Dutchman's Caches

[Matthew Roberts]

Dave is correct. All mine claims stopped at midnight December 31, 1983.

But, anyone who had a previous claim was given the opportunity to prove up their claim and get patent if it could pass all the tests. Of course the deck was stacked on that and the FS went out and denied claims out of hand or in most cases just filed paperwork the claim was void. Harnish had so many claims it took the FS 2 years to voided them all. The only person I know who was allowed to keep working his claim to prove patent was incredibly Mike Bilbry. He eventually lost and his L 1-8 claims were all voided.

 

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[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
By what I’m hearing, what Harnish did and didn’t do, has me thinking that he may have found a cache, but not the LDM.
Drilled holes, dug around, and found some stuff, but not LDM.
Was trying hard to keep the claim.
Must not have thought he got all the ravine had to offer.
If he had the LDM, sounds like maybe he might have been able to keep it.

 

[azdave35]

Matthew,
By what I’m hearing, what Harnish did and didn’t do, has me thinking that he may have found a cache, but not the LDM.
Drilled holes, dug around, and found some stuff, but not LDM.
Was trying hard to keep the claim.
Must not have thought he got all the ravine had to offer.
If he had the LDM, sounds like maybe he might have been able to keep it.

as far as i remember harnish didn't have a pot to pee in but i could be wrong

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
By what I’m hearing, what Harnish did and didn’t do, has me thinking that he may have found a cache, but not the LDM.
Drilled holes, dug around, and found some stuff, but not LDM.
Was trying hard to keep the claim.
Must not have thought he got all the ravine had to offer.
If he had the LDM, sounds like maybe he might have been able to keep it.

If Harnish had found the LDM, those two guys would not be digging around in different places, they would just go to one place.

Edit: in my opinion that is

Unless it was their standard ruse ... split up, when passerby’s come.
But then would have to ask why not use LDM, to keep LDM.

Actions and behaviors seem to indicate Harnish didn’t find it.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

This should probably be done in PM but everything is a moot point now anyway and Idaho might be able to use the information.

Dave is right again, Harnish wasnt a wealthy man. But here is something Idaho might be able to put together. In about 77 or 78 Harnish had a partner named Johnny Curtis who had some means to him. Together they filed 5 mining claims in Idaho's area. They called them the Tunnel claims. There was the 5 claims together, 3 on the bottom and two on the top tier. The one on top in the NE corner was the actual tunnel site. It wasn't really a tunnel because in mining a horizontal cut into a mountain is an adit unless it breaks out into something like the other side. Then it's a tunnel.
Something came out of this audit,tunnel, but I never found out what. The audit, tunnel was what Fowler and Pierce were digging in when I was there in 84. Right after the 5 claims were filed in 77 the Harnish had lots of cash and new equipment and vehicle. There was a big time at the old Oasis bar on the Apache Trail and Curtis and the Harnish crew were there having a real time, buying drinks and tossing money around. I talked with one of the crew and he would clam up when questioned about their success. The finally monument mentioned here might be tied to the audit, tunnel, I don't know but a curious thing about those 5 Tunnel claims is the last recorded activity on them was March 1994.

 

[azdave35]

View attachment 1913774

The red circle is within the area Hank and Marion Harnish claimed as the Spanish Priest Hat claims. Harnish along with George Pierce and Bill Fowler claimed berween 25 and 30 mining clims there after forming the Christian Mining Company. Their claims covered a little over one square mile altogether. The Harnish brothers and Pierce dug several shafts and one adit into the mountain that went back in about 25 feet. The red circle is probably one of their camps or one of their diggings. I haven't been in that canyon since 1984 but remember seeing their Spanish Priest Hat claim markers. Bill Fowler was struck by lightning and killed out there while working on those claims. azdave probably knows more about Harnish's claims.

