Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards

[Blindbowman]

i am sorry i do have a life out side this web site .. i had to do some dishes....maybe i will answer this latter ..

WHAT?!!! What on Earth could be more important, than our little debates here amigo? Surely a few dirty dishes can't be the cause of an interruption! (heh heh ) Just kidding amigo, you know me well enough to know that I am never in a hurry about anything, so there is never a need to rush a reply to me. When you get round to it, will be soon enough.

I like to take my time in answering our posts anyway, gives me a chance to think about what has been said and to choose my words. It is why I never have enjoyed the "hot" type of discussion you have as in the chat rooms or instant messaging; there is no time to look up a reference or think carefully about a concept. Sorry for drifting so far off-topic.

Actually since our topic is "Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards" the question may well be posed whether the Holmes manuscript itself may not be qualified as one of these things? If it is in fact a garbled set of instructions as received from Waltz, then they very probably cannot lead anyone to the Lost Dutchman gold mine unless purely by sheer accident. The same could be said of the set of directions from Julia and Reiney for that matter, if they had gotten the information garbled in some way, the results will be the same. Considering how many different Dutch hunters have had the same result of NOT finding the Lost Dutchman gold mine, the evidence certainly suggests that our main sources may well be classed as "Diversions,Dead Ends and Wild Cards".

That said, I still consider Sims Ely as our prime resource, and we cannot utterly disregard Holmes either, though his actions speak louder than the manuscript. Why for instance, was Holmes looking for the Dutchman mine way out by Picket Post, if we are really supposed to be looking within a few miles of Weaver's Needle? Does that make a lot of sense to you? Thank you in advance,

My general patience for replies (and most things) no longer applies in my wait for Don Jose's upcoming book on Tayopa, and yes amigo I will keep on bugging you now until we get at least an introductory chapter or three!
Oroblanco

you are correct waltz garbled dirrection confused dick holmes worse then most , dick holmes was not trying to find the mine at picks . he was trying to back track waltz dirrections, but as i stated they are not dirrections to the mine . they are a set f coded details of what a presone will see when he is at the mine ..

its really funny you put it like that ..i am headed the other way on the same path .. i want to figer out how the mines real location fits all the clues and i keep finding more things i did not know yet knowing where the real mine is makes it twice as confuseing as it was hunting for clues in the other dirrection ..lol ...

and haveing 29 sites is not helping the refineing research at times .. its a rats nest ..

i was totally honest when i said i did not think anyone could find this mine in your life times .. its 20 times hard to find thenthe one you showed ... no jokeing aside dude this mine is a real nightmare waiting to happend .. one misteak and its going to be a painful fall into a lot of old junk ,bones and old weapons ..

 

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[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

so ya i got a lot of questions to .. but none of you act like you have the answers . and i at lest have some idea where to find the answers ..

None of us have all the answers amigo, and I hope that I never gave the impression that I do. When you tell us what you see, that is obtained by remote viewing - we have no way of knowing whether it is true or false, or if you are interpreting what you see correctly. This is why I try to stick to what can be photographed. <Whether it is photographed or not>

You are dead-sure you found the Lost Dutchman; that is good enough for you. I would love to congratulate you, but even though not from Missouri, I still need that ore comparison to match before I can be a believer. As for Chicomoztoc, that is quite another kettle of fish.

Blindbowman also wrote

you are correct waltz garbled dirrection confused dick holmes worse then most , dick holmes was not trying to find the mine at picks . he was trying to back track waltz dirrections, but as i stated they are not dirrections to the mine . they are a set f coded details of what a presone will see when he is at the mine ..

its really funny you put it like that ..i am headed the other way on the same path .. i want to figer out how the mines real location fits all the clues and i keep finding more things i did not know yet knowing where the real mine is makes it twice as confuseing as it was hunting for clues in the other dirrection ..lol ...

and haveing 29 sites is not helping the refineing research at times .. its a rats nest ..

i was totally honest when i said i did not think anyone could find this mine in your life times .. its 20 times hard to find then the one you showed ... no jokeing aside dude this mine is a real nightmare waiting to happend .. one misteak and its going to be a painful fall into a lot of old junk ,bones and old weapons .

