1787 Massachusetts Large Cent Copper - New Pictures Cleaned In Peroxide

[bookfisher]

Got this 1787 Massachusetts One Cent Copper from the Old Woods today. I'm undecided if I should try to clean it or leave it as is. And if do clean it, should I just soak it for an hour in olive oil or boil it in hydrogen peroxide. Also found three 19th century flat buttons and a 1908 Indian Head penny.

After consulting with an expert on colonial coins last night, that cleaning the coin in peroxide would not really hurt the coin and that is value is under $100.00, I decided to give the peroxide a try. Final results are mixed - some details were brought out and some were taken away since the dirt that was highlighting some is areas is gone.
Thanks to everybody that responded

 

[Ron B]

Re: 1787 Massachusetts Large Cent Copper

Hello Book!
I'm with PiggMan on this one; leave it be. I would suggest placing the coin in a coin holder or something however. The dirtiness, IMO only adds to the HISTORY mystique!

Great-GREAT FIND!
GRB

 

[The Seeker]

Re: 1787 Massachusetts Large Cent Copper

Hey Book.............I think she looks beautiful , the way it is!!!

Great Coin ! WTG

John

 

[Colonial Zoyboy]

Re: 1787 Massachusetts Large Cent Copper

Book, that is one of the nicest coppers that I've ever seen on T-Net!

Keep on swinging in those historic woods, bud!

 

[Jill in Ohio]

Re: 1787 Massachusetts Large Cent Copper

Hey,

Wow, great find! Sorry, but i'm NO help at all, even if I did have an idea on how to clean it, I wouldnt take my own advice! I mean, this is coming from the person who put a red sock in with the whites! Good luck though!
Keep up the sweet work!

Jill

 

[texan connection]

Re: 1787 Massachusetts Large Cent Copper

Red book shows price range from $100.00 g grade, to $6000.00 unc. Funny if the arrows were in the other Talon it would be $10,000.00 to $300,000.00 . Very nice coin If you do clean it I'd love to see it agien.

 

[silverfinder]

Bookfinder and everyone else reading this - listen, and learn from another's mistake...a few weeks ago, at a site that's still yielding old coins, I found my second of two colonial coppers . Detail was faint and obscure and merely rinsing the old copper under the tap was not helpful. Knowing that the coin could be a rare variety (the obverse showed a partial, faint outline of a Henry Voigt-type liberty head, and the reverse showed the barely discernible vestige of a wreath), I decided to follow the procedure described by a New Jersey Treasurenet member who had great success cleaning several large cents he had found and posted on this forum. This entailed soaking the coin in hot peroxide. Well, this peroxide bath, unfortunately, destroyed all of the coin's faint detail, leaving nothing but a featureless copper disc. The worst part is that after the coin was irreparably damaged, I got hold of a Redbook and tried to identify the coin. The wreath on the reverse (as I remember it) most closely resembled the wreath on the back of a Birch cent minted in 1792. These are exceedingly rare, worth thousands of dollars even in low grade condition; mine, being extremely corroded, was probably worth hundreds. Damn. So don't clean any coin yourself if you think it may have significant value. Ever. Leave the job to experts. I've given you fair warning.

 

[dgaughan]

I've had similiar results with the peroxide bath some good and some bad i think it depends on the soil the coin was in to some degree. any way congrats on a fantastic find

 

[Don in SJ]

Bookfinder and everyone else reading this - listen, and learn from another's mistake...a few weeks ago, at a site that's still yielding old coins, I found my second of two colonial coppers . Detail was faint and obscure and merely rinsing the old copper under the tap was not helpful. Knowing that the coin could be a rare variety (the obverse showed a partial, faint outline of a Henry Voigt-type liberty head, and the reverse showed the barely discernible vestige of a wreath), I decided to follow the procedure described by a New Jersey Treasurenet member who had great success cleaning several large cents he had found and posted on this forum. This entailed soaking the coin in hot peroxide. Well, this peroxide bath, unfortunately, destroyed all of the coin's faint detail, leaving nothing but a featureless copper disc. The worst part is that after the coin was irreparably damaged, I got hold of a Redbook and tried to identify the coin. The wreath on the reverse (as I remember it) most closely resembled the wreath on the back of a Birch cent minted in 1792. These are exceedingly rare, worth thousands of dollars even in low grade condition; mine, being extremely corroded, was probably worth hundreds. Damn. So don't clean any coin yourself if you think it may have significant value. Ever. Leave the job to experts. I've given you fair warning.

