Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell me.

[sonofmitch]

I found this several years ago near Victoria Texas on the San Antonio river. It's made of brass or bronze and is about 11 inches across and is approximately 1/8 thick. It stands 5 inches high and has a center hole that is 3 inches in diameter. There are six other 5/8 inch holes with one in each corner of its hexagonal shape. These holes are made such that if something were inserted into them that object would stand vertically and not at any other angle than 90 degrees. It appears to be Spanish or French just 'cause I want it to be.
The way it was made was by making 6 identical pieces that were bent to the same shape to make each of the six sides and joined with rivets through the decorative strips that cover each seam. I would say that it's off of a ship, from a mission, or off of a carriage. Surely not a hubcap. Maybe a decorative base for a flagpole Then why the little holes. Six flags over Texas?? Looks hammered into shape. Each of the six pieces at one time had other pieces riveted to them which would have stuck our from the edges that you see now.

Any ideas?? Anyone

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Just curious, whats the 6 holes for?

 

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[IronSpike]

Just curious, whats the 6 holes for?

Would the holes be too big for frame setting?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

Like I said earlier, I'll be stopping by from time to time. I just wanted to let you know I received a reply this morning from a curator with the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC. He said it may take a week or so before I hear back from them, but that they had received my message and were looking into it. Hopefully they will be able to come up with something conclusive. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Bob

P.S. Have you noticed that you currently have 3300 views? Congratulations! But I need to add you have a long way to go to catch up with GoodyGuy's post, "Test your skills on this one," which currently has 61,750 views!

 

[sonofmitch]

Sorry, I don't know what frame setting is. You'll have to enlighten me.

TnMountains,I would have totally agreed with the lamp picture you sent earlier but this thing is heavy. In your picture you can see a dent in the top and it leads me to believe that this is very thin material. I you were to put this on top of the lantern you have the whole thing would topple over at the least provicatio. For those in Texas with me the proper phrase is "tump over". Even the lamps on the Spanish gallions look flimsy. I could be wrong. It would be a new experience for me but I could be.
Mitch

 

[IronSpike]

Sorry, I don't know what frame setting is. You'll have to enlighten me.

TnMountains,I would have totally agreed with the lamp picture you sent earlier but this thing is heavy. In your picture you can see a dent in the top and it leads me to believe that this is very thin material. I you were to put this on top of the lantern you have the whole thing would topple over at the least provicatio. For those in Texas with me the proper phrase is "tump over". Even the lamps on the Spanish gallions look flimsy. I could be wrong. It would be a new experience for me but I could be.
Mitch

Sorry, by frame setting I meant the attachment of the missing part of the lantern. If that's what it is.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I wish we had good high resolution pictures, but we dont. So mitch I hope you understand how hard it is to get a feel for this artifact.

As far as the holes, if they were used for attachment, you should be able to see some marks on top or possible inside wear. We cannot tell from the pics. Do you see any wear or marks showing that these were attachment holes?

Im hoping someone will recognize those rivets from what poor pictures we have. They appear to be a different color than the rest of the piece.

 

[sonofmitch]

Here are some more pictures. Particullarly of the rivits.

 

[sonofmitch]

More pics.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

More pics.

Wow! Those last 4 pics are better. Either you are getting good or you are using a different camera.
Macro setting makes all the difference. Use the highest resolution available. Outside lighting is the best. Also blue or green tablecloth for the background.

I wish Bob had these pictures to send. It may have made a difference.

Those holes seem to be lined up perfectly but NOT half on one side and half on the other, so they must have been drilled after the unit was assembled. But for what?

The rivets look copper and the artifact looks brass.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

I told you I would be back. Primarily for two reasons ...

1. To compliment you on the new photos. Great job! They will help a great deal.

2. To share the following photos. I for one needed reminded what old brass looked
like before being buried in the ground for a hundred plus years. And while I was
at it I thought I would also show some examples of bronze and copper.Your new
photos have opened up a whole new area for me not previously searched. In
the past I kept searching by what I thought it "was" rather than what it was
"made of." Thus a whole new search mode when I use words such as "Antique
Bronze," - "Hand Forged Brass," Victorian Copper, etc. I'm finding all kinds of
stuff that I hadn't even thought of before, and it appears that I have just
scratched the surface. Of course, nothing yet that looks "exactly" like your find.
But the search goes on.
The items pictured below are period pieces from the 17th thru the 19th century.

Thanks again,

Bob

P.S. Are you sure it's brass?
(Knowing the answer to this would significantly reduce the search options).

 

[Tnmountains]

Re: Attention Archeologists, Museum curators. Could be the holy grail. You tell

Mitch you are right but remember there are many diffrent styles from diffrent cultures. Mine cam from a fancy carriage and at one time was inlaid with silver.Later it was coverted to gas and then electric. So it evolved in a way. The actual lantern is very very heavy. I think yours is Spanish design and only the top piece not a whole item. If you go back further in time you would have had a early 1700's one that looked like this used to light an underground stone passage way in a church that was later shelled in the CW. It was for a candle. Reminds me of medieval with the hammered crosses.
Here is another of a set I have from the 1950 era with cut inlaid glass. So many styles from so many cultures.
I am pretty sure you just have the top of a hefty large lantern.The hole in the top to vent. The straps speak Spanish style and the hole. for it to be mounted on its frame. It may have been square as well
I doubt unless you ever find the whole thing you will ever find another like it.\It was probably commissioned and made for someone. Maybe a one of a kind and unfortunately you only have half of the artifact.
Nice find nonetheless but I think you should enjoy your find its a nice handmade section of an artifact and one of a kind.
Have enjoyed the speculation and everyones desire to help you. The size does not fit for a cupola or roof cap.
Thanks and keep the finds coming.
HH
TnMountains

Sorry, I don't know what frame setting is. You'll have to enlighten me.