You do not know how well hidden that mine is amigo, in fact I would bet you a silver dollar to a donut that you will walk right past it, if you should go there. Once you see it in the photos, it is clear enough naturally but they are shot at a distance of arms length away not yards or further. Beth posted one photo earlier she titled "can you see the mine" and it is looking directly at the mine from less than ten yards away. It is amazingly well hidden by nature herself.

If I were in your shoes, I would consider focusing on the Dutchman mine alone and let the rest sort out later; especially since the evidence to support them is so thin. After you are financially set for life (from the proceeds of the gold) then the rest of the puzzle could be worked out at your leisure. That is, of course assuming that you actually have a rich gold mine, and not just another old prospect hole dug by earlier Dutch-hunters or worse, a natural cave! That is just an opinion, if I found myself in your position as you state it; how you proceed is of course your own decision.


Roy

Coffee?

 

[Oroblanco]

I must sign off for the evening; I wish you all a very pleasant evening and a great day tomorrow!
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

I must sign off for the evening; I wish you all a very pleasant evening and a great day tomorrow!
Roy

maybe your right .. just pack out some gold and never go back ... someone else will find it some day ...

 

[Cubfan64]

And BB - I missed you for the last few months, so took you off ignore again. I give you credit for thinking outside of the box as far as the Holme's Manuscript goes, but tell me if you would - you appear to be trying to interpret the document exactly as it's printed in Dr. Glover's book, is that correct?

So I assume you believe Jacob Waltz wrote all of this down (word for word) for Dick Holmes after Julia left to get the Doctor because Waltz was dying. After he got the document, he killed Waltz, stole the gold under the bed and started looking for the mine. Eventually Dick passed that document down to Brownie who in turn gave a copy in 1944 to Higham who donated it to the Arizona State Archives where it sat until it was discovered and put in Dr. Glover's book.

Just checking to see if I'm on the same page as you so far.

I fail to see why this is a stupid question and am curious as to why you don't answer it?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro & BB: Once I was looking for one of the lost 7 mines of the so called Golden triangle, 'La Pimas', to verify if the lost Tayopa merited a long search.. I found it, it was below an outcropping on top of one side of a barranca. The entrance, first room, had caved in leaving a roundish depression several ft deep, perhaps 30 ft in dia.. However the orig portal was still free standing. I only marked it's location casually in my mind and left.

Later, when I attempted to return I could not find it, despite two days on the spot.

On a third trip it was so plain that I felt ridiculous, however on a fourth trip I could not find it again . I finally returned and took precise cross bearings, no problems any more.. I attribute the problem to different lighting at different times of the year..

Sooo as you can see, it is easy to become confused, even "I" have been so. Snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro & BB: Once I was looking for one of the lost 7 mines of the so called Golden triangle, 'La Pimas', to verify if the lost Tayopa merited a long search.. I found it, it was below an outcropping on top of one side of a barranca. The entrance, first room, had caved in leaving a roundish depression several ft deep, perhaps 30 ft in dia.. However the orig portal was still free standing. I only marked it's location casually in my mind and left.

Later, when I attempted to return I could not find it, despite two days on the spot.

On a third trip it was so plain that I felt ridiculous, however on a fourth trip I could not find it again . I finally returned and took precise cross bearings, no problems any more.. I attribute the problem to different lighting at different times of the year..

Sooo as you can see, it is easy to become confused, even "I" have been so. Snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola my friend; yes we have had similar such incidents, even with the tunnels on one of our mines which is not lost. The tunnel mouths blend into the countryside so well it is amazing, in fact if we did not know their location we could easily "lose" two of them. I have a little photo project in mind to show some of our skeptics who believe that something so large and obvious as a mine cannot possibly ever get lost - they have no idea how well such a thing can 'vanish' just from the natural growth of brush, being covered by mudslide, sands etc.

Blindbowman wrote

maybe your right .. just pack out some gold and never go back ... someone else will find it some day ..

That was just my opinion amigo; not being a wealthy person, the gold (or silver) has always been the major incentive for Beth and me. However if (or when) we should become 'wealthy' or well off enough that money is no longer a concern, we will still be out looking for those lost mines. It is in your blood amigo, you can't quit!
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

Oro & BB: Once I was looking for one of the lost 7 mines of the so called Golden triangle, 'La Pimas', to verify if the lost Tayopa merited a long search.. I found it, it was below an outcropping on top of one side of a barranca. The entrance, first room, had caved in leaving a roundish depression several ft deep, perhaps 30 ft in dia.. However the orig portal was still free standing. I only marked it's location casually in my mind and left.