I will say this one more time, practice on a button or some other copper coin first. Peroxide does not ruin the coin, if the detail comes off it is because the coin was already corroded/damaged to where only the dirt was holding the detail and removing the dirt removes the impression. It would eventually disintegrate anyway. If a copper has good metal underneath, peroxide is a very fast, safe cleaning method. If there is any porosity and you use Olive oil it will be absorbed into the coin and forever continually slowly leach out over the years, plus it is slightly acidic.
Not cleaning, does not allow to attribute a coin to determine what it is and it is expensive to send a coin away and get graded, yet alone conserved! (Most ground found coppers are environmentally damaged even if you think not)
Also, Colonial coins are only graded by a few companies and not always correctly and most true colonial collectors do not like their coins Slabbed.

Don

 

[Merf]

That is a great find BF---Congrats.

 

[bookfisher]

Bookfinder and everyone else reading this - listen, and learn from another's mistake...a few weeks ago, at a site that's still yielding old coins, I found my second of two colonial coppers . Detail was faint and obscure and merely rinsing the old copper under the tap was not helpful. Knowing that the coin could be a rare variety (the obverse showed a partial, faint outline of a Henry Voigt-type liberty head, and the reverse showed the barely discernible vestige of a wreath), I decided to follow the procedure described by a New Jersey Treasurenet member who had great success cleaning several large cents he had found and posted on this forum. This entailed soaking the coin in hot peroxide. Well, this peroxide bath, unfortunately, destroyed all of the coin's faint detail, leaving nothing but a featureless copper disc. The worst part is that after the coin was irreparably damaged, I got hold of a Redbook and tried to identify the coin. The wreath on the reverse (as I remember it) most closely resembled the wreath on the back of a Birch cent minted in 1792. These are exceedingly rare, worth thousands of dollars even in low grade condition; mine, being extremely corroded, was probably worth hundreds. Damn. So don't clean any coin yourself if you think it may have significant value. Ever. Leave the job to experts. I've given you fair warning.

I will say this one more time, practice on a button or some other copper coin first. Peroxide does not ruin the coin, if the detail comes off it is because the coin was already corroded/damaged to where only the dirt was holding the detail and removing the dirt removes the impression. It would eventually disintegrate anyway. If a copper has good metal underneath, peroxide is a very fast, safe cleaning method. If there is any porosity and you use Olive oil it will be absorbed into the coin and forever continually slowly leach out over the years, plus it is slightly acidic.
Not cleaning, does not allow to attribute a coin to determine what it is and it is expensive to send a coin away and get graded, yet alone conserved! (Most ground found coppers are environmentally damaged even if you think not)
Also, Colonial coins are only graded by a few companies and not always correctly and most true colonial collectors do not like their coins Slabbed.

Don

Hi Don,

Thanks for your help and advice on this coin. I really appreciate it.

Bill

 

[romeo-1]

Give it another soak or two...it will be immaculate!

 

[Jack(IN)]

Nice find and not sure if I would have done anything with it, it just looks that good. If you do give it a "bath" again sure hope to see pics of that beauty!! Congrats!!

 

[silverfinder]

Don in SJ says: " Peroxide does not ruin the coin, if the detail comes off it is because the coin was already corroded/damaged to where only the dirt was holding the detail and removing the dirt removes the impression. It would eventually disintegrate anyway. If a copper has good metal underneath, peroxide is a very fast, safe cleaning method. "
Understood. The problem here is that there is no way of knowing with any certainty whether there is "good metal underneath." If there is, then fine. If not, you'll wind up with a blank disc. So you're taking a calcuated risk cleaning fragile, possibly valuable coins. I'd rather do nothing, just put the coin away and hope that perhaps in the future new methods will be found to clean such coins safely. If not, at least you've not damaged the coin further, and what detail there may still be will not be obliterated permanently.
Anyway, that's how I see it.

