Bullet help.

[Garabaldi]

I thought this was a musket bullet, civil war era, but someone said it is a "modern black powder bullet".
I dug it in thick grey mud. I have been finding alod coins here. I had found a shiled nickle and with this bullet today I found an 1882 IH Penny.

 

[vayank54]

Arid- zone-A -seeker , Which bullet do you mean. I can tell you without a doubt neither one is a Spencer.

Garabaldi The one with the deep cavity in the base is called a Harpers Ferry Pistol Carbine it had a paper cartridge and was used in .58 muzzle loading rifles.
Even though they are called Harper Ferry Pistol Carbine bullets I don't think they had any connection to the gun itself.
They are civil war. I have dug many in union camps. Your bullet does not appear to have been fired.

 

[Garabaldi]

Thank you vayank. I have posted the original bullet in this post on a CW web site hoping we get more insite on the bullet in question.
The story goes on folks.

 

[l.cutler]

Vayank, I have dug around and found a Spencer cartridge, the bullet exposed outside of the casing is an exact match for this one, though I don't know what is inside the casing. Could there be other variations possibly from a different manufacturer?

 

[vayank54]

A spencer only has 2 rings and the cartridge comes up to the rings. There are several variation of the rings but all listed types have 2 rings Here are pics without and with the cartridge.

 

[vayank54]

Thank you vayank. I have posted the original bullet in this post on a CW web site hoping we get more insite on the bullet in question.
The story goes on folks.

You're welcome. Did you post the bullet on Treasurespot? There are some know knowledgable people on there.
Let us know what they say.

 

[Garabaldi]

Thank you vayank. I have posted the original bullet in this post on a CW web site hoping we get more insite on the bullet in question.
The story goes on folks.

You're welcome. Did you post the bullet on Treasurespot? There are some know knowledgable people on there.
Let us know what they say.

Yes I did and here is a response from one person,
(Jim T) "It's hard to tell the measurements using centimeters but this appaers to me to be a fired Spencer bullet. I agree that the lack of patina is okay in this case if it came out of the muck. Looks cool."
(me) "Thank you Jim T. This is my first post. Would it help if I post images using inches?"
(Jim T.) "Yes, ...caliber is measured in inches. But using the cm that are shown in your pics, I still stand by my Spencer ID... approx. .52 caliber and just under an inch long. The top two "lines" are grooves, the bottom one is where the cartridge case was crimped to the bullet. "

 

[vayank54]

Does that bullet actually have a bottom ring or does it just look like it in the pic? If it has no bottom ring then I will have to apologize to everyone and agree it is a Spencer. If it has no bottom ring then it's not a Spencer unless it is an unlisted type

 

[Garabaldi]

I think the grey gooey mud conditions sound like a good environment for a contender to be anaerobic. I have seen Civil War bullets also that come out without the white patina.

I am going to guess it is a .54 or .56 caliber Spencer bullet. The rings on the Spencer bullets will be sharper because they were contained within a cartridge casing, and therefore machine made or cast under factory conditions and not cast in the field.

You will also notice that the bottom ring is not as pronounced as the top two because it served for crimping the cartridge casing to the bullet.

Can you measure the diameter of the base to see if it fits either of these calibers?

This is just my guess.

Not sure vayank, but Jim T seems to think the bottom groove was used to crimp the cartridge case to. He also suggest its been fired. I have quoted plehbah, seems he had suggested this a while back.

 

[vayank54]

You can see in the pics of the Spencer I posted that it doesn't have a bottom ring and both rings are above the casing and not in the casing as some have suggested. I wish I could tell you something definite on your bullet. I kind of doubt it can be properly Id'd online the way things look.

 

[Arid-Zone-A-seeker]

Your right, its not a spencer.
Just for you-all's pleasure,,,,,, Diameter first. Appox. Weight next.
Minie Balls
.542 425 gr
.575 475 g
.577 460 g
.694 750 g
Sharps
.52 cal .535 415 g
.54 cal .544 475 g and .544 475 g w/ring tail
.54 ca .548 415 g
Burnside
.54 cal .558 360 g
Smith
.52 cal .515 370 g
.52 cal .522 365 g hollow base
Halls, Gallager, Green, Gibbs, Jenks,
.54 cal .535 300 g different grease groves.
Jenks-Merrill
.54 cal .539 310 g
Springfield cartridge arms
.45-70 cal .457 385 g and 405 g, 475 g
.50-70 cal .515 425 g and .520 512 g paper cart.
Maynard
.50 cal .517 357 g
Enfield
.577 cal .575 530 g hollow base 552 g w/wedge
Whitworth
hexagonal .448 580 g these were the sniper rifles
Most CSA imports
.570 480 g and .575 530 g

This is the short list. Thanks for time.

 

[vayank54]

Hey G
Here is the pic of the sharps from the supplement to McKee's & Mason's book. I thought it was the same as your's but after looking at the post again I see the nose is different.

 

[vayank54]

There are several civil war solid base 3 ringers. The sharps I posted, the Gallager carbine and Merril carbine. All these are carbine bullets. I can't of any solid base 3 ring infantry bullets. I'm sure there are more examples that I can't think of or just plain don't know about

 

[Arid-Zone-A-seeker]

I think we are looking at a Merrill .54Cal carbine. The statement that it is about 13 mm is close to the dia of a Merrill at .555 ,,,
12.7 mm is .500, 14 mm is .551, and 15 mm is .590 ,,,
Remember always that muzzle loader bullets are smaller dia. than the bores of the rifle. If they weren't you would have to hammer them to start them and seat them on the powder. And seat them you must, if you do not then you have a obstruction rather than a projectile.
Cartridge arms bullets are always larger dia. than the bores. Better gas seal, better accuracy.

There is one case bullet that used an under sized Minnie ball, hollow base that depended on expanding gasses to upset the base so as to grip the rifling, and seal the bore. That is the .577 snider a British rifle. These are still common today but the case changed a bit in the 1900s.

Arid.

 

[vayank54]

I had mentioned earlier that it was similar to a Merril but not quite the same. I was thinking it could be an unlisted variant. People have found a few other bullets that are close since then. This is a hard one.

 

[Garabaldi]

Were Merills used during the CW?

 

[vayank54]

Were Merills used during the CW?

Yep they were.
I thought I had posted a pic of a Merrill but if not I had this pic handy. The 2 bullets on the left are Smith Carbines the one on the right is a Merrill