TnMountains,I would have totally agreed with the lamp picture you sent earlier but this thing is heavy. In your picture you can see a dent in the top and it leads me to believe that this is very thin material. I you were to put this on top of the lantern you have the whole thing would topple over at the least provicatio. For those in Texas with me the proper phrase is "tump over". Even the lamps on the Spanish gallions look flimsy. I could be wrong. It would be a new experience for me but I could be.
Mitch

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Mitch ~


...I thought I would also show some examples of bronze and copper.Your new
photos have opened up a whole new area for me not previously searched. In
the past I kept searching by what I thought it "was" rather than what it was
"made of." Thus a whole new search mode when I use words such as "Antique
Bronze," - "Hand Forged Brass," Victorian Copper, etc. I'm finding all kinds of
stuff that I hadn't even thought of before, and it appears that I have just
scratched the surface.
Bob

P.S. Are you sure it's brass?
(Knowing the answer to this would significantly reduce the search options).

LOL Bob. You are acting as if you just learned the basic difference between copper and brass. Ill presume you have posted these pics for the few guests that dont know. Nice pictures showing the difference.

Brass is any alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties. In comparison, bronze is principally an alloy of copper and tin. Despite this distinction some types of brasses are called bronzes and vice-versa.

Generally speaking, brass is more yellow in appearance and bronze is more red.

The rivets appear to be copper. They look like the solid one piece type. (first pic) They are not the 2 piece type (second pic) Rivets have been used since the middle ages so I dont know if this helps.

The rivets seem to be hammered on the outside (3rd pic) Usually the good side of the rivet is facing out so I think that means it was hand hammered as opposed to using a rivet tool. I guess it was too hard to hammer underneath.

BTW Bob "antique bronze" or "antique brass" are usually terms used to describe modern "antique looking" metal.

 

[[email protected]]

I've wanted to reply to this thread a few times but chose not to because I don't have anything to offer other than my opinion. Looking at the decorative rivets/lugs, it totally reminds me of what I find associated with late 1700's kettle lugs or gun furniture. I'm not saying that's what it is, but it looks much older than some of the "theories" that are suggested and IMO it is older than the Victorian period.
In all my years of relic hunting, I would wager that this is at least from the early 1800's.
Just my two cents.
Dave.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Mitch ~

Please bare with me for a moment, as I am going out on a bit of a limb here. But I will make every attempt to present this in as intelligent a fashion as I possibly can.

But first I want to thank you again for the new photos. Because of them it put me into a whole new search mode, which helped me find the following link that I hope will be of interest to you as well as others. And please note I tried to post a descent image of the item I found, but the site would not let me. So it will require a little effort on your part to properly pull it up. The site is called GoAntiques.com, and deals with a wide variety of various antiques, all of which are for sale.

Once you link to it, go to the "Browse Catagories" on the left and click on "Lighting Devices." The item in question is currently the seventh one down with a small image of a chandelier under the title, "Hand Forged Antique Iron Chandelier From the 19th Century." Priced at $4,600.00. After you select this particular page, go to just below the image to enlarge it. Now zoom in on it at, say 400%. What I would like you to examine is the ceiling cowl/ornament, and notice where there are chains coming out of what I'm fairly certain are holes. They may have some kind of eylet or other feature where the chains attach, but of this I am not certain. Also notice at the very top of the photo where it "appears" the chains attach to the ceiling. Now imagine your item as this ceiling ornament, with six chains fanning out and attaching to the circular ring where the candles would have gone.

I'm no expert on metallurgy, nor am I an archeologist. Thus I cannot attest to the metal composition or age of your item. But from what I see in the image, there is a distinct possibility that this may very well be similar to your find. We already know that some of these old chandeliers were quite large, and that various places used them, including churches and missions.

I am personally excited about this, as this is the very first image I have come across that might intelligently explain the holes. But I will offically go on record and say this is not definitive proof, but that I truly believe it merits additional research.

I apologize to all that this came out as such a long discourse, and hope you won't hold it against me. Thanks.

Respectfully,

Bob

http://www.goantiques.com/

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bobs chandelier:

http://www.goantiques.com/detail,hand-forged-antique,2221458.html

http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,2221458.html#

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Question for Mitch:

Are there heads on the undersides of those rivets or are they hammered on both sides?

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Thanks a million BigCy ~

I tried and tested that very thing earlier, but for some reason it failed to work for me.

I also wish to mention again this is not a positive ID. And I fully want to acknowledge those who suggested chandelier earlier. But this is the first actual image I've seen with the chain through the holes theory.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I also wish to add again this is not a positive ID. And I fully want to acknowledge those who suggeated chandelier earlier. But this is the first actual image I've seen with the chain/hole theory.

SBB

If the chandelier uses chains, you dont need the center hole.

 

[Bramblefind]

Shield Boss?

http://www.armadilloarmory.com/hxshield.htm

The shield boss was usually conical, with a wide flange, secured to the shield by 5 rivets. They often had a small section of vertical or concave wall, and the boss is often tipped with a button which can sometimes be elaborately decorated with a silver or bronze plaque. Strangely, the hemispherical boss which was so common on the continent seems to have been almost entirely absent in England at this time. It is possible that a few of the poorest warrior's shields did not have a boss as this type are known on the continent, but are extremely rare.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I was wondering if it could be armor of some kind.



I resized the skirt pic where it may have been riveted to something larger.

The holes must be drilled. The left hole is centered but the right one is way off center. That tells me it wasnt cast this way.

I just noticed something. Besides the skirt, is this all one piece or is this a very tight fit and the seperation hidden by dirt? It doesnt look like it goes all the way to the edge.