Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

As far as I know,ball courts were all located within large population centers,just as they are today. It is highly improbable,therefore,that one would have been constructed in the mountains.

I agree completely. It seems highly improbable, but you never know what will be found in the Superstitions. Who would think that a huge irrigation canal was constructed there by the ancients, cut into the rock? I am not saying that what our friend Blindbowman found is in fact an ancient Hohokam ballcourt, just that it is in the realm of possibility.
<map showing canal system of the Hohokam, link below>

From:
http://www.gemland.com/hohokam.htm

I have a PDF file of a newspaper article, which I cannot figure out how to post here but will upload into T-net somewhere, in a moment. I will then post the linkee here.

Even if his site were proven to be an ancient ballcourt, this would not prove that his site is Chicomoztoc, nor that Montezuma's tomb is nearby - however it would sure encourage further investigations.
Oroblanco

PS well that didn't work, but here is the relevant portion;

In the Superstition mountains Arizona engineers have found an artificial gorge four miles long and one hundred
feet deep cut down through solid rock by prehistoric irrigators and leading into 12 miles of ditches which irrigated nearly 100 acres of land now only a desert waste covered with the ruins of the ancient people

<from Mohave County Miner, KINGMAN ARIZONA MAY 31 1902>

 

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[Oroblanco]

Just a footnote here, something Bicknell published even before there was a Lost Dutchman mine in the Superstitions in the public eye; it could be complete BS of course but reinforces that you never know what will be found in the Superstitions.

MOUNT SUPERSTITION
QUEER PEAK IN ARIZONA THAT
THE APACHES FIGHT SHY OF.

A Gentleman with a Taste for Roaming Makes an Investigation and Finds a
Natural Electric Battery Rude Smelter of the Prehlstorlc Some twenty odd miles due east from
Phoenix, the capital of Arizona territory, rises abruptly to Superstition mountain,which forms a very prominent landmark, as it can be seen for a long dlstance in any direction. On the summit of Superstition mountain, and at the extreme western edge, overlooking tlie rocky bluffs, 200 and 800 feet in height, are the ruins of an old stone fort, such as are frequently found In Arizona at points where a good view of the surrounding country is afforded. About an acre of land, or rather rock, is within this inclosure. In this connection, and as the name of the mountain would indicate, is an Indian legend, and the place is held, even at tho present time, In a degree of veneration and awe by the tribes of that section of Arizona so great as to prevent any of their members hunting on or visiting it.

In the fall of 1883 P. C. Bicknell, who still resides in Phoenix, and who is a thoroughly educated gentleman, with a taste for roaming through the mountains and a penchant for archaeological research, paid a visit to a friend a cattle man residing on the Salt
river for the purpose of enjoying a brief period of recreation in hunting, fishing and the pursuit of his studies in nature. It occurred to him one day to visit the summit of Superstition mountain, which, although four or live miles distant, could easily be accomplished
before night. Taking his rifle and a canteen of water, Mr. Bicknell set out, and after a long walk and a laborious climb reached his objective point in the afternoon.

A LIVING LINE OF FIRE.
He saw nothing remarkable within the inclosure of the fallen walls. Some stone axes, hammers and broken pieces of pottery were scattered about, but as they were of the usual patterns found in all Arizona ruins they did not arouse especial interest. In one corner of the old fort, and nearly covered with fallen rock, he encountered a rude furnace, evidently used for the smelting of ores. Anxious to discover the use of what metal the prehistoric inhabitants had knowledge, he set about removing the stones. The work was very tedious and laborious, and, being absorbed with interest, he paid no attention to the flight of time. Finally he was rewarded by securing a piece of slag and also a specimen of ore which had not been subjected to treatment, and was surprised to find that the mineral was copper. Having settled this matter to the satisfaction of his own mind, Mr. Bicknell arose and cast a look to tho west, to discover that the sun was then sinking behind the range of distant mountains.

