Age? Need i.D on these please i think theyre old old stone tools

[grobb28]

 

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[grobb28]

I also found a 4 inch spearhead in same spot but someone stole it from me unfortunately . I think they look very old but I'm no pro

Found these in northern ok

 

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[JustPlainStrange]

Just plain, the point type in Gators first reply is in fact Cody complex.....holland would not be correct nor would early Hardin share the form exhibited in that photo. Next thing you talk of heat treating and how the Cody complex people did not treat there points. Interesting to think that. When all cultures used heat treating to make points less brittle and easier to work, not to mention taking out air pockets exposing a weak point. Next you keep talking about the cross section being diamond shaped and they are. The point in the second photo gator posted, yes first and third points are Scotties but the second one as you know is a Holland. In what way shape and form does a Scotty or Eden even resemble a dovetail when all dovetails are beveled, corner notched and sometimes serrated? I'll tell you they do not. Base form and flaking pattern separates a Holland from a Scotty. Holland is the only point that could be related. Yet Perino being a great collector as you said was admittedly wrong. So when a couple of people start tossing around opinions then write it up it now becomes fact I guess. I am still laughing at the correlation between dovetail and Cody points In that write-up. When you go quoting someone elses work please make sure it is infallable. You seem to know a little about the Cody people, but you are wrong with your comparisons and as far as gators point it was a gift from another member so it truly would be despicable to turn over a fake point and say it is real. As for the points type and I say this after handling several Scotties and Edens it is in fact a Eden and if he would send it out to get it authenticated I'd bet you it would come back as such............GTP

Just about everything you said was incorrect. The middle point is not even close to being Cody Complex. It's rare when you see Cody with a concave base like that - only a few example do occur and they are in a very limited area. The flaking is also incorrect.

Just because the red point was a gift, does not make it authentic - it only means it was a gift.

The "diamond-shaped craoss-section" was given in reference to Eden, not Scottsbluff.

You state "all cultures used heat treating to make points" - this really doesn't even require a response, it's absurd. Intentional heat-treating did not start popping up on points until middle archaic. When's the last time that you saw a heat-treated Clovis or Folsom - I mean, besides the fake on as your avatar.

Early Dovetail and Hardin points did not practice beveling. Later St. Charles did practice beveling, Ohio button base did not. If you take the distal end of any of them, they are indistinguishable from Scottsbluff.

 

[GatorBoy]

Just about everything you said was incorrect. The middle point is not even close to being Cody Complex. It's rare when you see Cody with a concave base like that - only a few example do occur and they are in a very limited area. The flaking is also incorrect.

Just because the red point was a gift, does not make it authentic - it only means it was a gift.

The "diamond-shaped craoss-section" was given in reference to Eden, not Scottsbluff.

You state "all cultures used heat treating to make points" - this really doesn't even require a response, it's absurd. Intentional heat-treating did not start popping up on points until middle archaic. When's the last time that you saw a heat-treated Clovis or Folsom - I mean, besides the fake on as your avatar.

Early Dovetail and Hardin points did not practice beveling. Later St. Charles did practice beveling, Ohio button base did not. If you take the distal end of any of them, they are indistinguishable from Scottsbluff.

You sir....your responce is filled with half truths and inconsistencies... not to mention incorrect information. All of which stated in a be all end all fashion that is "ALWAYS" ... Associated with misstatement of fact. And every time one of your statements are rightfully challenged... you follow it with backpedaling like you've done here again.
So far everyone that has challenged your info has something fake..haha.... reminds me of a kid taking his ball and going home.

 

[GatorBoy]

If this is the point You have referred to as the "red point" maybe it's just a question of vision.

 

[JustPlainStrange]

You sir....your responce is filled with half truths and inconsistencies... not to mention incorrect information. All of which stated in a be all end all fashion that is "ALWAYS" ... Associated with misstatement of fact. And every time one of your statements are rightfully challenged... you follow it with backpedaling like you've done here again.
So far everyone that has challenged your info has something fake..haha.... reminds me of a kid taking his ball and going home.

"All of which stated in a be all end all fashion that is "ALWAYS"" - Really? I don't see where I used the word "always" anywhere? I will though, if that's what it takes. Do you also need diagrams or pretty pictures to help explain? Here..jot this down - Artifact forums seem to ALWAYS (you're welcome) have a clique, a little gang of people who control the flow. If you are not part of that little group of people then you won't have much meaning on that forum. This is the reason I quit visiting said forums. It's not only bad for membership, it's not conducive to proper learning.

So do you agree with your buddy that all cultures intentionally heat treated their material? Do you agree with him that any points given are authentic, because surely no person would give away a fake?

 

[GatorBoy]

 

[GatorBoy]

Here you go buddy.

 

[GatorBoy]

"All of which stated in a be all end all fashion that is "ALWAYS"" - Really? I don't see where I used the word "always" anywhere? I will though, if that's what it takes. Do you also need diagrams or pretty pictures to help explain? Here..jot this down - Artifact forums seem to ALWAYS (you're welcome) have a clique, a little gang of people who control the flow. If you are not part of that little group of people then you won't have much meaning on that forum. This is the reason I quit visiting said forums. It's not only bad for membership, it's not conducive to proper learning.

