Ancient coin ? (Updated! more pics)

[history hunter]

I found this coin while metal detecting when I was a kid. I thought it was fake until I brought it to a coin show and a dealer said it was not necessarily fake. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it?

 

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[IronSpike]

I don't know much about the Corvo coin hoard. Which coins or sources were the 5 ID's based on? Were any of these coins documented by museums or coin collectors of the time? Do we at least have hand drawn pics? IMO just more questions and don't want to get off track on ID for HH's find.

I think everyone on this thread have been unbiased. Even to the question raised as to whether Columbus was the first to discover and explore America.

No green check yet and somewhat surprised bigcypresshunter hasn't received any feedback on contacts made

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Unbiased? Your own statements certainly hint at a personal bias, but I will take your word that you are un-biased.

Of course I am unbiased. If I thought the coin was ancient and the evidence pointed that way, I would certainly say so. I have absolutely NO reason to be biased.

You have concluded that this example is a "turn-of-the-century Sears Roebuck jewelry" without having found a match?

The catalog artist drawings are not always exact. I will have to put the two side by side. It looks like a close enough match to me. Left (top)pic is from a 1909 Sears Roebuck catalog and the right (bottom)pic is Gloria Farleys Oklahoma coin. The "Roman" head may also be a Sears match.


I havent proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt with an exact match on the other Farley coin but the evidence is piling up. I cannot say Im 100 percent certain like some of the others. After many years of buying/selling/collecting antiques at flea markets and looking at pics at TN and eBay, I get a "feel" for what is real. I am not an expert on ancients so I am trying to find the evidence. Sears sold a lot of these things out of their mail order catalog and it makes sense that they would show up in middle America.

 

[Kiros32]

Pretty horsey thingy

So I think we should discuss whether this is ancient or modern, no one seems to have touched on this quandry yet ...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am willing to wait to hear from an expert in ancient Carthaginian coins, like David Sear mentioned earlier.

What about sending a pic to Mark Parker?

 

[IronSpike]

I am willing to wait to hear from an expert in ancient Carthaginian coins, like David Sear mentioned earlier.

What about sending a pic to Mark Parker?

I think that's a good idea

 

[Oroblanco]

IronSpike wrote

I don't know much about the Corvo coin hoard. Which coins or sources were the 5 ID's based on? Were any of these coins documented by museums or coin collectors of the time? Do we at least have hand drawn pics? IMO just more questions and don't want to get off track on ID for HH's find.

Pohl explains it fairly well, read in the book I posted a link to earlier
<from Atlantic Crossings Before Columbus, Frederick Pohl,http://books.google.com/books?id=3h-kqo...20azores corvo carthage&f=false>

I did not mean to de-rail the discussion, in fact my whole point is that HH's coin COULD be ancient, that we ought not to leap to any conclusions, and as I mentioned earlier, I am perfectly happy to wait for an expert opinion. No offense intended to any of our 'resident' T-net experts, but I know a bit on Punic coins and have been collecting them for years, it is a fact that not all types are known and new types are occasionally "discovered". Other fairly well known types are still objects of serious contention, such as the silver coins of Jugurtha (Numidian king who fought Rome with some success) which are thought to be not of Jugurtha nor Numidian by some experts but of Carthaginian general Mago and Siculo-punic. The "state" of knowledge concerning Punic, Siculo-punic, Sardo-punic etc coins is not on a level with the knowledge of Roman or Greek coins.
Oroblanco

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am perfectly happy to wait for an expert opinion

If we waited for an outside expert opinion on everything, we wouldnt have anything to do.

If no one can find another match, we may have no choice but to wait. I hope HistoryHunter will keep us updated. Whatever it turns out to be, its an exact duplicate of the Alabama and Arkansas coins. If we prove this is a TOC medallion, as it appears to be, we would prove that Gloria Harley, her coin experts, several universities and her cohorts, are all wrong.

I know a bit on Punic coins and have been collecting them for years, it is a fact that not all types are known and new types are occasionally "discovered".
...The "state" of knowledge concerning Punic, Siculo-punic, Sardo-punic etc coins is not on a level with the knowledge of Roman or Greek coins.
Oroblanco

That may help explain it.

 

[IronSpike]

IronSpike wrote

I don't know much about the Corvo coin hoard. Which coins or sources were the 5 ID's based on? Were any of these coins documented by museums or coin collectors of the time? Do we at least have hand drawn pics? IMO just more questions and don't want to get off track on ID for HH's find.

