WW1 Brodie Helmet WW1/2 M1917 Helmet

[Keisermeister]

I Need to know if these helmets are authentic or not. The M1917 Seems "too good to be true" with the almost "new" looking paint.
Neither have the black rubber liner. I would like to know the maker of each, country of origin, value, and any other tid bits that would be nice to know for a new collector such as myself.
I turn it over to my Tnet friends from here, thanks for the help!

The first set of photos are of the Brodie.

 

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[Keisermeister]

These are photos are all of the M1917

 

[oldfireguy]

Keep in mind those helmets were used well into WW2 and believe it or not still used overseas by some military groups so I'm not surprised at the shape of them. I'm not a helmet collector, at least not Brodies but nothing is jumping out that says fake on either helmet. The second one is in pretty good shape and both look to maintain a lot of the original finish as far as the cork texture goes. It could be a military repaint also is why the finish looks so good.

I believe the 1st helmet is a British made helmet. I base that on the type of split rivet holding on the chin strap bracket but they were purchased by the U.S. until our production levels caught up. The second helmet has a round rivet holding the brackets and is U.S, made.

Prices on helmets are all over the place but I would be pretty comfortable saying $40 on up for either one. If they were unit marked or painted by a soldier then prices go way up.

If you watch ebay sometimes those liners pop up for sale and I believe reproduction liners are also being made.

A couple of nice helmets.

 

[Keisermeister]

I appreciate your time to reply, Ive done some research on these and they all seem to make sense, but now a days you never know.... somethin could look so real and it turns out it was made in china, its a shame. I just want enough evidence to show they are real.

I do know that soldiers would paint things on their helmets and i wish i had one like that, it would be the coolest thing.
the thing that keeps buggin me about the 1917 is that the paint is on the top only and not underneath. Im not a helmet expert by any means but am more familiar with some.

Im thinkin that the 1917 may very well be WW2 as we were waiting on the M1's to be developed and produced. you may be right about the 1917.

 

[Keisermeister]

And anyone wandering, i do not plan on "restoring" these, they will stay as is.

 

[oldfireguy]

the thing that keeps buggin me about the 1917 is that the paint is on the top only and not underneath.

It's not really uncommon to find that in helmets. I have several M1's that were repainted for Korea and they only did the outside. The other possibility is that someone bought a can of spray paint and repainted it. There are a few sources out there that sell spray paint for helmets. Even Walmart has an OD color that is very close to original WW2 color.

Helmets are tough and you are correct that there are a lot of fakes and rebuilds in the market.

 

[Retired Sarge]

The Z stamp on the second helmet makes it a US made helmet, the first helmet marked with a HV might be made by Vickers, although I have Vickers listed with only a V. Here's the list I have come up with so far in regards to this style helmet. I did this to give myself one list to reference, got tired of looking at over a 100 sites to get the information. I collect helmets and other military gear.

The first helmet is a WWI British helmet, the chin strap is routed under what would have been the liner and is attached to the rivit at the top. The american one looks the same so it can be assumed it is a WWI helmet. When we used these early in WWII the color was changed, and the chin strap was changed.

Known makers of the WWI British helmets:

FS = T. Firth & Sons Ltd
BS = W. Beardnore & Co Ltd
HS = Hadfield Ltd
V = Vickers Ltd

Known makers of the WWII British helmets:

BMB = Briggs Motor Bodies Ltd of Dagenham
F&L = Fisher & Ludlow Ltd of Birmingham
GSW DP & H = General Steel Wares Department of Pensions & Health
HELMETS LTD = Helmets Ltd of Weathhampstead
RO&Co = Rubery Owen Co Ltd of Leeds (Spelled as RO CO or RO&CO)
WD = William Dobson & Son of Birmingham
= Patent Pulp Manufacturing Co Ltd
JSS = Joseph Sankey & Sons

Known makers of the WWII British liners:

VERO II
TTC 2
FFC II
FFL II
V.M.C II
"N" LTD II
HELMETS Ltd I (Helmets Ltd of Weathhampstead)

Known makers of the WWII Canadian helmets:

CL/C = Canadian Motor Lamp Co
AG/C = Aluminium Goods Co
GSW = General Steel Wares

Known makers of the WWII Canadian liners:

Baskstay Standard Co (Also made chinstraps)
Viceroy Manufacturing Co = C/Arrow or VMC

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[Keisermeister]

Wow thank you both for your help, and this list.... i must say very impressive and very useful. i will copy and past and save.
I have however looked at lists online (but none of this magnitude) and there are "H" designations as well as the "V" and your correct as my research has said "Vicker's Ltd." the "H" i have read stands for i believe W Hutton & Sons. Could this be an uncommon helmet with the "H.V./318 mark?

and is there any safe way to preserve these helmets or any helmet from corrosion, and maybe save the leather from rot? of course i do not want to affect the originality of either. Thanks a million!

