Jesse James Artifact Found in SE Oklahoma. I need all the information I can get.

[Sides]

UPDATE

Please. As much info as possible. The metal scratches bright silver. Possibly Lead. It is heavy for its size as well. Dimensions below.

4in x 2 3/8in

1in wide varying slightly

100mm x 60mm

width slants from 22mm to 27mm

 

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[GoDeep]

At first, I thought the same thing as well. After further inspection, it seems as if the E fell apart and slid to its current position.

Vehemently disagree, the E couldn't have fell apart and "slid", the spacing is wrong, part of the "E" is still visible, while the "I" is completely intact. They meant to spell "Jessie", a very common female name for the time:

Click to enlarge:
Letter Trace:

Chip out of the E:

 

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[Sides]

That right there would eliminate authenticity but does not mean it is not period.

It could definitely be nothing at all. My father who found this did so based on things pertaining to the outlaw, Jesse James and the KGC. It was found in an area that was said to be a known campground for the James Gang. With all of the factors I know of weighing in, I'm skeptical about most things I here lol. It is looking more and more like I'm just going to have to take a drone and metal detector to the location it was found and go from there. I appreciate the in depth answer though. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for!

 

[GoDeep]

It could definitely be nothing at all. My father who found this did so based on things pertaining to the outlaw, Jesse James and the KGC. It was found in an area that was said to be a known campground for the James Gang. With all of the factors I know of weighing in, I'm skeptical about most things I here lol. It is looking more and more like I'm just going to have to take a drone and metal detector to the location it was found and go from there. I appreciate the in depth answer though. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for!

What county was it found in, if it isn't some attempt at a forgery, I can likely trace it back to this couple. Ancestry.com and Find a grave lists too numerous Frank and Jessie James in the Tri-State area to narrow down. Some individual cemetery's alone have several James in them.

Also, do you have pictures of the other 3 sides, that would be helpful too as well as a picture of the 1872 date, I can't make out any date in the pics you've posted.

 

[Sides]

Vehemently disagree, the E couldn't have fell apart and "slid", the spacing is wrong, part of the "E" is still visible, while the "I" is completely intact. They meant to spell "Jessie", a very common female name for the time:

View attachment 1792619

I assure you, there is barely a ridge left of the E in the place of the I. There's an indention in the same area as your I. Look at the other angles. It slid or was purposely moved to the right. I appreciate the passion for truth as do I but this wasn't found just out somewhere random. I knew this would be brought to my attention multiple times and I'm honestly surprised it wasn't sooner. I can see how you would believe this 100% however, based on the circumstances of the find, I'm going to have to believe otherwise. But Thank you as well for your hard work to get to the bottom of it. That's the idea here.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I know you said it was heavy for its size...just something to add. Aluminum at that time (1872) was very valuable.
Could it be alum. with a block cast in the middle to save on materials?

I don’t think it’s a toy.

Edit: too crude for valuable materials.

 

[Jose The Goon]

Yes, SE Oklahoma, the Wichitas, Robbers Cave, etc., etc. The area is vast & been searched for years. I'm sure you know a bucket was found
engraved with the names of the gang who would share the loot. Did every member of the gang also get a slice of a big lead pie as proof for
their heirs that they had claim to a share of the goods? Who knows. It would be interesting to see how many pieces like your lead slice would fit
into a circle. 8? 10? 12? Intriguing piece you got there. Might be historic & authentic. Good luck in your search. Hopefully something will
click. It would be great if one of the heirs of the gang members have a similar piece in their possession. Cheers ! J.T.G.

 

[GoDeep]

This is just spit balling, but look at how the brass/copper inlay appears to be round wire that was laid in then flattened, but still raised above the surrounding surface. If you were to ink this, it'd make a good little homemade printing press, printing Christmas tree like designs. It could be that Mr Frank James gave a gift of this to his wife, Jessie James.

Do you have pics of the other 3 sides and of the date? Thanks in advance.

Also, just an update, but find a grave lists over 3,900 last name "James" buried in Oklahoma alone, 8,500 in nearby Texas and 3,200 in nearby Arkansas.

Click to enlarge:

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

There are several other photos available of each of the sides.
I’m sure the OP will post them up soon. If your really curious..some internet sleuthing will turn them up.

The fatter end has the numbers on it “18 12” (maybe 18 72). Definitely a space between the pairs of numbers.
In order to read it as a date of 1872, you would need to place the decorative side face down.

It appears to have been crudely poured in several uneven lifts, definitely not two pieces joined together.

Interesting piece. I was thinking perhaps a book end or decorative piece, but the embossed numbers would upset the stability. It’s also not a right angle triangle.

I would suggest uploading all the photos to the “What Is It” forum. Lots of eyes there each day.

 

[GoDeep]

There are several other photos available of each of the sides.
I’m sure the OP will post them up soon. If your really curious..some internet sleuthing will turn them up.

The fatter end has the numbers on it “18 12” (maybe 18 72). Definitely a space between the pairs of numbers.
In order to read it as a date of 1872, you would need to place the decorative side face down.

It appears to have been crudely poured in several uneven lifts, definitely not two pieces joined together.

Interesting piece. I was thinking perhaps a book end or decorative piece, but the embossed numbers would upset the stability. It’s also not a right angle triangle.

I would suggest uploading all the photos to the “What Is It” forum. Lots of eyes there each day.

Yeah I found it and you are right, the date isn't consistent with being an 1872, both due to wide spacing and the numbers themselves, so other then patina we have no way to date it without some sort of lab analysis. Same with the name, it's Jessie, not Jesse, which is another strike against it IMO as being a Jesse James piece. In my search of Ancestry.com and find a grave, both the names Frank James and Jessie James was such a common name, that without any other identifying information, there's no way to tie to the James Gang. I know the op wants to tie it to a probable Jesse James camp, but possible Jame's camp claims are as common as Clad at a playground...

