compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

I think, to make an informed decision, you have to also have to the bill that this bill is amending. The National and Community Service Act of 1990.

Personally, I have always thought that every American citizen should be in community service for 2 years (armed services, peace corps, whatever).

I did notice Kennedy's name on it (Teddy).


B



"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" John Fitzgerald Kennedy

 

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[ivan salis]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

big differance between the two * teddy in my view wasn't fit to clean jfks shoes.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Ivan,

No arguement on THAT from me. I just found it ironic, and it reminded me of JFK.

B

 

[lobsterman]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Ivan, you are 100 % correct in your opposition of these policies. and i agree with you completely.

just a few weeks ago, i read that our local high school was going to start a "requirement" for students "to volunteer" for community service in order to graduate, it didn't really go into what's, why's, where's or how's, but as soon as i read it, i new that it was wrong, and it directly goes against the principles this country was founded on.

now this is going to be a requirement at a high school (not the military or a college ), the kids will not have a choice, and regardless of there grades, if they do not submit to being "forced to volunteer" they will not graduate. that is about as unamerican as you can get !!!, i don't know how to state that any clearer. *i think some people on here need to read the constitution and the bill of rights and learn about what freedom and liberty means.

when i had read about these requirements, i immediately thought, if they had tried this when i was in high school, i know for a fact that none of the students would have submitted to being "forced to volunteer", and there would have been riots, sit-in's, or walk-outs, and i'd bet most of the parents would have been against it as well, and the parents would have been rioting or protesting it right along side of us.

now i have kids that will be attending that high school in a few years, and i figured i'd fight that battle when i came to it, and i would tell the school what they could do with those requirements, but now i'm thinking i should start a preemptive attack against these twisted policies, before people in town are manipulated into thinking that it is even remotely acceptable.

i can't even fathom why some people don't realize why this is wrong on soo many levels. i know some of you may roll your eye's at this, but it could almost be considered communistic policies.

i am all for willing volunteers, helping the cause of their choice, but being...." forced to volunteer " it sounds so rediculous, it is.... oxymoronic , ironic, idiotic, unconstitutional, unamerican, and yes... communist.

the fact that some folks are even considering this as an acceptable policy really scares me to think of our nation's future ( be afraid folks, be very afraid ).

 

[lobsterman]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

ask not what your country can do for you, ask what in the heck this country is doing to you.

communist china requires all citizens to submit to at least 2 years of millitary or gov. service, ( i can't believe that you even suggested that. i am ashamed for you. what country did you grow up in anyhow ? )

 

[ivan salis]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

lobsterman --you get it --you are seeing the grassroots level of socialism being planted ;

high school is mandatory *by law ---( unless you want to be a drop out with no fiscal future) so really in effect kids must attend it , and under those rules * then to graduate they must do "community service hours" as deemed suitible by whomever is in charge at the time -- thats what criminals are forced do * as "punishment"-- never mind your a 4.0 honors A student johnny -- you didn't spend 30 hours picking up trash like a crack addict does --so no diploma for you .-- so Johnny A student --you will "bend" and bow to the all powerful govt and do as your told if you want to get the diploma -- and you know you need it --so bow --bow now !!! ah thats good --now that we've taught you whos boss --you will be so much more "flexible" in the future.

frankly its govt break the will of protestors 101 -- if you stand up for your rights and say no --no diploma for you --trapped in the "under ranks" forever fiscally -- if you comply --heres your diploma --see its so much easier just to "give in and get along" -- this sort of moral corruption is the beginning of the end --sell out take the easy road --give in --do as your told --we know whats best for you --you don 't need to think , we'll do it for you. -- big brother is your freind (master)

fight the good fight ---go to the local school board threaten them with a class action lawsuit under the 13th amendment --no "forced" involuntary labor
--by denying their diploma's their being forced via coercion

 

[Eu_citzen]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendme

Ivan I must ask you; why are you so afraid of socialism?
Because it's a utopia like democracy? Because of propaganda?

Socialism is a nice idea, though don't confuse it with communism; two different things.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

once your forced to accept their "right" to make you "do" --compulsory volunteerism service-- then its just a matter of what "they" deem is worthy for you to do -- and its their choice then not yours--( ie their in charge of you or else) get my point , now?

