Age? Need i.D on these please i think theyre old old stone tools

[grobb28]

 

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[grobb28]

That's a feasible description. Most rock shelters were used seasonally for short durations at a time. They can be filled with crude quickly made tools that probably served more than one function... a good shelter would have been used over and over again by generations of people. Simply digging a small fire pit could easily introduce artifacts of a previous culture into a more recent layer of soil... In my eyes There's no way of knowing That tip Was ever intentionally Fire treated.
As far as the photos Of the shelter... That would be great Just make sure If using a device with GPS It is turned off.

Where I found these was a fairly small overhang I will take lots of pictures bc you guys are very knowledgable and I would like to know more

 

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[grobb28]

That's a feasible description. Most rock shelters were used seasonally for short durations at a time. They can be filled with crude quickly made tools that probably served more than one function... a good shelter would have been used over and over again by generations of people. Simply digging a small fire pit could easily introduce artifacts of a previous culture into a more recent layer of soil... In my eyes There's no way of knowing That tip Was ever intentionally Fire treated.
As far as the photos Of the shelter... That would be great Just make sure If using a device with GPS It is turned off.

The spearhead I found was fire treated I had a local archeologist tell me but I have since lost the piece. A damn crying shame it was all pink

 

[GatorBoy]

That is a shame. Your pieces are most likely archaic with that in mind. My "argument" with Justplainstrange was mostly to get facts straight.

 

[grobb28]

That is a shame. Your pieces are most likely archaic with that in mind. My "argument" with Justplainstrange was mostly to get facts straight.

And the archeologists also told me it was used to kill big game and buffalo something about a spiral shape when you point the tip towards you

 

[grobb28]

That is a shame. Your pieces are most likely archaic with that in mind. My "argument" with Justplainstrange was mostly to get facts straight.

Hey I have question Where's the best place to find artifacts around rock shelter / overhangs?? Like in the overhang itself or more kind of in the opening or in front of it

 

[grobb28]

And the archeologists also told me it was used to kill big game and buffalo something about a spiral shape when you point the tip towards you

And the one in my pictures that is broke and looks like a spokeshave it has that same spiral shape when u point the tip towards you

 

[JustPlainStrange]

If you took the time to read the page I provided you would have not only seen the points I posted but also where Perino and Wormington were quoted by art Gumbus when the description of the Random flaked sub type (TYPE II) was given.(TYPE I) is the one to which you are referring to as the ONLY type. It also describes very clearly the lack of a diamond shaped cross section..a random flake pattern and a wider more triangular blade in (TYPE II) I'm not an archaeologist as I'm guessing you are mostly because I've spent time speaking to many and conversationally you remind me of many I have met... ..nor do I belive there is one out there that already learnded it all.
I learned a long time ago never to use the words ALL.. NONE...ONLY.. or ALWAYS when being factual.
Scottsbluff - LITHICS-Net

The diamond shaped cross section (as noted by me in an earlier post) is for Eden - other Cody Complex pieces are lenticular. They are parallel pressure flaked, these collateral flakes terminate in the middle and this is what forms the median ridge. The only difference between type II and type 1 is typically the shoulder area, with type 2 being far more prominent. I have even seen a few examples that exhibited slight barbs. Flaking is generally the same. The only place that I have noticed Cody Complex flaking patterns change is in the Great Basin / Pacific Northwest - some examples found there are a different monkey entirely. When Greg first wrote vol. 1 of "Selected Preforms, points and knives of the NA indian", he made several mistakes (admittedly) and some of that is in the Scottsbluff description. Flaking and location being two of those things. Scottsbluff are generally not found in Illinois; However, Hardin are. It is impossible to differentiate an early Hardin from a Scottsbluff. It is impossible to differentiate the distal blade portion of Scottsbluff, Dovetail and early Hardin (Hardin did change). Hardin and Scottsbluff are pretty close to being the same point, one is eastern tradition and one is western. Even the age is the same, but Hardin did have a longer temporal range.

 

[grobb28]

And the one in my pictures that is broke and looks like a spokeshave it has that same spiral shape when u point the tip towards you

I made new thread of a few pics if my spot I will take more because there's a little more to the rock structure

 

[JustPlainStrange]

Grobbs, let me start out by saying that it sounds like the archaeologist you talked to didn't know much about flint or projectile points. That's common, it's not their job. The "spiral shape when the tip is pointed toward you", more than likely it was caused by beveling. Beveling is a technique used in resharpening to conserve material and prolong the livelihood of knives.

The site you are hunting appears to be multi-component and inhabited by several different people over the years. At least some of the artifacts you found are middle Woodland, it's possible that some others are Archaic.

 

[grobb28]

Grobbs, let me start out by saying that it sounds like the archaeologist you talked to didn't know much about flint or projectile points. That's common, it's not their job. The "spiral shape when the tip is pointed toward you", more than likely it was caused by beveling. Beveling is a technique used in resharpening to conserve material and prolong the livelihood of knives.

The site you are hunting appears to be multi-component and inhabited by several different people over the years. At least some of the artifacts you found are middle Woodland, it's possible that some others are Archaic.