This did not disturb him much, however, so he built a fire, roasted a rabbit which he had killed on his way up, and made such preparations as were possible to spend the night comfortably on the mountain. After sundown the atmosphere became quite sultry, and, as there was every indication of a thunder storm, Mr. Bicknell concluded that he would not remain within the walls of the old fort, as the rain was liable to drive from the loose rocks rattlesnakes, centipedes and poisonous insects of various kinds. Therefore he selected for his sleeping place a remarkably smooth rock, about twenty yards in front of the east wall. Putting his hobnail shoes under his head for a pillow, Mr. Bicknell, somewhat exhausted from his long stroll and excitement, soon fell into a deep sleep.

Some time afterward he was suddenly awakened by a sharp electric shock which seemed to pass from the back of his neck downward. Managing to scramble to his feet he ran some distance to the east, and, looking back to his sleeping place, was surprised to see a living line of fire or lightning running across the mountain from north to south. Never having seen "ground lightning" before, Mr. Bicknell was very naturally awe stricken and astounded, but he was more than surprised when, recovering from his bewilderment, he noticed that the electric storm had not passed over tho mountain, but was as distant, apparently, as when he first lay down. The phenomenon lasted but a few moments, but its duration was sufficient for the explorer.

Upon returning to the camp next morning Mr. Bicknell related his experience, which was received with evident incredulity. However, he induced one of the men to accompany him to the mountain a few days afterward. They reached the summit about noon, and the weather was very warm. The men were standing upon the smooth spot which Bicknell had selected for a couch, and he was explaining about his shock, when, with simultaneous impulse, they both sprang forward and gazed into each other's faces in mute interrogation. Subsequent explanation showed that each had experienced a well defined electric shock, as , though by a light current from a galvanic battery.

Mr. Bicknell at once concluded that he would solve the mystery, and set about doing so, although his companion wus most anxious to leave the dread spot. The investigations then begun, and subsequently completed, led to the following discoveries:
On the north side of the precipice was a large dyke of pyritous iron, running east and west, and on its south wall the mineral appeared in the form of protosulphates, or what is commonly known as copperas. In the latter there was a small, irregularly shaped hole several feet in depth, into which water was slowly sipping from a small spring on a slight eminence some yards distant. This water was strongly impregnated with salt. From this pot hole and extending across the mountain top were a number of small veins, or stringers, of copper ore, almost pure in their native state, which terminated, to all appearances, in a heavy ledge of calcspar, bearing galena and a small percentage of gold, running parallel with the copper lead, but on the opposite brink of the bluff. The copper stringers connecting the ledges were evidently what is known in prospectors' parlance as a "blow out," and rested on malpais a kind of glassy slag produced by volcanic heat. Here was a positive and a negative pole, connected with a good electric conductor, and a chemical decomposition taking place that would produce a strong battery. With a jar of the copper stringers, produced by atmosphoric electrical disturbances or a number of persons stopping upon them, why might not a current be induced sufficiently strong as to become destructive to Animal life? But simply the facts are given, and the scientific reader is at liberty to evolve his own theories.

<<from the Evening Bulletin, Jan 15th 1890>>

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

That's a nice find on Bicknell. He spent a lot of time in the Superstitions.

"The Phoenix Gazette printed a letter sent to the editor from Willow Springs, in the Superstitions, in 1886......."

Here is Bick', in 1886, camping in the middle of the Stone Map trail, choosing to camp in the same place that Adolph Ruth picked 45 years later. Despite the
accepted story that Ruth started out from First Water, I believe they followed Bick's instructions, pretty much, to the letter.

Probably just another coincidence.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo Joe, (and everyone)
What is interesting (to me) is that Bicknell was exploring up in the Superstitions well before the Dutchman legend was born. He may be guilty of being the first to blend in extraneous matter to the Dutchman story, but he was not doing so utterly without reason. That is, if his words can be believed at all, he may well have been adding in those elements which he believed MUST be related. To my mind, that is less offensive than pure BS fabrication.

