Catlinite pipe with lizard and ???

[intensecrasher]

This is an Iowa find with a really cool lizard on one side. The other side has a series of connected dots. Could this represent a constellation? Does anyone have any thought on what it could be?

 

[GatorBoy]

My first question would be what is the story to go with this piece? does it have any provenance?

 

[intensecrasher]

My first question would be what is the story to go with this piece? does it have any provenance?

I found this pipe in Northwest Iowa back in the 1980s. It comes from an Ioway culture site.

 

[unclemac]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cygnus_(constellation)

this is a pretty bright and easy to spot constellation in the northern skies....

 

[unclemac]

...and perhaps in the culture it was made in....this constellation represented a lizard...which seems way reasonable to me given the imagery on the other side.

 

[newnan man]

I saw a Catlinite pipe from a W.VA. site that had swastikas on it. I'm sure the Native Americans were not Nazis but it was pretty neat. Nice pipe.

 

[intensecrasher]

...and perhaps in the culture it was made in....this constellation represented a lizard...which seems way reasonable to me given the imagery on the other side.

Very well could be. Thank you for posting!

 

[intensecrasher]

Like Unclemac said....this could explain it. If you count the star that is just below the line under the cross, the pipe would have the same amount of stars as the constellation.

 

[larson1951]

thing is we may never know what but i say no matter what a find like that is so ferociously cool that is the main thing........
especially when you yourself found it!

if that was a fresh find i would say banner all the way
i see you have california as your home base now....did you come from iowa way?

anyhow thank you for posting my friend

 

[intensecrasher]

I grew up in Iowa and have hunted there for many years with my grandfather and two brothers. We have an extensive collection and were supposed to be published in "Who's Who in Indian Relics 6" But the guy never showed up... I spent some time in the military and ended up in California. I go back home every summer for a few weeks and do nothing but hunt. Maybe someday I will end up back in Iowa or at least have the financial ability to live there from Spring to fall

thing is we may never know what but i say no matter what a find like that is so ferociously cool that is the main thing........
especially when you yourself found it!

if that was a fresh find i would say banner all the way
i see you have california as your home base now....did you come from iowa way?

anyhow thank you for posting my friend

 

[Charl]

I saw a Catlinite pipe from a W.VA. site that had swastikas on it. I'm sure the Native Americans were not Nazis but it was pretty neat. Nice pipe.

And it's a symbol found worldwide. In Ancient Greece, in the Indus civilization, and it's found on the pottery and petroglyphs of the Southwest. In the Book of the Hopi, by Frank Waters, the elders he spoke with told him it was their migration symbol, and when you found a partial swastika petroglyph at a Cliff dwelling site, it indicated the clan in question had completed that percentage of the migration plan set out for them by the creator, but had not yet finished the migration cycle expressed in the 4 arms or directions of the swatstika.

Beautiful pipe, intensecrasher.

 

[unclemac]

I grew up in Iowa and have hunted there for many years with my grandfather and two brothers. We have an extensive collection and were supposed to be published in "Who's Who in Indian Relics 6" But the guy never showed up... I spent some time in the military and ended up in California. I go back home every summer for a few weeks and do nothing but hunt. Maybe someday I will end up back in Iowa or at least have the financial ability to live there from Spring to fall

my uncle always told me to marry a fat farm girl from Iowa and grow hogs and corn....him being a farmer from Illinois and land getting too dam expensive.

 

[unclemac]

look at how the lizards tail also curves...an ethnographer would jump at the chance to claim that constellation as a lizard....in fact i will bet money that you would be very welcome to send off your pictures to the state univ. with just such a claim. I have a feeling that your pipe is pretty significant.

 

[old digger]

Cool Find!

 

[intensecrasher]

look at how the lizards tail also curves...an ethnographer would jump at the chance to claim that constellation as a lizard....in fact i will bet money that you would be very welcome to send off your pictures to the state univ. with just such a claim. I have a feeling that your pipe is pretty significant.

I also saw the same curvature between the tail and the constellation and always wondered if the two were somehow related. I don’t really have any experience with constellations and always assumed that it could be one but never followed up on it.

I would also like to point out that the lizards head and body are represented by small drilled indentations. There are also two small drilled indentations, one on the left side of the lizards head and one on the right side. They are very similar to the top indentations on the constellation side of the pipe but not quite the same.

I have been tempted to send pictures of several of my artifacts to the University of Iowa, but to be honest; I have hesitated because I am leery that the state could deem an artifact as too significant. I have some items that I will not even post pictures of here because they can be easily identified with an exact location and culture. These are all legal surface finds but the location has since been designated as a National Historic Landmark.

That being said, I would like to know more about this and other artifacts from the experts at the University....maybe I could send in pictures with provenance and tell the state I bought the piece from some guy in Iowa?

What are your thoughts?

 

[pickaway]

Man what a find congrats...

 

[unclemac]

I also saw the same curvature between the tail and the constellation and always wondered if the two were somehow related. I don’t really have any experience with constellations and always assumed that it could be one but never followed up on it.

I would also like to point out that the lizards head and body are represented by small drilled indentations. There are also two small drilled indentations, one on the left side of the lizards head and one on the right side. They are very similar to the top indentations on the constellation side of the pipe but not quite the same.

I have been tempted to send pictures of several of my artifacts to the University of Iowa, but to be honest; I have hesitated because I am leery that the state could deem an artifact as too significant. I have some items that I will not even post pictures of here because they can be easily identified with an exact location and culture. These are all legal surface finds but the location has since been designated as a National Historic Landmark.

That being said, I would like to know more about this and other artifacts from the experts at the University....maybe I could send in pictures with provenance and tell the state I bought the piece from some guy in Iowa?

What are your thoughts?

before you do anything you need to try and document the legality of your finds....where, when, how etc.

 

[intensecrasher]

before you do anything you need to try and document the legality of your finds....where, when, how etc.

I can document the legality of the pipe. The other items were found legally and to my knowledge were not associated with burials. However, the land owners that gave us permission to hunt in the area that is now a National Historic Landmark passed away years ago. There is no one to verify that the items were legally collected.

I'll have to think some more about sending in pictures of the pipe.

 

[Americus]

That is an amazing find!!!! Thanks for sharing.

 

[rock]

You just dont find that type of thing everyday, congrats