EU --- I am opposed to "forced volunteerism" aka socialism since leans toward the communist "govt owns the people and is in charge of the people" mindset -- and away from the american "we the people "own" the govt and are in charge of it --- thus the honest "free choice" type volunteering - that I hold in respect .

now of course --the military if you should join "owns" you 24 /7/365 for the lenght of your "contract"--so volunteering there is more of a "joking" matter , since basically your actually being ordered to do it. -- and how about that lovely "stop loss" program-- "the backdoor draft" that forces military folks to stay in for a year "after" their "contracted tour of duty" they signed up for is legally done with --great stuff --huh? -- yep --"compulsory volunteerism" at its best -- which could easily get someone who by all rights has done their duty and filled their contract killed , now let it be your son or daughter killed or maimed for life due to that type of " forced volunteering" and see how you feel about it .

of course in college --depending upon your subject --there can be required --in feild / related -- "free" hands on type job work where you get " practical job experance in your feild iin exchange for work"-- that is not abnormal in my view.

 

[ivan salis]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

no only those who abide by our bill of rights and constitution count , in my view -- if thecurrent elected govt personel that were elected by the people (or people appointed by them) in error make policy or laws go against our rights --its up to "we the people" to point it out and make them correct their course of action . --to do less is to submit to a tyrant of a govt (since you then submit meekly to the govt running things --as they choose to--rather than with the proper "respect" for the rights of the people being governed) which is a weak and cowardly and in my veiw unamerican thing to do.

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

I spent my military time being "volun-TOLD" to go do things... LOL

I spent a lot of time in the military "volun-telling" others to get things done too.

Conservatives roll on volunteerism, it's been a conservative mainstay and the work is better for it!

When the new regime started talking "compulsory volunteerism" during the last election half the liberals who never volunteer got all excited and the conservatives who always volunteered got all pissy. Weird.

That's because nobody WANTS or NEEDS to be told when to volunteer and for what cause.

I understand you Ivan, I just don't think it's happened or is going to happen without a national uproar.

Everyone who's done ANY college or military service and almost every organized group EVER has volunteered all over the place. Name a society or group or church or school or organization that doesn't volunteer.

I do NOT agree with "NATIONAL" volunteerism - but I DO agree with community volunteerism.

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

sort of Reminds me of the End of Seinfeld
& The "Good Samaritan law"

 

[GPURS]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Well put Jim! Wish ya woulda said that,,,, oh about 40 posts back ! Gpurs...

 

[lobsterman]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Hi All,
i will give you a webpage that seems to sum it up quite well. and covers many of the aspects and concepts we've been discussing.....

www.democracyweb.org/consent/principles.php

i found this while doing a search for " withdraw consent to be goverened " , remember we are each soverign citizens, and as such we have the right to peacefully withdraw our consent to be governed,

i feel that as the resistance to these socialist policies grows, more and more true patriots will be coming out of the woodwork everyday, and yes we are the "we the people". and we will support and defend the constitution and the bill of rights to the bitter end.

Ivan, did you happen to notice that when your post was quoted, it was altered or edited, and that the word " unamerican" was removed. apparently some people will deny it is even happening, that is until the boot is on there own throat and not someone else's.

"forced volunteering" is the definition of.... servitude

 

[Montana Jim]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

Was there an original "event" or "example" that was the topic of this at first or was one googled after an example was asked for?

I agree we must all be wary and aware, but I'm not too sure "forced servitude" under the guise of "volunteerism" has happened - yet.

lobsterman - great information at that site you posted, but it's not supporting Ivan's claim really.

 

[21stTNCav]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

EU --- I am opposed to "forced volunteerism" aka socialism since leans toward the communist "govt owns the people and is in charge of the people" mindset -- and away from the american "we the people "own" the govt and are in charge of it --- thus the honest "free choice" type volunteering - that I hold in respect .

So....the "we the people" who did the research, and enacted these programs...they don't count? Only the "we the people" who oppose the programs opinions count?

When "we the people" who did the research, and enacted these programs ignore the founding document of our republic, trample on personal freedom guaranteed by our Constitution, and run roughshod over there fellow citizens, then yes they don't count. If exercising your rights takes the Rights of another then your actions cannot be ethical, moral, or good, although in our country if you find a sleazy judge, repsentive, Politician etc--- you may make it legal. If you endorse this "compulsory volunteerism" then you are endorsing the removal of rights guaranteed by our Constitution, in effect you are saying the Constitution does not matter. I understand that many of you may support community activism. Helping your fellow man is a highly regarded trait in any society. Any society that mandates that you help that fellow man regardless of what you may want to do is not a free society. How do you eat a elephant? One pieace at a time, one piece at a time. Jefferson warned of how we could slowly lose the rights so valiantly fought for by the founders of our country. Were their sacrifices in vain? Kruschev told us that America would fall without him lifting a finger. Was he right? We have so many other laws and activities that violate our Rights that this is no big deal? Who cares? The last bastion of true freedom is dying before our eyes and so many of us are blind, or in denial. Well, I am sorry to rant and I will step off the soap box. In closing it is my opinion that any exercising of a right where someone elses may be infringed is wrong and is not Guaranteed by the Constitution. It is why a ticket for exceeding the speed limit is ok. You endanger other people if you speed so speeding is not a protected right. "Compulsory volunteerism violates legal adults freedom of choice.
Cappy: Thank you for explaining about the article. Although your comment seems a little barbed, I appreciate the clarification. Again Thanks.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

good evening my friends: An excellent subject, but one that is not understood clearly by the present gen or even in many cases by those under 60, let alone many in here.. There is a fine line which is being utilized by the gov't to gradually have the populace readily conform to any decree.

