$1,000,000 for anyone who can dowse.

[ClonedSIM]

The statement you were speaking of I had interpreted as this one. The statement itself was not incorrect, this one is.

"Then he tells me that he can only perform with like-minded individuals and friends around."

I do believe that I never said this. Therefore, if it is true that I did not state that, then I am justified in saying that you lied about me.

"I stand by my Statement.

Any Accusations of Lying Get deleted, along with the Complete Post."

And I accept your appologies, but in the future I ask that you check such claims before stating them so certaintly.

I give up, Sandy. You can dowse whenever you want, around whomever you want, and you live over a Viking ship.
You can use a board with words and holes in it to dowse the age of coins and to tell you the number of humans that are buried with your ship.
None of this sounds unreasonable at all and you are easily the most level-headed person on this forum.
Of course, you think I'm a complete liar, so believe what parts of this you'd like and ignore the rest, just like you do with everything else.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

, they're a dying breed and will end up extinct at some point in the future.
***************
Wanna bet? I bet my money to the contary, in the future they will be vindicated when science finally starts to mature.

Tropical Tramp

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey af1733....I hope you know that Sandsted, Dowser501 and myself all Dowse in different ways. So the methods that one of us uses may not be work for the other. There is no right or wrong way to dowse as long as it works for you. I know this confuses you but guess what...I am sticking to my story as thats the way things have been for ages and will always be a fact...Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

Oh, and don't even try to dig up that Viking ship. You don't need to provide proof of anything, least of all yourself. I should know, I just found out that Atlantis is buried in my backyard. They all flew with jet-packs and talked through their feet. My magical dowsing index card told me.

 

[Sandsted]

"Of course, you think I'm a complete liar, so believe what parts of this you'd like and ignore the rest, just like you do with everything else."

Now Af, why do you respond so defensively and with the appearence of such anger. I never stated that I think you are a complete liar.

And making mocking representations of dowsing does not better yourself neither does it benefit anyone. It doesn't add do your argument and the only thing you have accomplished by these two posts is degraded yourself to insulting others.

 

[ClonedSIM]

And making mocking representations of dowsing does not better yourself neither does it benefit anyone. It doesn't add do your argument and the only thing you have accomplished by these two posts is degraded yourself to insulting others.

Now why do you think I'm insulting anyone? You have a Viking ship you won't dig up, and I have a lost city that I won't dig up. Neither of us can be wrong or right. And since dowsing can't be tested, no one ever can prove otherwise.
I've discovered the true beauty of dowsing!!!

 

[Captain Trips]

These people can not give me the odds of radom chance. Why...Because it would prove that the tests are a scam....I know what my odds are of guessing the location in a test like Carls. Why...I have performed this test many times. If you tell me what the real odds are I will only ask one question. If you are trying to prove that Dowsing is no better than chance guessing ..Why are you requiring the dowser to have results that are 4 times higher than random chance?Art

You ask for "odds of random chance" without taking into account one vital fact. The odds of random chance vary depending on the nature of the test.

Here you are, going back to the example I like to use, that of the "one gold item in one of ten paper cups" random chance would give odds of 1 to 9. (A probability of .1.) Put into practical terms, this means that, if you ran this test ten times, then odds are you would have one successful hit by random chance. There you go -- clearly stated "odds of random chance."
Now, if you were to locate the gold coin in 7 out of 10 attempts, and each attempt were a "one hidden in one of ten cups" setup, then you would have clearly demonstrated an ability to dowse at a level so far above random chance that you would clearly have won the challenge. You would certainly have beaten "the odds" (of random chance, that is!)
Of course, some other testing arrangement would have different "odds of random chance." The actual odds depend on the specific "test variables" involved. The reason that the "set me lose in an open field" suggestion fails is that there is no control over the "test variables" and therefore odds can not be clearly calculated. This is why so many people would like to see the "paper cup" type of attempt -- it's a test with clearly defined parameters.

Why is this so hard for so many to understand?

