Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell me.

[sonofmitch]

I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

 

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[Zephyr]

How often did the circus come to town in that area? If not part of the "big top", it may have belonged to a smaller tent....

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

I thought she meant Medievel as in Renaissance Fair, but I may be wrong. Maybe the very early Spanish Colonial period had medievel influences.

I guess the Spanish Missionarys used tents because I found this online.
In September of 1791 the Spanish priests assigned to Santa Cruz pitched their tent on Mission Hill and with donated animals and supplies from the nearby missions began building the Santa Cruz mission on the banks of the San Lorenzo river

But she did say medievel and I thought that meant the Middle Ages. Why wouldnt she just say Spanish Mission or Spanish Colonial or maybe Im up too late?

 

[sonofmitch]

Cypress etc.
I thought that same thing about the Medievel reference. Maybe she just meant it was popularized during that era. But that is the appropriate time for King Arthur and his search for the holy grail. Ok, don't no one respond to the holy grail refernece. It's just a joke. I know better.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I double-checked the e-mail ... and her exact words were as I posted them earlier.

"(such as those used in the construction of) ... a medieval pavilion."

She was well aware the item was found in Texas, and I think her use of the words "such as" were simply to associate it with a generic type of pavilion/tent. There may be others, but two Spanish words for tent are ... "Toldos" and "Envalet."

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's one more bit of food for thought ...

Notice in the image below of this 18th-Century "Observatory" tent how the upper crown poles go directly into the cap itself. Maybe this explains the six holes around the base, and that they were intended for small poles and not necessarily for ropes. And maybe, just maybe if my aunt had a mustache she would be my uncle.

Like BigCy said earlier ... "It's late!"

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Are the holes angled?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

I'm sad to report that my "tent dog" isn't that good of a hunter. But I did find the following link which will help establish that Spanish explorers in Texas did in fact have fairly estensive tent camps. The two photos below are from the site, and show the type of tents (er, "Pavilions") that the early conquistidors used. This particular site deals primarily with Coronado's travels through northern Texas, but may help in our continuing research.

http://www.psi.edu/coronado/

The "Discovering a Campsite in Texas" is of particular interest.

P.S. I sent them an e-mail inquiry.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

The pavilion thing hatched an egg ... (or should I say "laid" one? )

Research is a funny thing. First it takes you in one direction, and then another. And sometimes you go in circles. That's kind of how I feel about this next suggestion. But I think it is worth looking into. I won't go into detail as to where the idea came from, other than to say there is a possibility that it fits. So without further ado, I give you ...

SPANISH GALLEON (SHIP) "LANTERN" ( or rather, the top of one )

Parden the expression ... "poop" lantern.

The attached images will help illustrate what I'm referring to, but I suspect you know where I'm going with this. These lanterns were huge, and they were mounted or hung from both the stern as well as the bow of most old sailing vessels, or galleons. This might explain the various holes that were intended for ventilation. Of course, parts are missing, but your dome item might be the top of one, or the crown. This same design would work for the top of an old gas street lamp as well, but based on where you found it, how long it likely had been buried, and the fact there wasn't a street or town within miles, it just might be your hunting dog. Who knows? Maybe it broke and one of the conquistidors kept oranges in it. It's impossible to say for sure. (And I am not suggesting it came up-river by boat, but rather that it was transported overland by cart or wagon for some reason).

And let me be the first to ask ... "What the heck would a Galleon lantern be doing along the banks of the San Antonio river in southern Texas?" I can't answer this, other than to say ... "Gold is where you find it!" Anyway, I'm going to look into it and will let you know what, if anything, that I find. If anyone is up for a wild-goose-chase, please join me.

Respectfully,

Bobsessed ... "The Snapping turtle."

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

I promise not to bombard this thread with a bunch of "wanna be" lanterns.

The one I post now is simply to show a close-up of one (replica) to help illustrate the path I am traveling. Note that this particular image is shot from the bottom, but that it is hexagon in design. I have read accounts where these lanterns had holes on top for ventilation of the smoke generated from either candles or oil. However, most of the images I have looked at show them mounted and not necessarily hanging. If/when I find a better image, I will replace this one with it. I also intend to give equal time to large, gas street lamps. But as yet, I have not found an image of one worth posting.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

I just now received the following e-mail from an individual who presents himself as an expert in antiquities. I copy/paste it exacty as received without further comment, except to say it adds credence to what I said earlier about "going around" in circles. I'm getting dizzy!

Bob

~

Hello Bob,

Thank you for the e-mail. This is a tough one. I am taking a guess at this, it may be the exterior axle (hub cap) to an early horse drawn coach. Similar style to an 18th century coach. I hope this helps.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I didnt even realize this thing was riveted. I think some very sharp close up pics of the rivets may help. Can we get some high resolution sharp close up pics?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

Despite how this looks, I say again I have no intention of flooding your thread with uneccessary images. However, out of respect for the individuals who suggested Street Lamps and Carriage Wheels, I thought it only prudent to share the following so as to add some measure of merit to those areas which I believe are worthy of additional research. And while I'm at it, I thought this would be a good time to share my favorite link. Just put anything you want in the upper left search box, and you will likely get more images than you will know what to do with. It's especially good for old paintings and the like. Just for the fun of it, try searching "Clipper Ships" and you will see what I mean. I got the photos below, as well as those of the ships I posted earlier from this site.

http://www.art.com/asp/default-asp/_/posters.htm?ui=4013551172924C4DA5E039F477CC95CA

Thanks in advance for not yelling at me.