What is early backed knife !? Is this possibly one

 

[JustPlainStrange]

No, that's a fractured end of a biface. It's possible that it could have been utilized after it was broken, but I doubt it.

 

[GatorBoy]

The diamond shaped cross section (as noted by me in an earlier post) is for Eden - other Cody Complex pieces are lenticular. They are parallel pressure flaked, these collateral flakes terminate in the middle and this is what forms the median ridge. The only difference between type II and type 1 is typically the shoulder area, with type 2 being far more prominent. I have even seen a few examples that exhibited slight barbs. Flaking is generally the same. The only place that I have noticed Cody Complex flaking patterns change is in the Great Basin / Pacific Northwest - some examples found there are a different monkey entirely. When Greg first wrote vol. 1 of "Selected Preforms, points and knives of the NA indian", he made several mistakes (admittedly) and some of that is in the Scottsbluff description. Flaking and location being two of those things. Scottsbluff are generally not found in Illinois; However, Hardin are. It is impossible to differentiate an early Hardin from a Scottsbluff. It is impossible to differentiate the distal blade portion of Scottsbluff, Dovetail and early Hardin (Hardin did change). Hardin and Scottsbluff are pretty close to being the same point, one is eastern tradition and one is western. Even the age is the same, but Hardin did have a longer temporal range.

Your time in this explanation is appreciated.
It also leaves me wanting to question your background if you so choose to share it.

 

[grobb28]

No, that's a fractured end of a biface. It's possible that it could have been utilized after it was broken, but I doubt it.

Not sure about it being fractured biface If so it would have been huge

 

[Get-the-point]

Just plain, the point type in Gators first reply is in fact Cody complex.....holland would not be correct nor would early Hardin share the form exhibited in that photo. Next thing you talk of heat treating and how the Cody complex people did not treat there points. Interesting to think that. When all cultures used heat treating to make points less brittle and easier to work, not to mention taking out air pockets exposing a weak point. Next you keep talking about the cross section being diamond shaped and they are. The point in the second photo gator posted, yes first and third points are Scotties but the second one as you know is a Holland. In what way shape and form does a Scotty or Eden even resemble a dovetail when all dovetails are beveled, corner notched and sometimes serrated? I'll tell you they do not. Base form and flaking pattern separates a Holland from a Scotty. Holland is the only point that could be related. Yet Perino being a great collector as you said was admittedly wrong. So when a couple of people start tossing around opinions then write it up it now becomes fact I guess. I am still laughing at the correlation between dovetail and Cody points In that write-up. When you go quoting someone elses work please make sure it is infallable. You seem to know a little about the Cody people, but you are wrong with your comparisons and as far as gators point it was a gift from another member so it truly would be despicable to turn over a fake point and say it is real. As for the points type and I say this after handling several Scotties and Edens it is in fact a Eden and if he would send it out to get it authenticated I'd bet you it would come back as such............GTP

 

[pointshunter]

These look a lot like the pieces I find on a flint ridge where they were made.

 

[grobb28]

These look a lot like the pieces I find on a flint ridge where they were made.

Huh ?

 

[pointshunter]

Huh ?

Some of the pieces pictured look like some pieces I found in a spot where they made points

 

[grobb28]

Some of the pieces pictured look like some pieces I found in a spot where they made points

Oh, what state do u find them ? And how old would u guess ?

 

[GatorBoy]

Just plain, the point type in Gators first reply is in fact Cody complex.....holland would not be correct nor would early Hardin share the form exhibited in that photo. Next thing you talk of heat treating and how the Cody complex people did not treat there points. Interesting to think that. When all cultures used heat treating to make points less brittle and easier to work, not to mention taking out air pockets exposing a weak point. Next you keep talking about the cross section being diamond shaped and they are. The point in the second photo gator posted, yes first and third points are Scotties but the second one as you know is a Holland. In what way shape and form does a Scotty or Eden even resemble a dovetail when all dovetails are beveled, corner notched and sometimes serrated? I'll tell you they do not. Base form and flaking pattern separates a Holland from a Scotty. Holland is the only point that could be related. Yet Perino being a great collector as you said was admittedly wrong. So when a couple of people start tossing around opinions then write it up it now becomes fact I guess. I am still laughing at the correlation between dovetail and Cody points In that write-up. When you go quoting someone elses work please make sure it is infallable. You seem to know a little about the Cody people, but you are wrong with your comparisons and as far as gators point it was a gift from another member so it truly would be despicable to turn over a fake point and say it is real. As for the points type and I say this after handling several Scotties and Edens it is in fact a Eden and if he would send it out to get it authenticated I'd bet you it would come back as such............GTP

I tell you what... I owe you for taking the time to do that... I had grown weary and was a bit aggravated so I left it alone. As I'm sure you know that's not always very easy for me.

 

[grobb28]

Some of the pieces pictured look like some pieces I found in a spot where they made points

I also found a 4 inch spearhead in same spot but someone stole it from me unfortunately . I think they look very old but I'm no pro