 

[Retired Sarge]

Most, if not all, die hard helmet collectors will tell you not to do anything to them. When you do try and clean the helmet, coat it, etc it then becomes a messed with helmet. Thus taking away the originality, and lowering the value of the helmet.

Keep them in-doors, in a dry, low humidity place to keep them from rusting. Mine are sitting on a shelf on display in the living room of all places. Wife and Kids did that for me, gotta love them!

I have a WWII American M-1 helmet, Viet-Nam era M-1 helmet issued to me in 1986, Bristish WWII helmet and another one of that style that I can't identify yet. My Kevlar helmet used during Desert Storm, another one I used during Bosnia, another one I used during Afghanistan, and my last Kevlar I used State-side for exercises. WWII German helmet, plus a collection of flight helmets, and couple of Communist helmets.

Here's the correct list, found it on the hard-drive, it has more information and corrected a few typos on my part. This list is an ever growing list. Feel free to use it, and add to it.

Known steel suppliers of the WWI British helmets:

FS = T. Firth & Sons Ltd Sept 1916 – 1918
BS = W. Beardmore & Co Ltd Jan. 1916 – 1919
HS = Hadfield Ltd Jan. 1916 – 1919
V = Vickers Ltd 1916 – 1917
MS = Miris Steel Co. Ltd 1916 – 1917
A = Edgar Allen and Co. Ltd 1916 – 1918
F = Thomas Firth and Sons 1916 – 1918
O = Samuel Osborne & Co Ltd. 1916 – 1918
B = Bury's & Co. 1916 – 1918

Known makers of the WWI British helmets:

D = James Dixon & Sons Dec. 1915
HW = Hutton & Sons Dec. 1915
HH = Harrison Bros. & Howson Ltd. Dec. 1915
M = J&J Maxfield & sons Dec. 1915
R = John Round & Sons 1916
V = W&E Viener Dec. 1915

Known makers of the WWII British helmets:

BMB = Briggs Motor Bodies Ltd of Dagenham
F&L = Fisher & Ludlow Ltd of Birmingham
GSW DP & H = General Steel Wares Department of Pensions & Health
HELMETS LTD = Helmets Ltd of Weathhampstead
RO&Co = Rubery Owen Co Ltd of Leeds (Spelled as RO CO or RO&CO)
WD = William Dobson & Son of Birmingham
= Patent Pulp Manufacturing Co Ltd
JSS = Joseph Sankey & Sons

Known makers of the WWII British liners:

VERO II
TTC 2
FFC II
FFL II
V.M.C II
"N" LTD II
HELMETS Ltd I (Helmets Ltd of Weathhampstead)

Known makers of the WWII Canadian helmets:

CL/C = Canadian Motor Lamp Co
AG/C = Aluminium Goods Co
GSW = General Steel Wares

Known makers of the WWII Canadian liners:

Baskstay Standard Co (Also made chinstraps)
Viceroy Manufacturing Co = C/Arrow or VMC

Known makers of WWI American helemts:

ZC
ZF
ZJ

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[Keisermeister]

Well i like "as is" on my military collectables so mine may end up in the livingroom too!
I have the M1917, the brodie, a German M38, and what i believe is a Vietnam era M1. And like you i also have my Kevlar courtesy of uncle sam.
Honestly I'm more of a firearms collector but recently Ive been buying helmets, they're very collectable and i love military items. I think Ive done good with these two. ill have to keep my eye out for them more often, I'm usually on the lookout for bayonets and firearms. I think Ive found a new interest, and i really appreciate your knowledge on this subject.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Well my knowledge came from hours upon hours of google, got tired of it so I started doing the list. The more I looked the more I learned, the more I learned the more dangerous I became.

I have shell casings, helmets, hats, piece of the Berlin Wall, piece of marble from Saddams palace, leaflets from Desert Storm, and Afghanistan, WWII German manuals, aircraft gauges etc etc. My collection seems to go in every direction.

Your German M38 if it's all original, can be worth a pretty penny. The following site has a German helmet section, along with a knife section, weapons section etc. Plus they have a section for US and British and equipment.

Main site address http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/index.php
German Helmet area "John Burnett Helmet Forum" http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[Keisermeister]

Knowledge is power.
I hit alot of gun shows and i love antique malls and shops so i find stuff frequently but am hesitant to buy some stuff, i just need to keep informing myself and my collection will grow.

So if the helmets are in fact authentic, what would you value these at? and the almost "new" green paint seems lagit on the M1917?

If all systems go on these helmets, then i will be one happy guy, and if not they are still cool all the same.