Later, when I attempted to return I could not find it, despite two days on the spot.

On a third trip it was so plain that I felt ridiculous, however on a fourth trip I could not find it again . I finally returned and took precise cross bearings, no problems any more.. I attribute the problem to different lighting at different times of the year..

Sooo as you can see, it is easy to become confused, even "I" have been so. Snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

no way , you confussed .. now your just makeing jokes ...lol unfocused maybe .. confussed i dont buy that for a second lol

thats like thinking a quarter master could get lost ...lol impossable .. the odds are so great it would never happen it even gives god the shakes to think it could be possable at all ...lol we always say . we never get lost .. were just getting our bearings ......lol

i do remember once in heavy sea in the indain ocean ,, 22 ft wave . stroming with heavy rain . and over cast skys ..

used DR tracking for a few hours and took a few loran fixs .. . ok i wasnt lost then i was trying to enjoy the weather at the time lol

nothing like sea salt in the eyes when your trying to shot a star line threw a small brake in the over cast in heavy waves . try that some day .. you want a real chance of getting lost ..i did lose my 1st wedding ring in the indain ocean that day trying to take those readings .... i would have rather thrown the sexton over board ...lol

 

[Blindbowman]

Oro & BB: Once I was looking for one of the lost 7 mines of the so called Golden triangle, 'La Pimas', to verify if the lost Tayopa merited a long search.. I found it, it was below an outcropping on top of one side of a barranca. The entrance, first room, had caved in leaving a roundish depression several ft deep, perhaps 30 ft in dia.. However the orig portal was still free standing. I only marked it's location casually in my mind and left.

Later, when I attempted to return I could not find it, despite two days on the spot.

On a third trip it was so plain that I felt ridiculous, however on a fourth trip I could not find it again . I finally returned and took precise cross bearings, no problems any more.. I attribute the problem to different lighting at different times of the year..

Sooo as you can see, it is easy to become confused, even "I" have been so. Snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

Hola my friend; yes we have had similar such incidents, even with the tunnels on one of our mines which is not lost. The tunnel mouths blend into the countryside so well it is amazing, in fact if we did not know their location we could easily "lose" two of them. I have a little photo project in mind to show some of our skeptics who believe that something so large and obvious as a mine cannot possibly ever get lost - they have no idea how well such a thing can 'vanish' just from the natural growth of brush, being covered by mudslide, sands etc.

Blindbowman wrote

maybe your right .. just pack out some gold and never go back ... someone else will find it some day ..

That was just my opinion amigo; not being a wealthy person, the gold (or silver) has always been the major incentive for Beth and me. However if (or when) we should become 'wealthy' or well off enough that money is no longer a concern, we will still be out looking for those lost mines. It is in your blood amigo, you can't quit!
Roy

afording expedition 5 is no longer an issue.. just haveing the time free to go and do the research with out effecting my presonal life .. the plaining is a nightmare waiting to happen after one delay cost me near $900 ,i dont think i will try that again ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Blindbowman wrote

afording expedition 5 is no longer an issue.. just haveing the time free to go and do the research with out effecting my presonal life .. the plaining is a nightmare waiting to happen after one delay cost me near $900 ,i dont think i will try that again ..

I know that you like to bring rather a lot of costly equipment with you amigo, maybe it would be worth considering going very light? That is the way Beth and I have been operating (mostly) and with less equipment to pack, damage or lose you can travel farther and easier. It might help keep your costs down too.

On the other hand, if documenting your find is the main point of the expedition, you may well need all that equipment. Just thinking 'out loud' (online). I know that I was sure wishing we had a drywasher and a rockerbox, but there was no room to pack such things so I do see the other side of the equation as well. I guess it depends very much on what your main mission is.
Roy

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

And, just so you know - even traveling light, we looked like the Beverly Hillbillies - all we lacked was the rocking chair.

I'm sure some folks at the rendezvous could testify to THAT fact!