So do you agree with your buddy that all cultures intentionally heat treated their material? Do you agree with him that any points given are authentic, because surely no person would give away a fake?

That proper learning you mentioned applies to you as well.
How conductive would you say calling someones avatar a fake is?
Could be you just don't make many friends.

 

[JustPlainStrange]

What exactly is the picture supposed to prove? You didn't answer my questions.

 

[GatorBoy]

No but you answered all of mine.
By the way.. heat treating was happening in the early archaic. It just really took off in the middle archaic... with the change to a more sedentary lifestyle and boom in population.

 

[JustPlainStrange]

And yes, that is the red point in question (that you showed). That is not a Scottsbluff, Johnson is a possibility though.

 

[JustPlainStrange]

I'm done with this. Have a wonderful day.

 

[bravowhiskey]

Wow, that was both entertaining and educational.

grobb...best of luck with your quest and don't get discouraged.

HH

BW

 

[GatorBoy]

Wow, that was both entertaining and educational.

grobb...best of luck with your quest and don't get discouraged.

HH

BW

So true.. and yes.. best of luck to you.

 

[Get-the-point]

My turn.. This goes out to the so called expert that quotes others work. You want to call out my avatar, that's a laugh... So I guess the double papers on it meant nothing. You clearly have no clue when it comes to patination on western artifacts or proper make other then what you have read. Now where in my statement did I say that Holland point was a Scotty? I never said that I said there maybe a relation from Scotty and Holland points but no relation to dovetails. Why don't you dig a little deeper on heat treating... If you did this you would find out points were being heat treated for possibly 164,000bp. But you knew that too right? Or how Clovis reduction technology incorporated heat treating of a core to help in the reduction and to produce sharper flakes for tools. As I said heat treating has been taking place for up to 71,000bp possibly even up to 164,000bp. As far as Clovis technology the Anzick Cache, Wenatchee Cache, Simons Cache and several others that have been unearthed have all shown heat treatment. Now let me inform you of forum rules since you are new. It is against the rules to call a persons artifact fake. You do not know the circumstances or anything about it and therefore common forum etiquette is not to say that. I love your expert opinion on the Cody people all quoted from the infallable Mr. Greg Perino. I'm sorry I'd sooner learn from Jeb Taylor or Dwain Rogers or even Stermer then to listen to what a person who went out and hunted, put out a couple of books on his finds and then start a business with it to authenticate. I also can say that your response being arrogant is clearly filled with half truths and I would suggest anyone who wants to know about the Cody people to disregard justplains response and research the Cody people yourself. Your making friends real fast here aren't ya. Keep breaking forum rules and I can almost guarantee you will be banned. Hell you could set a precedent on fastest banning if you keep your attitude up. We do not condone fake artifacts and will suggest it but never say it. So before you claim a persons artifact is fake you better be dam sure of it as in the case of my avatar which while i had the pleasure of owning that was papered by two of the best. Here are two links to bring you up to speed!!!

I especially like the part just under bi facial flake cores on page4!!���� This link is about Clovis reduction technology of the Anzick Cache and contradicts the arrogance of just plains dumb statement. This is also to help justplainstrange learning curve.

http://escholarship.org/uc/item/1gr0p7t5#page-4

This link will help justplains understand how long heat treating lithics has been taking place......... Just here to help you justplainstrange...it would appear you lack in the knowledge part so let me educate you further....

http://archaeology.about.com/b/2009/08/17/stone-tool-heat-treatment-at-pinnacle-point.htm

Have a nice day��

 

[Get-the-point]

What no response justplainstrange? You basically called me a idiot in your reply above to me calling it absurd and that heat treating did not take place until middle archaic and then you tell me that have I ever seen a Clovis blade that was heat treated. You have contradicted every response I have given yet everytime you are proven wrong you never admit it. Well since you never responded to this post after you were proven wrong or even give a humble apology I believe this education you have been given has shut you up in the proverbial sense. I believe you owe me a apology as I never attacked you just tried to educate you. Yet you had to basically call my response idiotic and that was not right. Instead of questioning me you went on the defense and then posted your statements. Well once again you have been proven wrong. How many times must I prove you wrong before you finally understand there is alot you don't know about artifacts.

 

[Get-the-point]

"All of which stated in a be all end all fashion that is "ALWAYS"" - Really? I don't see where I used the word "always" anywhere? I will though, if that's what it takes. Do you also need diagrams or pretty pictures to help explain? Here..jot this down - Artifact forums seem to ALWAYS (you're welcome) have a clique, a little gang of people who control the flow. If you are not part of that little group of people then you won't have much meaning on that forum. This is the reason I quit visiting said forums. It's not only bad for membership, it's not conducive to proper learning.

So do you agree with your buddy that all cultures intentionally heat treated their material? Do you agree with him that any points given are authentic, because surely no person would give away a fake?

That's some funny stuff right there. How old are you? Were you picked on in class? I mean really now. This statement really shows your inability to or lack of skill in speaking to people. Gator is a decent person, but him and I both debate alot and just like you who brought some knowledge to the table can be wrong as well. I am not immune to that either. So if you want to make friends here learn how to give humble answers and replies and be prepared to supply proof of your claim when debating with another member.......................GTP