What ya think?

[rock]

Ive been thinking on this for a while now. Why would there be so many tools like scrapers and knifes in one spot? I am leaning towards these type of spots to be a kill spot. Which means they killed a animal and then cleaned it for process and then carried it back to camp to eat. Well I have found spots with just tools and maybe 1 or 2 damaged points in the general area. My question is this.......do you think they just cleaned the animal and left their tools in the kill spot or do you believe they carried all of their tools with them back to camp? I am thinking they could make tools fast and just left them and made more later as needed. I am sure they had some favorites and hung onto them. Here are some I have found in the same spot. Each pic is a different spot. Id like to hear some theories on this as to what everyone has to say.

 

[GatorBoy]

rock my honest opinion is that most of the small material you find in a plowed field is not at all where it was hundreds or even thousands of years ago.
Century after century of season changes..floods..freezes.thaws...wind..rain..followed by year after year of plowing and more of the same natural cycles have changed the landscape drastically in most cases.
Things move not only vertically but horizontaly. Lighter items like flakes move alot and may even accumulate with other items with the same general density and surface area much like things do in the moving water of a stream or creek.. just at a slower pace.
I know I'm not holding any of those pieces and I mean no disrespect but alot of what you have in the photos appear to be only debitage.

 

[GatorBoy]

Just flakes here.

 

[kinchafoonee]

Ive been thinking on this for a while now. Why would there be so many tools like scrapers and knifes in one spot? I am leaning towards these type of spots to be a kill spot. Which means they killed a animal and then cleaned it for process and then carried it back to camp to eat. Well I have found spots with just tools and maybe 1 or 2 damaged points in the general area. My question is this.......do you think they just cleaned the animal and left their tools in the kill spot or do you believe they carried all of their tools with them back to camp? I am thinking they could make tools fast and just left them and made more later as needed. I am sure they had some favorites and hung onto them. Here are some I have found in the same spot. Each pic is a different spot. Id like to hear some theories on this as to what everyone has to say.

Agree with your theory that these pieces may be from kill sites or campsites. Also agree with Gatorboy's observations on how stuff gets scattered by the plow and is no longer where it was in ancient times.

 

[rock]

I know some are crude tools. This is the reason for the post as too the reason. I believe they were crude on purpose as to used only once and then disposed after they were done. They didnt have clothes like we do now days to hold all of their tools. The areas where I have found most of these were small like 10 ft square or smaller. I just find it strange that they are in little sections all piled together. And if the plow did it I would think they would of been scattered not gathered together. These arent creek finds, I have never found anything in creeks. They have secondary flaking on the edges so they arent debitage. Any other views on this? And if anyone else has found them like I have said post yours.

 

[GatorBoy]

I just want to clarify one thing then I'm done... what I tried to convey to you was that material..especially lighter material...when it winds up in loose surface soil through... the natural processes that I described moves and gathers together much the same way as in moving water.
If you could see it in time lapse you would get what I'm saying.
The biggest difference in the way soil and water move is that the molecules are closer together"more dence" in soil.. the effect that has is slowing it down.
Somebody 3,000 years ago did not put that stuff in a pile..right where you found it.

 

[rock]

Id like to hear other thoughts

 

[GatorBoy]

You will if they disagree..you know that.

 

[NC field hunter]

Gator, after years of plowing, fields still have hot spots. The plow doesn't move things as would be suspected.

 

[GatorBoy]

I'm not even talking much about the plow..that was only around for a short time and only moves the surface...mostly back and forth.
I'm talking about thousands of years of landscape changes and soil movement.
Much bigger picture.

 

[unclemac]

I have found a couple of spots in Nevada that are strewn with scrapers and flakes, debitage etc. All over the ground, no need to dig or scrape. Some spots more concentrated with "stuff" than others. Both areas are pretty undisturbed and I left them as I found them. One of the spots has sleeping spots deliniated under the 300+ year old junipers and other signs of casual occupation. Both spots have one thing in common...They are situated on an unremarkable "rise" that allows them unobstructed view of the landscape around them. The locals tell me that this was common for the Indians in the area, it gave them a place to sit and chat and work on lithics and watch the surrounding landscape for game or intruders. They took what they needed with them, left cores, flakes, preforms etc. behind for "later".

that's my two-bits. Hope that is what you wanted for this post.

 

[unclemac]

...but....if you are familiar with "buffalo jumps", then you know that they are butcher sites strewn with cutters and flakes, points, brokes etc. But also, they are strewn with bones that show butchering marks, are broken, have lithics embedded in them etc.

I think, as always, context is the key. I know for a fact that some sites are used again and again by the same people over time and others are accumulations over different epochs.

 

[quito]

WOW!!!

So, is someone trying to tell us that these artifacts we find are not in their original locations because the rocks have all moved over to somewhere else from the original Camps or Village sites?

Someone should tell the archy's so they can quit digging up these displaced relics.

 

[quito]

Well you did say they moved "virtually and horizontally", I mean vertically and horizontally now, and you did insinuate it could be a fair distance. That puts them out of context no matter where they are found in the strata.

So, hopefully you ARE an "archie" now, and can answer me intelligently. How far would you say these rocks have traveled from their original resting place in the fields? The ones in the big picture. We talking inches, feet, yards, 100's of yards, miles? And I am wondering, were there like little eddies (in slow motion of course) in the soil that put all those rocks in a pile that rock found?

 

[NC field hunter]

You ever seen those rocks that slide across the desert? Lol! I do know I find lots of wasted pieces on inclines. I figure erosion has moved these pieces a pretty good distance. I think this argument could go on forever, with no solid backing on either side. Landscape would be the determining factor, and every ground is unique. There, I at least tried to act as a catalyst.

 

[quito]

I can't teach everything in a forum
The answers your looking for are out there.
Many in collage courses. Geology ..paleontology ..archeology ..fluid dynamics.. try one or all I did.
Have a nice day.

I didn't ask for everything or even much for that matter, just 2 simple questions. You should have took some spelling while you were spending all that time at "collage".

 

[NC field hunter]

Yeah, things move alright, no doubt about it NC! But, gb is trying to get us to believe WAY beyond THAT. Soil currents sorting materials by size and densities and piling up artifacts

Do you think gb is an "Archie" now NC ?

I think I'm going to pass on that question. Lol! Two is company, three is a crowd. I'm out!!

 

[unclemac]

let's get back on track

 

[quito]

let's get back on track

Amen! I wish someone would give up some answers for his theories, or I am afraid this thread will just die.

 

[bmartin0693]

Lol! Nice topic. I concur with Rock's theory. There can be "hotspots." When I find a hotspot there can be many different materials deposited also. The materials you have in each picture look similar. They look well used like they were leftover after a kill. I have searched rivers and creeks, digging along the banks and I have encountered spots where artifacts can acculumate. I have found leftovers and scrapers along an old road to my deerstand. There are thousands of thumbnail pieces of quartz covering the trail on one spot and I found a few quartz scrapers. I believe that was a knapping site, b/c thats where I found some more materials in that vicinity. However, geological processes catalyzes the changes that occur to artifacts and they can spread or cluster. In this general sense, your artifacts probably didn't move significantly. IMO, Thanks!