 

[xupz]

, they're a dying breed and will end up extinct at some point in the future.
***************
Wanna bet? I bet my money to the contary, in the future they will be vindicated when science finally starts to mature.

Tropical Tramp

Why is it then you don't see dowsers themselves running experimental designs to verify their own claims to others?

 

[ClonedSIM]

There is no right or wrong way to dowse as long as it works for you. I know this confuses you but guess what...I am sticking to my story as thats the way things have been for ages and will always be a fact...Art

Art thinks he's confusing me!!
This coming from the man that can't grasp probability!

If there is no right or wrong way to dowse as long as it works for you, then how come you have to practice? You make it sound like as long as you want to dowse, it will happen no matter how you do it. This pile just gets deeper and deeper.

 

[xupz]

Then you must work with a lot of Engineers...dealing with manufacturing companies, I mean. In my own experience, they are sometimes the hardest ones to convince of changes that need to be made ... in anything ... much less streamlining their processes and work flows. How do you manage to work around opposition to your ideas? Also, what do you mean by middleman type companies.....like marketing or distribution?

Engineers are one the worst other than business majors (except Industrial Engineers which you don't find often in smaller companies). The problem with engineers is that they can design the work and have "feeling" on how it performs which is often inaccruate. It's not their fault, it's just that design & real world are two different things. I don't find it hard to convince them once I slap down my work in front of them for them to look over. Most of the time they don't understand anyway, or just bits and pieces, and that pretty much ends that problem as they can't debate what is in their face. I haven't had to deal with very many though, mostly upper-management business types in which I have to dumb everything down to a point where they can understand. This is a challenge in itself (although they aren't as bad as Art ). It all comes down to how much they'll save on costs, increases in productivity, time, etc. Also I use quite a bit of real-time simulation in my work for instability analysis in processes, it can be as simple as figuring out how many temp employees a department should hire to handle a large influx of work certain times of the year, or embedding DOE in the system to see how the current process reacts to changes, systems going down, queues, etc and plan ahead for them so WHEN they occur, not if, they are expected and handled properly. I also do quite a bit of Operations Research when it's called for. Middlemen companies are companies that don't produce anything, they simply relay. Retail sales is an example. Stores buy in bulk from manufacturers / distributers / dealers etc, tack on a mark-up % and resale the item. We do pretty much the same thing on the procurement side. Another example would be a certain large student loan company I did work for where they pay lendor claims at less than 100%, keep the difference as profit, try to get the borrower to pay (with a fat penalty % tacked on) and claim the 100% with the gov't who in the end guarentees all student loans now. These do provide a service between two or more parties in which they just take a cut which I call the white meat.

Once you have the business model and methodology laid out, the problems most of these companies have are very similar. In a couple years I'll have quite a lovely template library I can also sell. All it takes is some hard work and patience to get uber rich

 

[Korban]

Well i silently follow this thread mainly to see each sides points and ideas, lately it seems to have turned into a pissing contest. We seem to be arguing about odds? My lord, find some common ground people, and go from there. If there is no common ground then nothing can be proven or solved.

 

[Sandsted]

"...nothing can be proven or solved."

 

[aarthrj3811]

Why is it then you don't see dowsers themselves running experimental designs to verify their own claims to others?

Check this thread http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,28701.0.html I have now done this test around 40 times for friends and family. For the people that count.

If there is no right or wrong way to dowse as long as it works for you, then how come you have to practice? You make it sound like as long as you want to dowse, it will happen no matter how you do it. This pile just gets deeper and deeper.

I practice a lot. I try new ideas some of them from others on T-Net. Right now I am working with Dowser 501's Look Down Rod. When you use the methods that I do the Ideomotor Response keeps trying to stick its ugly nose in and I have to keep slapping the snort out of it to keep it in it's place...Art

 

[aarthrj3811]

Well i silently follow this thread mainly to see each sides points and ideas, lately it seems to have turned into a pissing contest. We seem to be arguing about odds? My lord, find some common ground people, and go from there. If there is no common ground then nothing can be proven or solved.