[FONT=&quot]CHRISTIAN BELL HPHF 9[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]FOWLER, BILLY J[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]HARNISH, HENRY C[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]HARNISH, MARION O[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]PIERCE, GREGORY A........looks like these are the other guys on the claim[/FONT]

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
I take that as quite the compliment, and will give a try.
That is curious ... all of it.
If either by pm or post, are you free to mark up something showing approximate locations of those 5 audit/tunnel claims, and if any information on type of activities that were being recorded..

It would help to see where precisely Where the NE one was/is at.
Thanks Matthew,
Russ

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I can give it a try. You have to understand this was a long time back and trying to remember all this exactly is not so easy. Marion Harnish filed some claims over by Fish Creek and together they had claims all over the Superstitions. I went more by what I saw than what was recorded. One of these days I'm going to have to write some of this down before I forget it completely.

 

[azdave35]

I can give it a try. You have to understand this was a long time back and trying to remember all this exactly is not so easy. Marion Harnish filed some claims over by Fish Creek and together they had claims all over the Superstitions. I went more by what I saw than what was recorded. One of these days I'm going to have to write some of this down before I forget it completely.

yes...they had claims near the rogers trough area too

 

[Matthew Roberts]

yes...they had claims near the rogers trough area too

That's correct Dave. Some 200 claims I estimate over 30 years. He would let some claims lapse then refile on them years later under different names. Had several permanant camps over those 30 years.

 

[Idahodutch]

I can give it a try. You have to understand this was a long time back and trying to remember all this exactly is not so easy. Marion Harnish filed some claims over by Fish Creek and together they had claims all over the Superstitions. I went more by what I saw than what was recorded. One of these days I'm going to have to write some of this down before I forget it completely.

Lol, I just saw your post, I was only talking about post ‘84 activities, and only on Claims on ravine region.
I apologize for misunderstanding. Was not handing out assignment.
I got embarrassed

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
I think I’m ready to report back ...

There are factors that could sway things, but since Harnish was filing tunnel claims in 1977, 1978, and found something exciting, but short lived, I don’t think it was the LDM, that they found.

I agree, that Waltz Map, didn’t come from Waltz.
Who could he have possibly been making it for?
He was trying to get Holmes and Julia to the mine. The only cache of the 3, that was left, was the big one on top of the mine. Some clever map, with vague coding, and nothing labeled, does not fit the bill, for Holmes or Julia.
It exists though, so is it a hoax, or is it a treasure map?
Either way, it took someone with a lot of familiarity of that area, as well as the LDM legend, to make the map.

So I kind of think that whoever made the map, found the LDM.
Question is, was it still there when they found it?

Harnish didn’t seem to find it.
Another big factor, what areas exactly did Harnish eliminate from search.
If waltz said no miner would find, would it have been where Harnish looked?

If map maker found LDM empty, is that motive to make the map?

My head has been spinning.
My gut feeling ... it was found after Harnish, so renewed caches, and stuff in the LDM
And Harnish found something, but not LDM, nor the cache that was on top of it.

Who is mapmaker is another story
Hope I passed

 

[Idahodutch]

Idahodutch,

Yes, thank you, that helps orient things much better.

Here is what I remember about that ravine and keep in mind it was 27 years ago.

Fowler and Pierce had their camp down at the mouth of that ravine where it emptied into the creek. There are some deep pools of water there that hold well into the late summer.

Your red circle is about 200 - 250 feet above their camp and right in the ravine drainage.

The men were digging about 100 feet straight above the red circle and about 100 - 200 feet up that steep draw to the upper right.

I went up that ravine to the left of your red circle and don't recall anything there but had no reference to examine that spot so it doesn't mean that nothing is there.

I was more interested in Fowler and Pierce and noted several monuments marking claims.

I went up over the saddle at the top to the left and dropped down the other side. I noticed one open shaft on the upper part of that ravine and saw what appeared two other dumps I assumed were shafts also.