What I have not been able to locate is any published account of the Dutchman's mine prior to his death, even though so many people (years later) claimed to be aware of it, even of having tried to follow him to it. It may be asking too much for such an article, but you never know - there are older published accounts of a "Lost Dutchman" gold mine in AZ, but they relate to the other two (Wickenburg and Prescott) not the Superstitions.

Just found the thread on Calalus over on LDM forum, just have to poke my nose into it.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Believe it's the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. Amazing how many people knew him well.......once he was dead and famous.

I knew Ben was going to eventually drag Calalus into the mix, as I was familiar with the story, and could see/understand the hints he teased us with. Eventually, I was the first to call him on a Calalus connection. Believe he was a little surprised that I had figured it out.

Have a good time over there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I picked up that Willow Spring/P.C. Bicknell story from a book by Joseph Miller called, "Arizona The Last Frontier". That particular book has a nice inscription from Miller to Mrs. Georgia (Hiler) Hays, who was the niece of John Horton Slaughter, a well known pioneer of Arizona from the 1880's.

The other Milller book I have, has a nice inscription by Ross Santee in the front.
Santee is a prolific and well known artist of the Southwest and did all of the illustrations in both books. There is also an original drawing by Santee on the page with the inscription.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

i have not been back to inspect the ball cort site so when i can great .. but right now i have a lot to do .. i wish i had more time i hae been staying up at night to try to answer some of the questions ,, but bad things are going to happen soon .. i feel the shadow spirits comeing ...... death is comeing ...i can senece them ...

i just need some time to rest .. doing to much ... way to much .. latter

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I picked up that Willow Spring/P.C. Bicknell story from a book by Joseph Miller called, "Arizona The Last Frontier". That particular book has a nice inscription from Miller to Mrs. Georgia (Hiler) Hays, who was the niece of John Horton Slaughter, a well known pioneer of Arizona from the 1880's.

The other Milller book I have, has a nice inscription by Ross Santee in the front.
Santee is a prolific and well known artist of the Southwest and did all of the illustrations in both books. There is also an original drawing by Santee on the page with the inscription.

Take care,

Joe

I really would love to have a peek at your library amigo!

i have not been back to inspect the ball cort site so when i can great .. but right now i have a lot to do .. i wish i had more time i hae been staying up at night to try to answer some of the questions ,, but bad things are going to happen soon .. i feel the shadow spirits comeing ...... death is comeing ...i can senece them ...

i just need some time to rest .. doing to much ... way to much .. latter

That is a rather ominous portent you just posted; of course death must visit us all, sooner or later. Are you saying that you have a premonition of death approaching?
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

You and Beth are welcome here anytime. My library is not that large, but it's of good quality. I have some interesting books. I know you would love sitting in my war room for a few days ........or more.

Probably end up wearing out our coffee pot.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Roy,

I picked up that Willow Spring/P.C. Bicknell story from a book by Joseph Miller called, "Arizona The Last Frontier". That particular book has a nice inscription from Miller to Mrs. Georgia (Hiler) Hays, who was the niece of John Horton Slaughter, a well known pioneer of Arizona from the 1880's.

The other Milller book I have, has a nice inscription by Ross Santee in the front.
Santee is a prolific and well known artist of the Southwest and did all of the illustrations in both books. There is also an original drawing by Santee on the page with the inscription.

Take care,

Joe

I really would love to have a peek at your library amigo!

i have not been back to inspect the ball cort site so when i can great .. but right now i have a lot to do .. i wish i had more time i hae been staying up at night to try to answer some of the questions ,, but bad things are going to happen soon .. i feel the shadow spirits comeing ...... death is comeing ...i can senece them ...

i just need some time to rest .. doing to much ... way to much .. latter

That is a rather ominous portent you just posted; of course death must visit us all, sooner or later. Are you saying that you have a premonition of death approaching?
Roy

i guess there is nothing else to say to you then .. you and joe can read till the sun rises .. i am out here .. latter

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

i guess there is nothing else to say to you then .. you and joe can read till the sun rises .. i am out here .. latter

Gosh sometimes you are a bit touchy amigo, I can understand that things are tough to deal with at home now so am not going to keep asking. I figure you will tell the world when you are good and ready.

