1786 vermont real or fake

[bula]

I went out yeaterday & found this coin it is a 1786 vermont. I have never seen one of these so I would like some input on how to tell if it is real. I have seen some coins that are copy but they alway's have copy stamped into them.

 

[HEAVYMETALNUT]

looks real to me.it looks like a 1786 Vermontensium issue to me.nice one!

 

[Iron Patch]

I didn't rotate the pics to match and took a quick look, but think it's...

1786 VERMONT COPPER -
RYDER 8

PCGS No: 545

Rarity: Very Scarce

 

[Iron Patch]

As for it being real what type of site was it found? The only thing that gets my attention right away is what looks like blue corrosion, but that could result from a few different things.

The first thing to do would be to weigh it and go from there.

These are a little tougher because the originals are poorly done. (and I have no idea what's out there for counterfeits or reproductions)

If it's fake it's a good one, at least better than the typical junk that you know at first glance.

 

[bula]

OK in my powder scale which may be off a little it is 172 grains & is aprox 28.5 mm across.

 

[Iron Patch]

OK in my powder scale which may be off a little it is 172 grains & is aprox 28.5 mm across.

Are you sure? If it is a Ryder 8, I found a sale for one at 106.8 grains/6.92 grams. 172 grains is over 11 grams. That's a very heavy copper, and I don't see any over 127 grains.

 

[Don in SJ]

IP is correct on the Ryder 8 variety, but also agree, the weight cannot be that high, hopefully you misread your weight, or typed it wrong, since it does appear to be a legit one. What is the story behind finding it, type of site, other finds, etc?

Don

 

[Don in SJ]

The Vermont General Assembly authorized the coinage of the coppers on October 27th, 1785 to be done at the weight of 111 grains.
Reference: Colonial Newsletter 002 Jan 1961.

Don

 

[bula]

That is what is weighs & in researching the coin they all had to weigh at least 1/3rd of a troy ounce which would make a minimun of 160 grains. as for the location it is a dug coin and would have had to have been transported here as there are no areas around here that are that old. I have found some old English coins in this area & as well they would have had to been brought here by settlers. My oldest find has been the back of a pocket watch dating to 1791.

 

[Don in SJ]

That is what is weighs & in researching the coin they all had to weigh at least 1/3rd of a troy ounce which would make a minimun of 160 grains. as for the location it is a dug coin and would have had to have been transported here as there are no areas around here that are that old. I have found some old English coins in this area & as well they would have had to been brought here by settlers. My oldest find has been the back of a pocket watch dating to 1791.

That weight was the original proposal in June 1785 but was modified in Oct 1785 after they realized that would be too much copper and not competitive with the other State coinage and British coinage in use at the time. Also, with the wear on the coin, the weight should be even less than authorized.

I attached the article from the CNL 002 Jan 1961

Don

 

[bula]

Now I am wondering if I should try cleaning it to see if there are any clues as to its authenticity or just leave it alone. Does anyone out there know how wide it should be?

 

[Don in SJ]

Now I am wondering if I should try cleaning it to see if there are any clues as to its authenticity or just leave it alone. Does anyone out there know how wide it should be?

I have two Vermonts I found, one is 26.8mm and the other 27.0mm one weighs 91.7 grains and the other 115.2 grains. On the Notre Dame website there is a Ryder 7 (same reverse as Ryder 8 ) and it weighs 126.4 grains and is 27.2mm in diameter and a second one that weighs 117.1 grains and is 27.0mm in diameter.

Still think yours is a legit one, but still researching.

Don

 

[nova]

Leave it alone bula do not clean any further. Just my experience

 

[bula]

If I have the coin laying down with the date at 6 o'clock & turn it over the dot between quarta & decima is in the 6 o clock position & if I flip it sideways the e in stella is in the 6 o clock. Oh and by the way thanks for all of the replies & help.

 

[Don in SJ]

If I have the coin laying down with the date at 6 o'clock & turn it over the dot between quarta & decima is in the 6 o clock position & if I flip it sideways the e in stella is in the 6 o clock. Oh and by the way thanks for all of the replies & help.

OK, after rechecking, the Ryder 7 & 8 were the first varieties with coin turn and that appears to be what yours is, so again, nothing there to say it is not legit, just have to find out if that weight and diameter can be, still looking.

Don

 

[Don in SJ]

By the way, finding a State copper west of the Mississippi is highly unusual, I have been doing circulation studies on NJ coppers for over 5 years now and none of them are from the western part of the states and the only state coppers I remember being found further west, all ended up being copies or other types of reproductions(usually Mass Cents). So your find does generate some interest, probably a settler who somehow kept a few of the old coppers in his belongings before traveling west.

Now with that said, I just checked a auction catalog and 4 Vermont Ryder 8s are listed and all are in the normal weight range: 107.8, 114.6, 112.3 and 109.2 grains. For now I do not know what else to say, except weigh a good modern coin with a known weight in redbook and see if your scale is correct.


Don

 

[DANGLANGLEY]

That's a very nice coin and a very interesting place for it to be found. I hope it does turn out to be authentic. Also, the knowledge and expertise on this site covering so many topics never ceases to amaze me.

DANGLANGLEY

 

[West Jersey Detecting]

A great find for any part of the US...A SUPERB find in your region!

Congrats!

 

[hogge]

As for the Ryder 7 in my avatar........120.4 grains and 27.3 mm. Great detail on yours also, but the weight is way off. With such great looking detail left, I think the heated peroxide should be used. You see how well mine came out. As Don said, highly unusual to be found so far west, but NOT to say it isn't real. ALL MY COPPERS GO INTO PEROXIDE!! The only ones I don't do, are the so far pitted ones that I feel are not going to get any better, but worse! Also found a Ryder 6 at the same spot, that I did sell. I think better pics, after cleaning should tell the tale. JMO

 

[Broken knee]

Nice coin, It is amazing to have been found in Utah.
HH Broken Knee