Cool find none the less. Given the 119,000 female Jessie's during that time frame, i'm still going to stick with it was some sort of handmade gift by Frank James given to his wife, Jessie James, hence both of their names on it.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I still suggest Sides upload all the photos to the what is it forum. Someone may be able to offer some clues.
It may be a one off design..and one of those mysteries that never get solved. But more pictures will help avoid getting sidetracked.

Without having it in hand..from the photos it looks like it could also be 71 81
Two names and two pairs of numbers...

Given the slant on what would be the 2, I would expect to see a slant on the 7 as well, yet it’s vertical just like the 1.

One thing is certain - the numbers are significant and likely unique to this piece.

 

[ARC]

I knew the wheels would be turning...

Well I like the "collected lead bullets" theory.

Anyway... morning.

James Bro's 1872

 

[ARC]

Well...

IMO... This is MIGHT BE the "mold" used to make this mystery piece... which leads me to believe... there maybe more of these ... 7 others ? ? ?

OR... only one or two ?... or perhaps I am off.

I believe something like this cornbread iron was used to make this... and perhaps two compartments used then heated together.

PS... I do like the lead bullets being gathered by a bystander after some "shootout" or the likes by a "fan"... and making this.

Hence the "misspell" etc.

anyway...

My guess on the mold used... obviously any maker / version of this skillet... but none the less.

I would bet on it.... perhaps dimensions will clear it.

 

[Red-Coat]

I would be doubtful that the names represent a female 'Jessie' and a male 'Frank' as husband and wife from a family called 'James'. Wouldn't it be usual for the man's name to be put first?

The real Jesse was pretty literate, having been raised by a Baptist minister and college founder, as evidenced from several letters that he wrote to newspapers justifying his actions and the activities of the gang. It's pretty certain he wouldn't have got his own name wrong but, assuming this thing was made by someone else as a souvenir-type object, that level of literacy wasn't common. Misspellings of Jesse's name are not unknown and in fact even the small museum created in the house where he was shot got it wrong. This is from The Rise and Fall of Jesse James, edited by Robertus Love:

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

It doesn’t seem to make a very good souvenir.
Why so big? Wouldn’t a token or fob be a little more profitable?

I can’t think of any use as a toy.

Misspelled words, backwards letters, and repurposing one stamp for another were common.

If they did cast it in a cornbread skillet, they would have had to lined it with something in order to get the positive embossed letters.

Could it have been painted some color? Maybe gold colored like a wedge of gold?
I would look at it closely with a magnifying glass to see if there are remnants of paint stuck in the pores.

 

[Plumbata]

Fascinating item!

Judging from its appearance I don't think it's pure lead, but rather made from some sort of "white metal", "pot metal", or Babbitt bearing metal alloy. The spalled-out corroded divots in the surface make me think it's a harder alloy, maybe containing Zinc, as pure lead doesn't usually spall like that.

I can't think of any practical purpose for such an item aside from being used as a doorstop wedge. If made with a harder alloy or molten hodgepodge and used on an old-school pine or bare floor (softer surfaces) I could imagine the embossing holding up to the abuse much better than pure lead embossed doorstops would.

 

[IMAUDIGGER]

I had the same thought with the male name typically being listed first.

In the very early days you didn’t just go down to the store and buy gifts.
People were poor and many times located many miles from a store. They used a piece of lead pipe and some copper wire they found laying around. It sure seems to indicate hard times. The cornbread skillet idea also would be something someone would have available if they were looking for a ready made mold. I’m trying to think about what era someone would have copper wire available to them...my guess is telegraph wire? Maybe if it was made in a large town, there was power available earlier.

It was VERY common to make gifts with whatever you had on hand.
I’m leaning towards a unique gift and predict you will not find another like it.

 

[Gene Mean]

Could be a ceremonial piece of bride's pie. Apparently wedding pies were a thing. Super cool find by your father. I hope it turns out to be JJ related.

 

[GoDeep]

It undoubtedly spells "Jessie" though, not Jesse. Could it be a error, yes, but we can't declare it misspelled, or the letter "slid" over just to fit a more appealing narrative, absent other corroborating evidence. (such as other works from this artist)

Also, with the date not being verifiable and ambiguous at the very best, we can't date it to a specific date.

Grave yards in the Tri-state area of SE OK are filled with 10's of thousands of the Surname James and 1000's of "Jessie James", many of them female.

Maybe it was a father who made it and put his kid's name on it, Jessie and Frank. Other mundane scenarios are a 1000 times more likely given then Number of Frank James's and Jessie James (100,000's of them) vs only 1 single outlaw and his brother.

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[IMAUDIGGER]

Could be a ceremonial piece of bride's pie. Apparently wedding pies were a thing. Super cool find by your father. I hope it turns out to be JJ related.

Maybe Frank was 18 years old and Jessie was 12?

 

[CRUSADER]

.6% of the female pop. in 1872 were named "Jessie". With a US population in 1872 of 38,000,000, approx. half female, that's 114,000 females named Jessie, so we can't say it's a mis-spelling.

If one is looking for historical accuracy and to properly identify an artifact, one must certainly take into account the spelling. We can't dismiss it out of hand just to make it fit a narrative of being the outlaw Jesse James.

With the Surname James, being common, it is actually more likely this is a homemade artifact/gift made by or given to Frank James and his wife Jessie James, in the year 1872, honoring their union.

I agree.
I would x-ray, if I could, just to see.