Sometime in 84 I talked with Fowler in Cave Creek briefly but he was closed lip about his dealings with Harnish. It was something like a year or two later I heard he was killed by lightning somewhere in Needle canyon while working for Harnish. Harnish kept all his previous mine claims he had before the December 31, 1983 withdrawal of all mining in the wilderness area. Fowler and Pierce were out there doing work to prove up the previous claims when both were struck in a thunderstorm. Pierce survived, Fowler died instantly.

Matthew,
I thought there was something familiar with your wording shown above in red.

Did your path up to saddle, go up along that drainage path .... because it looks like you would not have been able to see that spot in red circle ..... “until right up on it”.

Do those words sound familiar to you?
They are from Holmes manuscript, and that spot in red circle .... looks to be Waltz’ hidden camp .....

 

[Steamboat]

Matthew Roberts, you are a wealth of information. Do everyone a favor and write a book based on your experiences.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
I thought there was something familiar with your wording shown above in red.

Did your path up to saddle, go up along that drainage path .... because it looks like you would not have been able to see that spot in red circle ..... “until right up on it”.

Do those words sound familiar to you?
They are from Holmes manuscript, and that spot in red circle .... looks to be Waltz’ hidden camp .....

I accidently posted the following on the wrong thread, fixing now,

I see it as important to follow clues as much as possible. You can never tell when a clue will pop out at you. In this case, it is WHICH mouth of canyon, Waltz was talking about. But now is evident it was the mouth of the ravine drainage.

A snip from the directions from Brownie Holmes Manuscript:

“Go through this saddle and on up a low ridge and when you get to the highest point of the ridge you can look north and the four peaks are lined up to look like one peak.
In the other direction you will see a high needle.

In the canyon under you is my hidden camp.
You can't get down there because it's too steep, go to the mouth of the canyon and then back.

You can find the rock house with very little difficulty. You won't be able to see it until you are right upon it. After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon. (Here Waltz gave a direction to the mine that Holmes and Roberts kept secret). You will never be able to find the mine until you first find the rock house as the shaft is completely hidden. A prospector won't find it because there is no ledge in view. In the mine you will find about $75,000 dollars in gold already dug out. There is enough gold left to dig to make twenty men millionaires." I dug the outcropping away and erased all signs of my digging.“

 

[Idahodutch]

I have a question to put out there .... in reading that snip from Holmes manuscript ...
What might be at Waltz’ hidden camp, that Waltz kept there, that would prevent finding the mine, if Holmes didn’t have it?

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
I take that as quite the compliment, and will give a try.
That is curious ... all of it.
If either by pm or post, are you free to mark up something showing approximate locations of those 5 audit/tunnel claims, and if any information on type of activities that were being recorded..

It would help to see where precisely Where the NE one was/is at.
Thanks Matthew,
Russ

Matthew,
I don’t know if either Fowler or Pierce were avid Dutch hunters .... to be reading books and such,
But would think maybe not the books until perhaps a decade after the 77/78 mystery find.

The Holmes manuscript, does not seem to have been widely used by average Joe Dutch hunter, until perhaps the 80’s or 90’s.

I think it likely, since Harnish had Fowler and Pierce, stay on it for proving up claims, and that their names were also on those tunnel claims, that those two, had long history working together out there.

It would not surprise me, if sometime in 84 or 85, just before the lightning that took Fowler, one or the other of them got the information from the manuscript. The narrative about the path to the ravine, and waltz’ camp.

I think that if Harnish had ever known about the manuscript clues, he would have looked at the Four Peaks view, and any sign of Waltz’ hidddn camp would have been demolished.

I do think it possible, that either Fowler or Pierce while out proving those claims in 84 or 85, perhaps did see the view, and kept it to themselves. Nobody could file a new claim, so they started looking.

They would have then known where the hidden camp could be found, and talked about it instantly upon reading it.

Then Fowler gets hit by lightning, but Pierce doesn’t.
Grief stricken Pierce, resolves his new quest to his old pard’s memory.