Joe, I am going to take you up on that offer, and I hope your coffeepot won't fail us. There is always the old reliable sock coffee however so we need not run out.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

It starts making it's magic at 5 AM, so I can hear and smell it right now.

Got to go!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Steak man Joe: you posted -->It starts making it's magic at 5 AM, so I can hear and smell it right now.
**************
Ya see Oro? he only posts one cup of coffee, just as I always figured ehehehhehh

Don err, ?? what's his name ??

 

[cactusjumper]

As I said once before, Tom Kollenborn is one of the best sources for the history of the LDM and the region of the Superstition Mountains. His knowledge stretches far beyond those subjects alone.

Jim has finally managed to run him off of DUSA, and now, in his mind, he is the top source for those subjects on that site. I should think others will follow Tom's lead. It was not something he wanted to do, but he was left no choice.

If the LDM is ever found, Tom Kollenborn will be part of the trail that leads to it.

If we are lucky, Tom might start looking in on this forum. One can only hope.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

I just took a look-see at what you were talking about. Another good person bites the dust. (I can hear the crash and burning). Of course, just because Tom isn't there, it won't make him any less important to the LDM communitity, and will not make Jim any more important.

You are right, Tom K., imo also, is one of the most knowledgeable about the LDM - and frankly, much like Bob Corbin, does not mind at all sharing his wisdom. Which I so enjoy.

I suspect we might be a little too contentious here on Tnet for Tom, but it sure would be great if he would post here. At least here he has the opportunity to use the ignore button, and share his thoughts about things, including SSAR and SAR, without fear of anyone thinking it is an
advertisement (yes, I know,it was just an excuse).

Fingers crossed.

B

 

[Oroblanco]

As I said once before, Tom Kollenborn is one of the best sources for the history of the LDM and the region of the Superstition Mountains. His knowledge stretches far beyond those subjects alone.

Jim has finally managed to run him off of DUSA, and now, in his mind, he is the top source for those subjects on that site. I should think others will follow Tom's lead. It was not something he wanted to do, but he was left no choice.

If the LDM is ever found, Tom Kollenborn will be part of the trail that leads to it.

If we are lucky, Tom might start looking in on this forum. One can only hope.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

That is too bad, a major loss for DUSA in my opinion. I hope Tom will decide to join us here. Maybe if he knew how many friends of his are here already, it might be a factor?

5 AM !!! Yikes! There are times when I have been awake at that time, <or rather I should say, "still awake"> but usually regret it.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Tom has visited this site many times. Over time he has asked me to look in on the posts from DUSA, just to be aware of some of the off the wall comments being made by some of their members. In fact he was the one who convinced me to join the site. I didn't expect to last long and that's how it worked out.

The opposite of that, have been the times I have recommended that he look in here to see the comments being made by some of those same members. One such discussion dealt with someone overstaying their "visit" with a friend of mine, and what took place when he was finally asked to go home.

As you know, as well as many others here, that story is completely true. Some have heard or read the account from my friend, who felt the need to end the visit.

This kind of denial of facts is one of the greatest detriments to finding the LDM, IMHO. Too many years of creating your own "facts" and truths tend to bury whatever reality once existed. Eventually, if you make deceit an ongoing habit, you become a laughingstock and your "friends" will turn their back on you.

When that happens, old friends become your enemies, unless you come to your senses, which I don't see much chance of in this case.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Might be that some will find this little snippet of greater interest??
I have now seen this particular version of Jesuit Symbolism in two places.
Not counting,of course,that which appears on the stones.

Regards:SH.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

SH,

Ok, I'll bite.

Where is this on the Stones?


Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

Well......not the whole thing, just pieces.

Take care,

Joe