broke arrow points

larson1951 · Mar 4, 2014

a few weeks ago john gives me some coffee cans of scrapers and some that were full of mostly broke points or blades now this might be boring to some of you so you can always ignore otoh i am going to post two images of mandan arrow points the north dakota historical dept did an extreme and thorough excavation about the 'scattered village' which lies underneath eastern mandan, north dakota a survey and tally was done on the broke arrow points found it was their determination that 56% of the broke points found were broken during the manufacturing process (by the notch area) the remaining 44% were broke due to impact fractures in conclusion here are two images that illustrate and back this study i hope you can let me know if this has been of any interest to you

broke during the manufacturing process

broke from impact fracture

mamabear · Mar 4, 2014

If that was all I ever found in my lifetime, I'd be happy. Those are amazing! How much snow ya got?

kansa54 · Mar 4, 2014

Interesting stuff Larson. I wonder why some of the points that were broke while notching also have broken tips? I'd be curious to know, how much research has been done by archeologists, personally shooting stone points and than studying the impact fractures. I once did a primitive archer demo for some archeologists and shot several stone tipped arrows through plywood with interesting results.
Thanks for sharing. You always have interesting posts.

larson1951 · Mar 4, 2014

mamabear said:
If that was all I ever found in my lifetime, I'd be happy. Those are amazing! How much snow ya got?

we don't have much snow maybe 4 inches
but it just started snowing like crazy an hour ago.....gotta have windshield wipers on just to see when i drive

but is has been below zero for a few months already.....oh well that super cold is what makes me so dang tough haha

deadeye 22250 · Mar 4, 2014

To bad they were broke. The ones that were broke knapping them out, don't look like notch was to narrow to cause it to break, from not having enough room for their notching tool. They all look like they would have been nice points.

larson1951 · Mar 4, 2014

kansa54 said:
Interesting stuff Larson. I wonder why some of the points that were broke while notching also have broken tips? I'd be curious to know, how much research has been done by archeologists, personally shooting stone points and than studying the impact fractures. I once did a primitive archer demo for some archeologists and shot several stone tipped arrows through plywood with interesting results. Thanks for sharing. You always have interesting posts.

could be a ton of reasons for broke notch and tip
i can envision a lady sitting and making points all afternoon and just finishing a nice agate jaw notch point and the notch breaks....
so she says #&*^%!!! and takes her percussion flaker and breaks the tip off and starts making another

who knows?

i am sayin' that i think the study is generally correct but by no means perfect in every case

larson1951 · Mar 4, 2014

deadeye 22250 said:
To bad they were broke. The ones that were broke knapping them out, don't look like notch was to narrow to cause it to break, from not having enough room for their notching tool. They all look like they would have been nice points.

i agree
the supply of lithic material in north and south dakota along with montana is prolific

larson1951

Dirt fishing Wolf · Mar 4, 2014

Thanks for sharing. I'm trilled to find or look at either. The hunt to find and hold a tool from 100's - 1000's of years ago is an addiction I caught only a few years ago and still keeps me looking.

mamabear · Mar 4, 2014

larson1951 said:
i agree the supply of lithic material in north and south dakota along with montana is prolific larson1951

Ha! prolific lithic!

larson1951 · Mar 4, 2014

mamabear said:
Ha! prolific lithic!

sounds like i need to get me guitar and write a song!

'the prolific lithic blues' haha you funny mama!

kansa54 · Mar 4, 2014

Here's an arrowhead that broke at the hafting. Can't believe the barbs stayed intact.

kansa54 · Mar 4, 2014

I don't know if it broke while on the arrow shaft or when it was being notched. If it was while it was being notched, he was probably on his last pressure flake. Been there done that... and it sure ticks you off.

old digger · Mar 4, 2014

Those are cool! Looks like you could keep Dr. Gomer busy for quite a while if it was affordable, and you could add quite a few more to the display case. :thumbsup:

monsterrack · Mar 4, 2014

The points that were broken after knapping you will notice the most of them are broken almost in half, that is from the impact to the tip a shock wave goes through the point and it is to strong for the stone . If you strike a point are a preform on the end while knapping with any force and it is not braced well for support it will snap in half. The other points from what I can tell from the photos, snapped due to wrong support. Once you have a point that thin and you press down to take off a flake , you will put pressure on the ears (for sure ones that long) or tip and they will snap, sometimes it's just the shock wave going through the stone from taking a flake off and it will hurt your feelings, but you learn just to grab another stone and go back to work. You got to break a lot of rock to learn to make a point and you still will snap them.

painterx7 · Mar 4, 2014

Those are nice and very interesting Steve thanks for posting !!!

larson1951 · Mar 5, 2014

kansa54 said:
View attachment 954598 Here's an arrowhead that broke at the hafting. Can't believe the barbs stayed intact.

kansa54 said:
I don't know if it broke while on the arrow shaft or when it was being notched. If it was while it was being notched, he was probably on his last pressure flake. Been there done that... and it sure ticks you off.

old digger said:
Those are cool! Looks like you could keep Dr. Gomer busy for quite a while if it was affordable, and you could add quite a few more to the display case.

monsterrack said:
The points that were broken after knapping you will notice the most of them are broken almost in half, that is from the impact to the tip a shock wave goes through the point and it is to strong for the stone . If you strike a point are a preform on the end while knapping with any force and it is not braced well for support it will snap in half. The other points from what I can tell from the photos, snapped due to wrong support. Once you have a point that thin and you press down to take off a flake , you will put pressure on the ears (for sure ones that long) or tip and they will snap, sometimes it's just the shock wave going through the stone from taking a flake off and it will hurt your feelings, but you learn just to grab another stone and go back to work. You got to break a lot of rock to learn to make a point and you still will snap them.

painterx7 said:
Those are nice and very interesting Steve thanks for posting !!!

hey thanks

i am learning something here
i don't know how to knap so what monster and kansa say here makes a lot of sense to me

much appreciated....maybe someday i can learn

larson1951

1320 · Mar 5, 2014

IMO, many of the tools classified as manufacturing breaks are in fact usage breaks. If you lean on a hafted tool too hard, generally the notch area will be the first to go, after all, it is the weakest link. Always interesting to look and study brokes, great post.

larson1951 · Mar 5, 2014

hey hey 1320
thank you much for your opinion
the percentage figures i used were taken from an extensive report and a very long thorough dig in the city of mandan, ND
this was done only a few blocks east of where the late Twitko lived and only discovered when the street was being resurfaced
now with this much appreciated feed back i just gotta say that i am glad to have started this thread
after all i didn't even think i was gonna get a response to a post with a bunch of brokes

larson1951

kansa54 · Mar 5, 2014

This is a calf creek style pt. that I made. Had it finished but I decided it needed one more flake removed to even up the notches. My notching tool touched the inside of it and snapped the base off but left the ears attached. I would guess that over 90% of the time it will be the ears that break. I have broke the ears off a lot of them but only once the base.
This is a similar break as the old point I posted earlier. Although it broke straight across but it still left the barbs attached.

kansa54 · Mar 5, 2014

1320 said:
IMO, many of the tools classified as manufacturing breaks are in fact usage breaks. If you lean on a hafted tool too hard, generally the notch area will be the first to go, after all, it is the weakest link. Always interesting to look and study brokes, great post.

I have broke a lot of side notched arrow pts. while notching and they all had similar breaks as the ones shown as manufacturing breaks. I agree though that a hafted pt. could also break in a similar fashion.