However, I do not know if Pierce is still alive. And if he is not the map maker, it could be very hard on him, to get ambushed by Dutch hunters trying to have time with him.

I think it’s quite possible that he is the map maker for the Waltz map, but out of respect,
If anybody was to attempt a visit, it should be by you (Matthew) or Clay, maybe both.

Pierce, had the means, the time, and perhaps the knowledge, and motive.

If I could have do over on my report, this would be it.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Edit: as far as the mystery find ..... I personally do not think it was the LDM, but rather a much smaller squirt of the good stuff, had maybe also shot up into where they did the tunnel audit.
The party doesn’t sound to have lasted very long, and looks to have been down to slim pickings from then until booted by Forest Service.

One of the German clues, has Waltz calling the site, his uplift.
It is an uplift alright. Would be kind of strange, to only have one squirt of good stuff happen, during the violent uplift of that area.

This report is only theoretical about Pierce. Please have respect.
I debated with myself as to post this or not, so please ...

 

[azdave35]

Matthew,
I don’t know if either Fowler or Pierce were avid Dutch hunters .... to be reading books and such,
But would think maybe not the books until perhaps a decade after the 77/78 mystery find.

The Holmes manuscript, does not seem to have been widely used by average Joe Dutch hunter, until perhaps the 80’s or 90’s.

I think it likely, since Harnish had Fowler and Pierce, stay on it for proving up claims, and that their names were also on those tunnel claims, that those two, had long history working together out there.

It would not surprise me, if sometime in 84 or 85, just before the lightning that took Fowler, one or the other of them got the information from the manuscript. The narrative about the path to the ravine, and waltz’ camp.

I think that if Harnish had ever known about the manuscript clues, he would have looked at the Four Peaks view, and any sign of Waltz’ hidddn camp would have been demolished.

I do think it possible, that either Fowler or Pierce while out proving those claims in 84 or 85, perhaps did see the view, and kept it to themselves. Nobody could file a new claim, so they started looking.

They would have then known where the hidden camp could be found, and talked about it instantly upon reading it.

Then Fowler gets hit by lightning, but Pierce doesn’t.
Grief stricken Pierce, resolves his new quest to his old pard’s memory.

However, I do not know if Pierce is still alive. And if he is not the map maker, it could be very hard on him, to get ambushed by Dutch hunters trying to have time with him.

I think it’s quite possible that he is the map maker for the Waltz map, but out of respect,
If anybody was to attempt a visit, it should be by you (Matthew) or Clay, maybe both.

Pierce, had the means, the time, and perhaps the knowledge, and motive.

If I could have do over on my report, this would be it.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

or maybe god got tired of the crew running con games and struck fowler dead with lightning

 

[Idahodutch]

Dave,
Maybe not far off.
I supposed to myself, that Fowler struck dead, but not Pierce,
well ... maybe the final result was a changed Pierce.

Whoever was maker of map, appears to have given the LDM back to Dutch hunters, quietly through the back door way.

 

[azdave35]

Dave,
Maybe not far off.
I supposed to myself, that Fowler struck dead, but not Pierce,
well ... maybe the final result was a changed Pierce.

Whoever was maker of map, appears to have given the LDM back to Dutch hunters, quietly through the back door way.

dutch...first thing you should think about...guys like harnish...fowler...crazy jake and a host of others had permanent camps in the mountains...basically they lived there....they had no jobs..no visible means of support (by today's standards they were homeless)...they had no income from their mines ....yet they had money for food...supplies...mining equipment...horses...burros..etc...people that saw their camps said they lived pretty good....how do you think they got all this?..not from gold or treasure they recovered out of the mountains...they got it from investors....in other words they swindled trusting people out of their money so they could carry on their search...crazy jake swindled millions and went to prison for it..if i were you i wouldn't put much faith in any maps that came from any of those guys....