 

[bookfisher]

Don in SJ says: " Peroxide does not ruin the coin, if the detail comes off it is because the coin was already corroded/damaged to where only the dirt was holding the detail and removing the dirt removes the impression. It would eventually disintegrate anyway. If a copper has good metal underneath, peroxide is a very fast, safe cleaning method. "
Understood. The problem here is that there is no way of knowing with any certainty whether there is "good metal underneath." If there is, then fine. If not, you'll wind up with a blank disc. So you're taking a calcuated risk cleaning fragile, possibly valuable coins. I'd rather do nothing, just put the coin away and hope that perhaps in the future new methods will be found to clean such coins safely. If not, at least you've not damaged the coin further, and what detail there may still be will not be obliterated permanently.
Anyway, that's how I see it.

Your right silverfish, but the key word here is "valuable". I would not (and I'm sure Don would not) clean a valuable coin.

 

[RUDY2003]

Great copper BF!
Got some nice detail....

 

[Kas]

Everything I've read about the grading services says that they don't grade "Dug" coins.

The only way to get it graded would be to clean it.

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

I will say this one more time, practice on a button or some other copper coin first. Peroxide does not ruin the coin, if the detail comes off it is because the coin was already corroded/damaged to where only the dirt was holding the detail
Don

I second that. Soaking in olive oil will ruin the coin, makes good bearings and bushings but bad for coins. Peroxide will do a fantastic job of lifting away dirt and crud that otherwise seems fused to the coin like concrete, leaving a nice patina IF the patina is sound. If the patina is not sound e.g. not shiny, flaking, and falling off, the detail is already toast so you might as well leave the coin alone. Even then, I have dug large cents with AU detail that fell off on its own. I dug one with this detail, it was sitting on my center console on the way home, as soon as it dried out all and I mean all the detail flaked up like a dried out lake bed and fell off leaving a pretty smooth disc behind. Practice on some common indian head cents, they do quite well in peroxide. Tends to darken the coins a bit but man will the peroxide bring out the detail if they have a sound patina. One peroxide trick, if the patina is borderline I do not heat the peroxide, soak it at room temp this will slow the action. Boiling hot peroxide on the other hand can be too aggressive, for sound patinas hot but not boiling hot seems to do the best job.

Charles

 

[Charles (Upstate NY)]

So you're taking a calcuated risk cleaning fragile, possibly valuable coins. I'd rather do nothing, just put the coin away and hope that perhaps in the future new methods will be found to clean such coins safely. If not, at least you've not damaged the coin further, and what detail there may still be will not be obliterated permanently.

I think the point Don was making was how can you damage a coin in terms of value that is already environmentally damaged. If the detail is gone its gone.

But never mind that, once you pull these old coppers out of the ground and expose them to oxygen I think the corrosion accelerates and who knows what compounds are in the dirt and crud sitting on the coin surfaces. Cleaning lets you remove this gunk and apply some coin preservative to stop further deterioration. I see unpreserved IH's erupt in bronze rot all the time and pretty quickly.

Just my two cents worth.

Charles

 

[Bavaria Mike]

Very nice find! I can see the mixed results of the before and after clean job. I do not clean too many finds other than water and a light brushing and even that will take away much detail depending on the metal type. It is a good idea to get the dirt off the coin or at least neutralize it. I sometimes use Blue Ribbon preservative. Don in SJ has had some amazing results with the peroxide cleaning method, I have seen many before and after pictures, very impressive! It may be his area works well with the peroxide method, I have tried it several times and do not care for the method however, most of my coins and finds come off farm fields, very acidic from the fertilizers and chemicals. Coins from a forest area are in much better condition usually. HH and congrats, Mike

 

[desertfox]

BF: You're copper looks nice. If it had been mine I would have left it alone though. The problem with the so called " EXPERTS " they each give you a diffrent answer as to a coins value.
The end results are that you're happy with the coin and that's all that matters.

Desertfox