Pohl explains it fairly well, read in the book I posted a link to earlier
<from Atlantic Crossings Before Columbus, Frederick Pohl,http://books.google.com/books?id=3h-kqo...20azores corvo carthage&f=false>

I did not mean to de-rail the discussion, in fact my whole point is that HH's coin COULD be ancient, that we ought not to leap to any conclusions, and as I mentioned earlier, I am perfectly happy to wait for an expert opinion. No offense intended to any of our 'resident' T-net experts, but I know a bit on Punic coins and have been collecting them for years, it is a fact that not all types are known and new types are occasionally "discovered". Other fairly well known types are still objects of serious contention, such as the silver coins of Jugurtha (Numidian king who fought Rome with some success) which are thought to be not of Jugurtha nor Numidian by some experts but of Carthaginian general Mago and Siculo-punic. The "state" of knowledge concerning Punic, Siculo-punic, Sardo-punic etc coins is not on a level with the knowledge of Roman or Greek coins.
Oroblanco

No derailing by bringing up the Corvo coin hoard. Just didn't help any on the ID. What concerns me about it being ancient is the fact that no known match have been found anywhere else than in the US. If Anciently minted in the US wouldn't other signs/evidence of these explorers have been found by now?

 

[history hunter]

I have sent an invitation to Mr. Mark McMenamin to take a look at the coin.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I have sent an invitation to Mr. Mark McMenamin to take a look at the coin.

Good idea. I also called him and left a message.

I find this all very interesting and I am a bit surprised that other members do not. Maybe they are just withholding comments.

 

[Oroblanco]

SWR wrote

Arethusa seems to be missing her earring on this fantasy coin

I respectfully disagree, first that it represents Arethusa as it is more likely Persephone, but also on your conclusion that it is a "fantasy coin". Have you missed some of the posts? If so here are relevant sections, with links to the sources:


McMenamin Offers New Evidence for
Controversial Theory

He has borrowed three of the coins and has conducted various tests on them. One incorporated a new technique he developed to assay the elemental makeup of corroded ancient coins using Mount Holyoke's scanning electron microscope and energy dispersive spectrometer. While discussing the possibility that the coins are forgeries, McMenamin provides scientific evidence suggesting they are more likely the genuine article, confirmation that the Phoenicians were here first
<from>
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/offices/comm/csj/990108/mcman.html
<Professor Mark McMenamin>

or

After two hours' conversation, Kelley allowed the coin to be mailed to Boston for identification. Totten and Fell both examined it closely, the former using a Zeiss binocular microscope, with a magnification of 40 power. Totten stated, "The coin is bronze, imperfectly round, measuring 29.5 by 25.0 millimeters in diameter, and weighing 7.63 grams. It has suffered from corrosion. There is no question of its antiquity or its authenticity. The patina on the coin and in the hole has several colors: green, oxblood, yellow, and tan. Indications are that it has remained buried for centuries."

Both Totten and Fell agreed that the incomplete inscription did not allow absolute verification of its source, but they thought it was struck in ancient Carthage before 146 B.C., the date of the Third Punic War. The design of the profile is borrowed from Sicily, as it portrays Arethusa, a nymph of a spring in Ellis. The dolphins are ancient symbols of good fortune. Although the obverse, considered alone, would indicate that it was a coin of Syracuse, Sicily, the reverse identified it as Carthaginian. The horse head is the symbol of Carthage; the date palm was used to indicate the word "Phoenicia" (it was the Phoenicians who established ancient Carthage near the present site of Tunis) to any Greeks who could not read the Punic script. The four marks in the inscription on the coin were three Punic letters, but incomplete as the left side was worn off.
<from>
http://www.gloriafarley.com/chap11.htm

Totten is Dr. Norman Totten, Fell is Dr. Barry Fell. The images of the coins match History Hunter's coin extremely well. The Sears and Roebuck jewelry is indeed similar, but not a perfect match by a long shot. You are certainly welcome to your opinion that it is a "fantasy coin" but several professors disagree with you. The coins do not prove Punic visitors of course, but do support the theory that they came here.
Oroblanco

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The Sears and Roebuck jewelry is indeed similar, but not a perfect match by a long shot.