 

[Retired Sarge]

As for price I really don't know, the site I listed, they could give you more information on them, and give you a ball-park figure on them. I know just enough to get myself in trouble. I too visit those places and look at everything, and wish I could bring it all home with me.

I'll have to take some better pictures of my "Crap" and post them one day to show off my little collection. But here's the old pictures of the junk.

http://s124.photobucket.com/albums/p6/ffuries/Love Me Room/

Mike
USAF Retired.

 

[Keisermeister]

Yes thank you for the links to that website, I'm actually surfing it right now. I think i speak for many people when i say i would love to see your "crap" although i doubt its "crap".

Ill use the info you have shared with me and inform myself about the wonderful world of helmet collecting, and bring home more "crap" the wife can grimace over.

 

[oldfireguy]

Mike an impressive list. I'm going to grab it also for future reference.

Thanks for your service.

 

[Retired Sarge]

You're welcomed to it Oldfireguy, it's not 100%, just add to it and pass it on. By the way thanks for the kind words.

Mike
USAF Retired

 

[JaDub]

You're welcomed to it Oldfireguy, it's not 100%, just add to it and pass it on. By the way thanks for the kind words.

Mike
USAF Retired

Mike , I just purchased an M-1917 with the stampings of ZD with the small number 24 stamped below that. It is complete with headliner. Might you know what the `24` might indicate?

Thanks, Jeff

 

[Retired Sarge]

The ZD24 is the heat stamp code used to track the steel lots. Unlike British helmets where the codes tell you what company manufactured the shell, liner etc, US made "Brodie" helmets only carry lot numbers for the steel. With that said there is a growing trend that the alpha numeric portion "ZD" etc might actually point to which plant the helmet was made at, problem is there are no records associated with this, so it is hard to prove or disprove.

 

[Retired Sarge]

Updated list for you helmet guys out there! It keeps growing.

Known steel suppliers of the WWI British helmets:

FS = T. Firth & Sons Ltd Sept 1916 – 1918
BS = W. Beardmore & Co Ltd Jan. 1916 – 1919
HS = Hadfield Ltd Jan. 1916 – 1919
V = Vickers Ltd 1916 – 1917
MS = Miris Steel Co. Ltd 1916 – 1917
A = Edgar Allen and Co. Ltd 1916 – 1918
F = Thomas Firth and Sons 1916 – 1918
O = Samuel Osborne & Co Ltd. 1916 – 1918
B = Bury's & Co. 1916 – 1918

Known makers of the WWI British helmets:

D = James Dixon & Sons Dec. 1915
HW = Hutton & Sons Dec. 1915
HH = Harrison Bros. & Howson Ltd. Dec. 1915
M = J&J Maxfield & sons Dec. 1915
R = John Round & Sons 1916
V = W&E Viener Dec. 1915
MLS = ?
FKS = Possibly Thomas Firth & Son
M&S = Possibly Maxfield & Sons.

Known makers of the WWII British helmets:

BMB = Briggs Motor Bodies Ltd of Dagenham
F&L = Fisher & Ludlow Ltd of Birmingham
GSW DP & H = General Steel Wares Department of Pensions & Health
HELMETS LTD = Helmets Ltd of Weathhampstead
RO&Co = Rubery Owen Co Ltd of Leeds (Spelled as RO CO or RO&CO)
WD = William Dobson & Son of Birmingham
? = Patent Pulp Manufacturing Co Ltd
JSS = Joseph Sankey & Sons

Known makers of the WWII British liners:

VERO II
TTC 2
FFC II
FFL II
V.M.C II
"N" LTD II
HELMETS Ltd I (Helmets Ltd of Weathhampstead)

Known makers of the WWII Canadian helmets:

CL/C = Canadian Motor Lamp Co
AG/C = Aluminium Goods Co
GSW = General Steel Wares

Known makers of the WWII Canadian liners:

Baskstay Standard Co (Also made chinstraps)
Viceroy Manufacturing Co = C/Arrow or VMC

Known makers of WWI American helmets:

Edward G. Budd Manufacturing Co. 1,150,775 made
Sparks, Withington Co. 473,469 made
Crosby Co. 469,968 made
Bossett Corporation 116,735 made
Columbian Enameling & Stamping Co. 268,850 made
Worchester Pressed Steel Co 193,840 made
Benjamin Electric Co. 33,600 made

Known heat-stamp markings in WWI American helemts:

UC
YJ
ZA
ZB
ZC Columbian Enamaling and Stamping Company?
ZD
ZF
ZH
ZJ

 

[wantingtoknow]

Can anyone help me identify where this helmet came from and any possible history behind it?
As you can see in the pics this helmet appears to be hand painted and I'm assuming the E on the side stood for a medic? The number stamped inside is 680 followed by the letter C.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you