The 13 th amendment -->
Amendment XIII
Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The legal difference between involuntary servitude and the scholastic progress / graduation requirement, which while completely legal, treads a fine line by the obvious 'preconditioning' of the future generations to accept this obligation as part of their moral debt to the gov't and society in general.

Any way you slice or interpretate it, it is at the 'present', a sugar coated, subtle loss of a bit of freedom. which will increase as the public becomes accustomed to it. Unfortunately, as the world's population increases, a certain amount of continuously increasing control 'will' become necessary. This can most easily be accomplished through conditioning of the younger generation through programs such as this.

While I recognize this as the inescapable future, I personally will 'resist' to my end. I have known a form of freedom that the last few generations cannot understand or know.

We had a fine Republic for over 150 years, but it is now bogging down through greed and laziness, coupled with our present "gimme', non producing, voting groups that will accept anything, providing that the gov't keeps giving other's money and goods to them.

From the posts, I see that certain people have already succumbed to the Govt's play in the schools that public service is a necessary and desired, part of formal education. Frankly, with our horrible level of college education today, I would prefer to see that time dedicated to actually learning something about their Major. A Chinese student puts most of our students to shame, both in effort and scholastic achievement.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[GL]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

This is a bad idea.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendment

With that attitude, then you should not have to attend school at all - though, it is required by the United States.


I don't know about anyone else, but when I volunteered to go in the Army, I got a paycheck. The Peace Corps, gets a stipend (pay), what do your kids get when they are "forced" to go to school, or 'forced' to take a language course, or 'forced' to take math, or algebra or history, or go on field trips? Nada, nothing - they get no stipend to go to school, it is forced volunteerism.

Many countries, socialist and otherwise, have MANY customs that are the same as ours - doesn't make it 'socialist'. If it does, then we need to stop many things that we don't have an interest in. Were we socialist when we had the draft? Forced Volunteerism?

Hey - by the way, I assume to are volunteering to pay your taxes, too? That's where you get to live in your own house as long as you pay your state, county, town - money to keep staying there. If you don't pay, you don't get to live in your own house that you paid for.

When you go to West Point or Annapolis or Colorado Springs, and you HAVE to serve for X number of years, (after your schooling is over) is that Forced Volunteerism?

The idea is not a cut and dried subject, but I do not understand why there is an issue with requirements to pass for graduation or pass a grade.
You don't HAVE to go to that college - therefore, it is NOT forced volunteerism. You can private school or home-school, you can choose another college. But - remember, you ARE required to have your kids in SOME sort of schooling. The alternative is to be fined, or have your kids taken away.

There is much "forced volunteerism" that is considered good by many, including most everyone here. (if it looks like a duck, quaks like a duck - its probably a duck.

B

 

[Eu_citzen]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendme

ask not what your country can do for you, ask what in the heck this country is doing to you.

communist china requires all citizens to submit to at least 2 years of millitary or gov. service, ( i can't believe that you even suggested that. i am ashamed for you. what country did you grow up in anyhow ? )

Not trying to kick you off your soapbox, or shed some light on the doom and gloom rant…. but, other countries have mandatory military service as well. That should be added into the mix. Here are a few:

Bermuda
Brazil
Denmark
Egypt
Finland
Greece
Israel
South Korea
Mexico
Norway
Sweden
Switzerland

I guess it makes better soapbox drama when you can scream out Communist China

Now a days joining the military in Sweden is made by free will. Not required anymore.

 

[Eu_citzen]

Re: compulsory volunteerism (required to pass ) "forced" labor vs 13th admendme

EU --- I am opposed to "forced volunteerism" aka socialism since leans toward the communist "govt owns the people and is in charge of the people" mindset -- and away from the american "we the people "own" the govt and are in charge of it --- thus the honest "free choice" type volunteering - that I hold in respect .

In some cases, extreme cases I could actually see it as benefical. It could keep more people occupied.

Socialism leans toward communism?! My god, Socialism leans more towards democracy.
At least if I recall Marx's ideas correct.