The Sears Roebuck coin appears to me a perfect match, only the image has been reversed.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings SWR, Bigcypresshunter and everyone,
History Hunter's coin is obviously not silver, so although the silver tetra photo you posted is IMHO gorgeous, it is quite a different coin. Carthage and her colonies struck coins in gold, electrum, silver, "billon" (debased silver) and bronze, which means there are differences as the dies use for the gold coins were not the same as those used for silver or bronze, though they often used similar designs and devices (Tanit, the horse, the palm, etc) and similar inscriptions. So your example is not the same type of coin, which you already knew but didn't like it that three professors have already given opinions that coins extremely similar to History Hunter's find are genuinely ancient, so you insist on calling it a "fantasy coin". The values that have been posted are also quite irrelevant as they are for SILVER coins not bronze or copper.

We could as well call US 20 cent coins "fantasy coins" for they are unlike other known denominations. Would you compare a copper penny to a silver dime and say that the penny must be "fantasy" because it is unlike the dime? Of course not. Please feel free to post more nice photos of silver Punic coins SWR, though they are clearly not of the same METAL so are not too comparable for design, size, weight etc but I do like them!

Just my opinion and I could be mistaken, but I think History Hunter's coin could be a genuine coin, probably Siculo-punic and dating to the period of the wars between Carthage and Syracusa. I would like to see what an expert in Punic coins would say about it of course, but based on the comparison with the "Farley" coins which have been examined by professors, I think it is more likely a genuine coin than any "fantasy".

As for the Sears-Roebuck jewelry, it was nickel plated, which should tell you something since the "Farley" coins were SILVER plated, so cannot be the same amigo.

History Hunter if I could afford it, I would offer to buy your coin, but in any case I congratulate you on your rare find!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

As for the Sears-Roebuck jewelry, it was nickel plated, which should tell you something since the "Farley" coins were SILVER plated, so cannot be the same amigo.

Are you sure about that? My Sears catalog says silver plated.

 

[Oroblanco]

Bigcypresshunter wrote

Are you sure about that? My Sears catalog says silver plated.

Well maybe I read this wrong, since this is the one you cited, despite the horse head being reversed and no palm tree or inscription, what does it say?


Sheesh.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

BigCy,

That is interesting (to me, anyway). Could you scan a copy of that page? What year is that Sears catalogue?

Thanks,

B

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bigcypresshunter wrote

Are you sure about that? My Sears catalog says silver plated.

Well maybe I read this wrong, since this is the one you cited, despite the horse head being reversed and no palm tree or inscription, what does it say?
Sheesh.

LOL What does this say? (3rd time posting for you)


I thought you were following this thread. The horses head is NOT a match to anything. No one has yet found a match to HHs coin or the other 2 Farley coins that are supposedly from the same die.
I just posted that to show that a "Roman" head or horse was the craze and often depicted on jewelry. The Sears match is to Farleys Oklahoma coin.

It may not matter, Mrs O, because they came silver plated, nickel plated, gilt finish, and oxidized finish on German silver. I dont think History Hunters coin is silver plated. I dont even think its bronze.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

BigCy,

That is interesting (to me, anyway). Could you scan a copy of that page? What year is that Sears catalogue?

Thanks,

B

Yes, I can post the whole page when I find it. Its a 1909 Sears Roebuck and Co.

Yes I think its interesting too. Im sorry if I didnt explain it all. No one has yet to find a match but the Arkansas, Alabama and History Hunter coins are identical right down to the worn denticals, making it almost a mathematical impossibility. I think when the experts see what HH has found, they will change their mind about calling it ancient.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

What I thought it read was that even the die marks were the same on the coins? Which would indicate that they are related.

Oh well - it is an interesting subject - I would enjoy seeing the 1909 version.


B

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What I thought it read was that even the die marks were the same on the coins? Which would indicate that they are related.

Oh well - it is an interesting subject - I would enjoy seeing the 1909 version.


B

Because the wear pattern is is identical on 2 Farley coins, their explanation is that it must be from the same die. Yes it probably is the same fantasy die that is trying to fake a wear pattern. I cannot explain why they think its ancient when HH has found a coin identical that clearly does not look at all ancient from the pic. Yes its interesting and your opinion is always welcome.

I read the links backwards and forward and I cannot explain how they could make a mistake. I wish they would come online and comment.