I feel the same way but in the last few weeks I have gain some very valuable information that will be a big help down the line. Once in the while I get to post some information about Dowsing that I hope will help some of the silent people who we know are reading these treads. Jump right in as it always helps to get a new point of veiw....Art

 

[ClonedSIM]

Well i silently follow this thread mainly to see each sides points and ideas, lately it seems to have turned into a pissing contest. We seem to be arguing about odds? My lord, find some common ground people, and go from there. If there is no common ground then nothing can be proven or solved.

If you look at the title of the thread as it relates to the the challenge, and what must be accomplished in the challenge, then it makes a little sense.
The biggest problem is that there is no common ground. No dowsers want to take the challenge, and no LLAD users want to take the challenge, but they all seem to have a negative opinion about it nonetheless. Talk about closed minds...

 

[Sandsted]

"Talk about closed minds..."

Such humor!

 

[ClonedSIM]

"Talk about closed minds..."

Such humor!

Well, am I not right? You, Dell, Art, musstag, all have negative opinions on the Randi challenge, yet none of you has attempted it in it's current incarnation. I know Dell says he was tested by him at one point, but Dell says it was unknowingly on his part, so that hardly counts.
So it won't work, but you haven't tried it.
I say dowsing won't work, but I've at least attempted it, with no results.
Who has the closed mind?

 

[aarthrj3811]

If you look at the title of the thread as it relates to the the challenge, and what must be accomplished in the challenge, then it makes a little sense.
The biggest problem is that there is no common ground. No dowsers want to take the challenge, and no LLAD users want to take the challenge, but they all seem to have a negative opinion about it nonetheless. Talk about closed minds...

You may want to read some of the links that JudyH has posted. Read the words of the great Randi as he talks about his Challenge....Every thing you have stated about his Challenge is debunked in his own words. They even tell us what will happen if someone should bet the tests.

Keep begging ...You may find a sucker....Art

 

[Sandsted]

"Well, am I not right? You, Dell, Art, musstag, all have negative opinions on the Randi challenge, yet none of you has attempted it in it's current incarnation. I know Dell says he was tested by him at one point, but Dell says it was unknowingly on his part, so that hardly counts.
So it won't work, but you haven't tried it.
I say dowsing won't work, but I've at least attempted it, with no results.
Who has the closed mind?"

AHEM! This is why I have submitted to the penny challenge, or at least agreed to. You can't say that I haven't tried, I am. But for Randi's challenge, that would take a lot of expense on my part. I can't at the moment do that. Dowsing can't be tested under those conditions. That might sound closed minded but I know my abilities.

You won't dowse with an open mind, that's the flaw. I don't believe you will ever overcome this, you're not strong enough to overcome your opinions.

Believe me, I was as you a skeptic of dowsing. Skeptic in the sense that I questioned its validity. I didn't strongly believe that it was all a joke, this wouldn't be fair to the art, for I had not studied it. I was as you, skeptical of dowsing. The difference is I had motivation to give it the chance it deserved. I was pushed into it by my aunt. Her husband had been a very accomplished dowser. For years he used this, our own wells were dowsed by him.

For her and for him I tried dowsing with sincere respect for it and this is why it worked for me. I for a moment suspended disbelief. I tried and because of this found the great art of dowsing and believe me when I tell you the benefits that I have gained from it have been well worth all the practice, work and study. I've come to better know my own family, my community. The knowledge that I have attained from it I could gain no where else. The people I've met, the things that I've found. All this could have never been if my aunt hadn't demanded that I attempt at dowsing.

I tried Af, I attempted. That's the difference between being able to dowse and not. Don't forget that.

 

[Sandsted]

SWR I tried to use the quote button! I attempted! It didn't work for me so I dismissed it as delusion and self-deception on your part!


Seriously I tried once...and it didn't work and I don't remember why but I've just decided to quote the old fashion way.