B

 

[Oroblanco]

<Oroblanco's all-purpose prospecting and treasure hunting SUV>

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Sock coffee

 

[pronghorn]

You had mentioned some time ago, about finding a ball court. I am still curious about that, perhaps you may find enough trust to share the location? You can rest assured that I am not about to start hacking it up to haul it away, nor could anyone for that matter but the site may well be very important, historically speaking.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Wasn't the supposed ballcourt location revealed in
"the everything site" thread?
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,159289.0.html
I may be wrong. Also I was thinking that was the location
that BB sent a member here to, then claimed he sent him there for
bait or as a decoy or some &*#@. Or maybe I just make stuff up.

 

[Blindbowman]

You had mentioned some time ago, about finding a ball court. I am still curious about that, perhaps you may find enough trust to share the location? You can rest assured that I am not about to start hacking it up to haul it away, nor could anyone for that matter but the site may well be very important, historically speaking.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Wasn't the supposed ballcourt location revealed in
"the everything site" thread?
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,159289.0.html
I may be wrong. Also I was thinking that was the location
that BB sent a member here to, then claimed he sent him there for
bait or as a decoy or some &*#@. Or maybe I just make stuff up.

no you got the sites confused .. i have 29 sites in all

i sent Cup to a diffrent site. and yes i did say that at the time and latter gave the real reason i sent him there .. but it dose matter because he did not under stand it then and he most like will not under stand it till i set down and show him why i sent him there .. dont worry .. he will smile from ear to ear when he knows the truth ,,,,,.
i research the ball cort site for more then 2 years .. i have site that span about 4 1/2 apart to the northern west end of fo larbage canyon to do west of weaver's needle some 1/2 mile short of parkers pass ..4 sites in the red hills ...

 

[Cubfan64]

And BB - I missed you for the last few months, so took you off ignore again. I give you credit for thinking outside of the box as far as the Holme's Manuscript goes, but tell me if you would - you appear to be trying to interpret the document exactly as it's printed in Dr. Glover's book, is that correct?

So I assume you believe Jacob Waltz wrote all of this down (word for word) for Dick Holmes after Julia left to get the Doctor because Waltz was dying. After he got the document, he killed Waltz, stole the gold under the bed and started looking for the mine. Eventually Dick passed that document down to Brownie who in turn gave a copy in 1944 to Higham who donated it to the Arizona State Archives where it sat until it was discovered and put in Dr. Glover's book.

Just checking to see if I'm on the same page as you so far.

BB - can you clarify that what I said above is correct? I asked you a couple times before but you must have missed it.

 

[Cubfan64]

You had mentioned some time ago, about finding a ball court. I am still curious about that, perhaps you may find enough trust to share the location? You can rest assured that I am not about to start hacking it up to haul it away, nor could anyone for that matter but the site may well be very important, historically speaking.

Good luck and good hunting amigo, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Wasn't the supposed ballcourt location revealed in
"the everything site" thread?
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,159289.0.html
I may be wrong. Also I was thinking that was the location
that BB sent a member here to, then claimed he sent him there for
bait or as a decoy or some &*#@. Or maybe I just make stuff up.

You have it right Pronghorn - thanks for saving me time I couldn't find the reference to his vision of the Aztec playing "ball" with a bloody skull, but here is the ball court reference and location Oro.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,159289.msg1327192.html#msg1327192

 

[pronghorn]

You have it right Pronghorn - thanks for saving me time

 

[Oroblanco]

Muchas gracias amigos!

That "u" shaped area would be what Blindbowman is saying is a ballcourt? The reason I am interested in this is that there are real ancient precolumbian ballcourts found in Arizona, including along the Salt river valley. I don't have the map handy, but it is surprising how many have been found in Arizona and the American southwest. If one were found IN the Superstitions, further investigation would be warranted. There are traces of ancient work in the Superstitions, most likely done by Hohokam in the line of irrigation, possibly copper mining as well.

The fact that natives of Arizona were playing a sport that seems to have originated far to the south, which required a rubber ball that likewise had to be imported from far to the south, has implications that fly in the face of accepted history.
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Roy:

There are about 200 known ball courts throughout the southwestern US.Two of the largest were found at Snaketown and the Gatlin site at Gila Bend.The one at Gatlin had a poured caliche playing surface of 35'x100'.They have been also found at Wupatki and near Montezuma's Well,as well as in the Verde Valley.As far as I know,ball courts were all located within large population centers,just as they are today.It is highly improbable,therefore,that one would have been constructed in the mountains.

Regards:SH.