Bullet help.

Garabaldi · Jan 18, 2010

I thought this was a musket bullet, civil war era, but someone said it is a "modern black powder bullet". :icon_scratch:

I dug it in thick grey mud. I have been finding alod coins here. I had found a shiled nickle and with this bullet today I found an 1882 IH Penny.

Breezie · Jan 18, 2010

Gallager bullet, perhaps .51, but I'm not the bullet expert, so I'm sure you'll get an ID. Nice finds G! Breezie

DirtyMike · Jan 18, 2010

I am almost certain this is a reproduction bullet. I helped my brother n law make some a few weeks back. He shoots in the NSSA shoots. They use reproduction Civil War weapons in competition shooting. They still make there own ammo for the shoots. I have found these before. I have attached a picture of one that we made next to a period one I dug.

Garabaldi · Jan 18, 2010

With all due respect, I must disagree with you. The replica bullet you have shown looks much different than mine. I realize anything is possible, however the area I am prospecting is very historical. There is a thick gooey mud that artifacts get stuck in. I have found a couple of musket balls that look the same as the musket bullet. I will show you a couple of busket balls that were dug on land in the same area apposed to the water. I also dug a musket bullet in the water that was very rocky. So the same area, one musket bullet in a rocky water terrain and the other in a thick grey clay mud terrain. The one thing throwing me off is the flat bottom. Did they make musket bullets with flat bottoms? Also I have dug a number of Civil War artifacts. It was a training camp.

kyphote · Jan 18, 2010

Garabaldi said:
With all due respect, I must disagree with you. The replica bullet you have shown looks much different than mine. I realize anything is possible, however the area I am prospecting is very historical. There is a thick gooey mud that artifacts get stuck in. I have found a couple of musket balls that look the same as the musket bullet. I will show you a couple of busket balls that were dug on land in the same area apposed to the water. I also dug a musket bullet in the water that was very rocky. So the same area, one musket bullet in a rocky water terrain and the other in a thick grey clay mud terrain. The one thing throwing me off is the flat bottom. Did they make musket bullets with flat bottoms? Also I have dug a number of Civil War artifacts. It was a training camp.

There is no record of a flat bottomed three groove bullet in McKee & Mason's "Civil War Projectiles II." I would have to assume a repro as well.

vayank54 · Jan 18, 2010

I think your bullet could be a repro because of the rings. You can tell by the space between the rings that it was machine made. They had machine lathed bullets in the civil war but the space between the rings on your bullet is deeper than on any civil war bullets I've seen. There were 3 ringers with flat bases. As far as I know the only 3 ringers with a flat base were Merrill Carbines. They had narrower rings that were closer together. I have dug bullets in swampy areas that look like there were made yesterday so th is is a hard call but I really think that one is a repro. If it is good it's possible it could be a Williams cleaner with the cleaner end cut off but again the space between the rings look to deep. Hang onto it and show it around though. Hopefully someone will be able to say 100%

S IL THer · Jan 18, 2010

Garabaldi, thought you might like a side by side comparrison..................

cwdigger · Jan 18, 2010

I also agree it is a reproduction bullet, b/c of it color and rings 99% of all minnie balls found are recovered with either a white patina or a brownish patina. I will also say that when these bullets where molded they were grey in color as is all lead. I think maybe someone that shoots in the NSSA made it or possibly a re-enactor. But I dont believe its original.

Did you find the other grey round balls there as well? Any NSSA shooting gone on there?

Garabaldi · Jan 18, 2010

what is the NSSA? The musket balls were dug in a different area, about a half mile away, but in the same type mud. It is a very historical area. Battles took place in the American Rev war. War if 1812 and civil war training camps. These were dug way down about 10" in mud in the ocean.

vayank54 · Jan 18, 2010

NSSA North South Skirmish Association. They hold shoots across the country and shoot targets with civil war style weapons including cannons

Garabaldi · Jan 18, 2010

Well if the NSSA was putting on a reenactment, they would have been in the ocean. Also the area I dug it, there would have been no place for people to watch. I ask all of you a question: if this same bullet had the look of a bullet that was dug on land at a CW camp would you all have the same opinion? I am convinced that the thick grey mucky mud has preserved these round balls and musket bullet. This clay type mud will make your shoe fall off. Just a thought. :icon_thumleft:

vayank54 · Jan 18, 2010

I've dug bullets in muddy areas in VA that have come out looking new like that. The reason I think it is modern is because of the rings. I've never seen a civil war bullet with grooves that wide and deep between the rings. At one time I had over 300 types of civil war bullets and still didn't have all the varients. I would keep the bullet and show it around though. Maybe take it to a gun shop that deals in black powder guns. If they have any civil war relic shows in your area show it to people there. The answer to your question and not trying to be smart and no offense to you, but if I were to dig that bullet in a camp in my area. I would think it was a modern black powder bullet that was shot by a hunter. Still have it checked out. I've been wrong once or twice in my life. :laughing7:

By the way if you find out I am wrong let me know. I'm always willing to learn.

IronSpike · Jan 19, 2010

Condition is amazing.

Tag :icon_thumright:

Garabaldi · Jan 19, 2010

Looks like the base is 13MM.

l.cutler · Jan 19, 2010

I agree on the Spencer as a possibility, could also be a Merrill carbine.

Garabaldi · Jan 19, 2010

l.cutler said:
I agree on the Spencer as a possibility, could also be a Merrill carbine.

Is a Spencer and Merill carbine CW era?

Garabaldi · Jan 19, 2010

I am nto very optomistic that this one is ever going to be solved. :icon_scratch:

Interesting debate non the less. :icon_thumleft:

vayank54 · Jan 19, 2010

It definitely is not a Spencer. It is closer to a Merrill but not quite the same. The Spencer did not have a bottom ring. It was narrower at the bottom and the 2 ring stuck out of the casing. On a Merrill the rings are not as wide as on yours. I could be some variant of that though

vayank54 · Jan 20, 2010

This is a hard one and that is why I think it should be taken to someone who deals with modern black powder and a relic show where you can get more than one opinion. Someone who deals with modern black powder guns would be able to tell you if they make a bullet like that now and at a show you have plenty of people who know bullets. As far as the depth the bullet was fired so it could have penetrated the ground that deep or simply the weight of the bullet caused it to sink. I've dug civil war bullets less than and inch deep to over a foot. I've also found modern bullets at the same depths. There is a chance it is a good bullet but I think it will probably have to be seen in person to find out for sure.

l.cutler · Jan 20, 2010

Yes, it needs to be looked at to be sure. I don't think it is a modern muzzle loading bullet. I have been shooting black powder and casting my own bullets for over 30 years and never saw one like this. A muzzleloading rifle bullet has to be able to be loaded down the bore but must engage the rifling. This is accomplished in one of three ways. An undersized bullet with something covering it to engage the rifling, patched round ball, paper patched bullet, or todays saboted bullets. The second is an undersized expanding bullet eg., the hollow based minie that expands upon firing. The third is a solid based bullet that is oversized, forced down the barrel engaging the rifling upon loading. The solid type bullet generally has raised rings to engage the rifling with grease grooves in between. The bullet here does not have raised rings, it would have to be oversized and forced down the bore. This would be virtually impossible to do with a ramrod. The rifling on the bullet is also very shallow, not like the grooves in a modern muzzleloading barrel. The grooves in a cartridge gun are much shallower, the bullet being oversized and forced through, they do not need to be deep to engage the rifling.