Respectfully,

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

It deeply saddens me to report that I may have to throw the towel in on this one. I realize I have helped create the monster it has become, but what else can I say or do? Yesterday, (Sunday, 1-31-10) I was feeling a little under the weather and spent most of six hours in the house on the computer. I revisited every site I had saved and searched them and others until I was blurry eyed. But as in the past I came up with ziltch as far as a positive identification is concerned. I go on record here and now and say I really don't know what the heck you found.

There have been some great suggestions, almost all of which seem to have some measure of merit. But whatever the item is, it seems to have fallen through the cracks as an official UFO, ... "Unidentified Found Object." Even the archeologist and so called experts appear mystified. It is obviously something, and made by someone for some purpose ... But what? We may never know!

In closing, I intend to post one more reply to follow this one. But after that I will likely cool it for awhile and move on to something else. Occasionally I may dip back in from time to time, and will continue to send inquiries whenever possible. But other than that I will have to leave it up to others, and possibly even providence itself to figure this thing out. The following post is an edited version of the e-mail inquiry I have been sending to various archeologist, antique experts and museum curators, most of which are in Texas.

If anyone wishes to use my e-mail message and send it around the globe, please feel free to do so. And also feel free to edit it in any manner you choose. It's easy to copy and paste to an e-mail page.

So without further ado, I will let the following message speak for itself as my final summation. I want to thank you personally, Mitch, as well as all the others who have contributed and have supported me in my indulgences in what can only be described as one of the most ... (see below)

Thanks again.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch and All ~

Here's the e-mail message I was referring to ...

Dear Fellow History Enthusiast :

This inquiry is being sent to you and others with the hope someone may be able to help identify the item in question which I have attached a photo of.
It was buried about six inches down, and found with a metal detector on private property in a remote region of southern Texas along the San Antonio river near Goliad, Texas. There is very little development in the area other than some dirt roads, and the particular spot where it was found is overgrown with large mesquite trees/brush.
It appears to be made of either brass or bronze, weighs nine pounds, and is very sturdy. It is constructed of individual plates which are shaped and held together with decorative straps that are riveted into place. The base area measures about twelve inches square. It stands about six inches tall. The top hole is three inches in diameter. The six holes around the base are 5/8 inches in diameter each. The inner portions of the six holes are not scratched, nor do they appear to ever have had anything inserted into them. Again, the six holes are 5/8” in diameter which, in my opinion, seem quite large. Ventilation? Drainage? Mounting holes? It's hard to say.
Around the underside there are remnants of what appears to once have been a collar or sheet that was attached (riveted) to the bottom. I emphasize this metal “sheet-collar-plate-cowl” (or whatever it might be called), as this may be a major factor in the identification process. There is no way of knowing at present how far this plate may have extended beyond the perimeter of the base, but I suspect it may have been intended to go under something like roof shingles or clay tiles, or possibly part of whatever it may have been attached to. But I am only guessing at this juncture.
It may have been an exterior piece of some kind, and possibly even mission, church, ranch, or presidio related. Some have suggested it may be part of a chandelier or similar type of fixture like a street lamp, or lighting ornament. Possibly a pavilion cap, or part of a Spanish galleon lantern, a large carriage wheel hub cap, and the list goes on. Of course, I am only speculating about it‘s Spanish origin and design, and have no solid evidence to support this claim other than to repeat it was found in the middle of nowhere in southern Texas along a remote stretch of the San Antonio river. Thus the reason for this inquiry. I need help!

If you recognize the item, have any ideas, or know of someone who does, please contact me with your comments.

Thank you.

Appreciatively,

(Name Here)

(Date Here)

 

[sonofmitch]

BigCypress,
You asked for some pictures of the rivits so I took a few. Hopefully you can find a date on one of them.
Mitch

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont know but it cant hurt. Im starting to realize how old this thing is.

BTW Do you have a Macro lens? (flower icon)

 

[sonofmitch]

I do have a macro on the camera and I thought I used it. Maybe I have to set it each time. I ain't no photographer. Like I told BottleBob. If it would beep like a metal detector when it was in the correct setting then I would understand.
You think this things old, pictures of my butt look the same.
I just sent an inquiry to a museum in Spain. If the translator that I used did it right we may hear something from them.
Mitch

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I do have a macro on the camera and I thought I used it. Maybe I have to set it each time. I ain't no photographer. Like I told BottleBob. If it would beep like a metal detector when it was in the correct setting then I would understand.
You think this things old, pictures of my butt look the same.
I just sent an inquiry to a museum in Spain. If the translator that I used did it right we may hear something from them.
Mitch

Yes you need to set the Macro setting every time you turn on the camera lol. You will only get what you see on the camera screen. If it looks blurry, thats what you will get. Also you need hold it steady you know.
There are a lot better IDers here than I but the middle pic looks old to me, the other 2 pics hurt my eyes.

 

[Tnmountains]

Re: Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell

I still think it is the top of a lantern regardless of style and more than likely one of a kind being hand made. Here is a almost whole one I have and yours
You only have the upper part of the decorative lantern.The rest is missing unfortunately.

 

[IronSpike]

I still think it is the top of a lantern regardless of style and more than likely one of a kind being hand made. Here is a almost whole one I have and yours
You only have the upper part of the decorative lantern.The rest is missing unfortunately.

I have to agree with TnMountains on the lantern/lamp. The hexagonal shape IMO supports this idea.