Bullet help.

[Garabaldi]

I thought this was a musket bullet, civil war era, but someone said it is a "modern black powder bullet".
I dug it in thick grey mud. I have been finding alod coins here. I had found a shiled nickle and with this bullet today I found an 1882 IH Penny.

 

[dick99344]

Yes, it needs to be looked at to be sure. I don't think it is a modern muzzle loading bullet. I have been shooting black powder and casting my own bullets for over 30 years and never saw one like this. A muzzleloading rifle bullet has to be able to be loaded down the bore but must engage the rifling. This is accomplished in one of three ways. An undersized bullet with something covering it to engage the rifling, patched round ball, paper patched bullet, or todays saboted bullets. The second is an undersized expanding bullet eg., the hollow based minie that expands upon firing. The third is a solid based bullet that is oversized, forced down the barrel engaging the rifling upon loading. The solid type bullet generally has raised rings to engage the rifling with grease grooves in between. The bullet here does not have raised rings, it would have to be oversized and forced down the bore. This would be virtually impossible to do with a ramrod. The rifling on the bullet is also very shallow, not like the grooves in a modern muzzleloading barrel. The grooves in a cartridge gun are much shallower, the bullet being oversized and forced through, they do not need to be deep to engage the rifling.

Good information. For those that don't cast bullets, I cast two types of solid based conicals for my Hawkin rifle. A maxi ball penetrator, and a maxi ball hollow point at 430 grains. They do not look anything like that pictured. My molds were made by Thompson Center Arms. These molds cast a bullet with a very slight taper from top to bottom. This taper allows for easy insertion into the muzzle just far enough so that a short starter can be used to get the bullet into the muzzle a distance of a few inches, a ram rod can be used from there once the bullet engraves the rifling. I can easily get a 1 to 1 1/2 inch 3 shot group at 75 yards off the bench. These bullets being tapered, they do not require raised rings but do require the use of a short starter. Perhaps if the bullet was measured for any taper from top to bottom, this might give a clue as to it being modern or not. However I have never seen a modern solid based bullet with a nose shaped like that pictured. If a short starter was used, there should be a small slight circle shaped indentation cut around the nose of the bullet different from what a ram rod would make. I do not think it is modern. MHO-HH

 

[Garabaldi]

Wow, there are some experts on bullets on here. I do not know much about bullets, but have dug a few. The reasons why when I dug this It didn't even cross my mind that it wasn't from the CW era.
#1) The area I dug it has produced many CW era artifacts. I also dug an 1882 IH penny the same day.
#2) I have dug a couple of round balls that looked the same that had come out of the same type thick mud not far from the area I dug this bullet.
#3) I dug this about 10" down in thick grey muck. I actually grabbed a ball of muck and swung it over the coil to find it encased in it.
#4) I found it in a CW training area.
I know these reasons are not as technical as the three previous posts, but there is something to be said about the history of an area, previous finds in the area and depth found.
I am greatfull for all the posts and interest to this post. Thank you all.

 

[vayank54]

I hope you are able to get a positive ID on the bullet and please let us know if you do. I really don't know much about the modern black powder bullets but do know civil war bullets pretty well and am always happy to learn something new.

 

[Breezie]

Originally I suggested it might be a solid base .51 Gallager bullet. Here is a website(about 3/4 down the page) with a pic that is very similiar to G's bullet.
http://www.corinthcivilwarrelics.com/bullets.html
What's your thoughts on that one?
Breezie

 

[vayank54]

Good job Breezie. That could be it. I've handled 10's of thousands of civil war bullets and never seen one like that.

 

[BioProfessor]

Breezie, could you post a larger image. Those of us with some good imaging software can do an overlay or do some measurements/ratios of the grooves. It would also be nice if the crud could be removed from the bullet in question. There is a lot of information to be gained in the shape and spacing of the grooves. Clean grooves would really help. It also may help understand the age. If the crud comes right out, it is not the lead based crust that occur over time and will not come out easily. A wooden toothpick may clean it right out.

Daryl

 

[Breezie]

Breezie, could you post a larger image. Those of us with some good imaging software can do an overlay or do some measurements/ratios of the grooves. It would also be nice if the crud could be removed from the bullet in question. There is a lot of information to be gained in the shape and spacing of the grooves. Clean grooves would really help. It also may help understand the age. If the crud comes right out, it is not the lead based crust that occur over time and will not come out easily. A wooden toothpick may clean it right out.

Daryl

Daryl,
The pic I posted is from the website, http://www.corinthcivilwarrelics.com/bullets.html and not one of my personal bullets; sorry, Breezie

 

[vayank54]

One reason this is such a hard call, besides the fact that evidently no one has seen one like this before, is that it was dug in wet area in the mud. I've dug civil war bullets in swampy areas that came out looking like they were made yesterday so I don't think the fact that it has no oxidation helps any.

 

[BioProfessor]

Not much information in the file. Here is all there is and it's pushing it.

Daryl

 

[BioProfessor]

I think it is a "close but no cigar." The nose is not the same shape. Just my 2 cents.

Daryl

 

[Garabaldi]

Cleaned the sand.

 

[vayank54]

Ok guys So far everyone has been looking at this as a black powder bullet. Is it possible it isn't black powder at all?

 

[BioProfessor]

Possible but there are no "crimp" lines that are typical of a bullet affixed to a cartridge. Not sure how all the very early - Spencer's etc. - looked though.

Daryl

 

[vayank54]

The civil war bullets didn't have crimps. I'm not sure when they start putting them on bullets. On the Spencers the casing didn't cover the rings but was below them.

 

[Breezie]

Ok guys So far everyone has been looking at this as a black powder bullet. Is it possible it isn't black powder at all?

Well, I guess I'm the odd-ball one in the group, and am sticking with it being a CW .51 Gallager, but am adding it is a "Variant" since the top is slighly rounded. Breezie

 

[vayank54]

Breezie, why do you have to be so ornery?

 

[Breezie]

Breezie, why do you have to be so ornery?

Hahahhaaaaaaaaaahahaha, now that was tooooo funny! Is that what men call 'disagreeing' and having another opinion? Breezie

 

[vayank54]

Hahahhaaaaaaaaaahahaha, now that was tooooo funny! Is that what men call 'disagreeing' and having another opinion? Breezie
[/quote]
Only if it's a woman that's disagreeing with us. We still love ya we just think you are wrong.

 

[Breezie]

author=vayank54 Only if it's a woman that's disagreeing with us. We still love ya we just think you are wrong.

Mmm, I figured as much I'm still sticking until someone comes up with a pic or info that is a closer match. Touché, Moi

 

[vayank54]

I'm not saying it's not civil war. There is a good chance it is. I'm just asking if it's possible it isn't black powder as I don't know the more modern ammo very well. Breezie. I'm proud of you for sticking to you guns.