. What direction is it looking in? The big picture.

 

[whiskeyrat]

Just read again the Willie & Buster story in the book "100 tons of gold".

According to book, Willie and Busters main treasure cave was on the east side of the Caballos and contained 1465 gold bars when found.

In 1932, Willie was captured and tortured for the 3rd time and gave up the location of this main cave.
He said the crooks found 1400 gold bars in the cave.

3 weeks later, the crooks (not willie) rented 10 trucks in TorC for $1000 and removed all the gold.
Willie was not in town at the time as he had fled town after giving up the location of the cave.

Willie returned in 1974 after the last of the crooks had died, went to the cave and said the gold was gone.

The cave near Granite peak discussed in this tread above, could have been his stash cave, but was a long ways (other side of the mountain) from the main treasure cave (according to book).

Maybe he just said it was empty in 1974 to prevent further looking and issues

At first thought, I was thinking moving 56 tons of gold would be nearly impossible even with 10 trucks. 1400 bars at 80 pounds (according to book) each is 56 tons.

Then I realized, as a kid i worked on a dairy farm with 2 other kids. Just the 3 of us.
Every day we loaded onto trailers, hauled to the barn and put up in the hay mow 1200 bales of hay that weighed 50 to 70 lbs each. 10 wagons each with 120 bales.We did it every day.
A similar task to moving 1400 gold bars weighing 80 lbs each.
So i guess it could be done with 10 men and 10 trucks.

more to ponder

wr