Dutchman's Caches

[Idahodutch]

dutch...first thing you should think about...guys like harnish...fowler...crazy jake and a host of others had permanent camps in the mountains...basically they lived there....they had no jobs..no visible means of support (by today's standards they were homeless)...they had no income from their mines ....yet they had money for food...supplies...mining equipment...horses...burros..etc...people that saw their camps said they lived pretty good....how do you think they got all this?..not from gold or treasure they recovered out of the mountains...they got it from investors....in other words they swindled trusting people out of their money so they could carry on their search...crazy jake swindled millions and went to prison for it..if i were you i wouldn't put much faith in any maps that came from any of those guys....

Dave,
That is excellent advice.
So let’s do it without the map;

In response to the question I posed about what possibly could be the thing that Holmes had to get....
First clue - it was something he could carry and still hike out of that spot.
2nd clue - he was instructed to go up out of the canyon ... presumably with whatever he retrieved.
3 rd clue - Waltz’ mine is burried.
4 th clue, Waltz needed to give himself a way to positively relocate the mine in future if needed.

Holmes I believe was to go and retrieve a Viewing scope of sorts.
And was told to go up to the low ridge, where it overlooks the western most ravine, to locate the small markers Waltz put in .... like crosshairs without the center.

Ok guys ..... remember .... if you find it, I get one chunk.
This way, we leave Pierce alone.

Edit: I don’t think Holmes knew what he was to retrieve, or he could have maybe skipped finding the hidden camp.

 

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[azdave35]

Dave,
That is excellent advice.
So let’s do it without the map;

In response to the question I posed about what possibly could be the thing that Holmes had to get....
First clue - it was something he could carry and still hike out of that spot.
2nd clue - he was instructed to go up out of the canyon ... presumably with whatever he retrieved.
3 rd clue - Waltz’ mine is burried.
4 th clue, Waltz needed to give himself a way to positively relocate the mine in future if needed.

Holmes I believe went and retrieved a Viewing scope of sorts.
And was told to go up to the low ridge, where it overlooks the western most ravine, to locate the small markers Waltz put in .... like crosshairs without the center.

Ok guys ..... remember .... if you find it, I get one chunk.
This way, we leave Pierce alone.

dutch..i dont think your area was where Holmes was searching....if you want to know where holmes search area was....figure out where clay worst was searching.....he and brownie holmes were partners up until brownie died...whatever he got from his dad he told clay

 

[Idahodutch]

dutch..i dont think your area was where Holmes was searching....if you want to know where holmes search area was....figure out where clay worst was searching.....he and brownie holmes were partners up until brownie died...whatever he got from his dad he told clay

Dave ....... At this point, it doesn’t really matter where Holmes searched. He never found it.
And I think if you were to ask Clay ... if he has followed this progression, he might tell you he switched areas now.

There isn’t any doubt in my mind, this is where Waltz puts it through the clues.
And WOW, do they ever, and they have taken us to this spot that we are looking at now.
No matter if empty or full, it’s the site of the LDM

If you would like to go review Holmes search area some more. That’s alright with me, but I will stick with this search.

 

[azdave35]

Dave ....... At this point, it doesn’t really matter where Holmes searched. He never found it.
And I think if you were to ask Clay ... if he has followed this progression, he might tell you he switched areas now.

There isn’t any doubt in my mind, this is where Waltz puts it through the clues.
And WOW, do they ever, and they have taken us to this spot that we are looking at now.
No matter if empty or full, it’s the site of the LDM

If you would like to go review Holmes search area some more. That’s alright with me, but I will stick with this search.

dutch...i've never wasted a second of time looking for the ldm and never will...partly because of what an old timer told me back in the early 80's...and partly because i have no doubt the ldm is not lost anymore...it has been found and worked...i guess i'll have to start calling it the found dutchman mine (or FDM) for short

 

[markmar]

IMHO, what Waltz meant as a canyon which Holmes had to follow from its mouth and back, below the low ridge, in reality that canyon is a ledge which has above the cliff face of the low ridge and below some big boulders. It's like a corridor between a rocky place.The back of this " canyon " is a dead end because has the gulch which separate the mine from the camp. Nobody can see this corridor unless is in front of its mouth.

 

[Idahodutch]

IMHO, what Waltz meant as a canyon which Holmes had to follow from its mouth and back, below the low ridge, in reality that canyon is a ledge which has above the cliff face of the low ridge and below some big boulders. It's like a corridor between a rocky place.The back of this " canyon " is a dead end because has the gulch which separate the mine from the camp. Nobody can see this corridor unless is in front of its mouth.

Good afternoon Markmar,
I am glad that you are looking at clues, it’s changing or ignoring them that leads astray.
We have some pretty savvy Dutch hunters, and many of them are quick to point out ifclues are being distorted.

I welcome all such scrutiny, as long as the person doing the scrutiny ... is not trying to twist a clue, or add to it.

Perhaps you could tell us how Four Peaks view is impossible ...
a clue is a clue. Just like how to find camp.
If you have something with clue application, I welcome it. Just stick to clue.

 

[Idahodutch]

Ok, little calmer now ....
Markmar, if you would like, i would be happy to explain the application of English, when reading that clue.

The canyon below you ..... He is talking about something in canyon.

..... mouth of canyon....he is referencing SAME canyon.
Not a hidden ledge or something else.
He meant SAME canyon.

The direct path is along the drainage path ....
you won’t see it (referencing the hidden camp) until you are almost upon it.
Has Holmes been directed to veer off path? No.
Told to go up until see camp.

I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Edit: there is another part of that clue, that helps for understanding that all this is SAME canyon; when he says you can’t get down that way ... to steep.
What is too steep .... is the SAME canyon he is referencing.

So he says ... go around to the mouth, and back .... back where?
Back up SAME canyon.

 

[Idahodutch]

Markmar, I did like that you brought up that corridor under the shelf.
Would be interesting to check out.
Maybe someday.
I don’t think the mine is in it though, but who knows, might be hard to see from above on the low ridge...... with whatever Holmes was to retrieve.

 

[Idahodutch]

Markmar, I did like that you brought up that corridor under the shelf.
Would be interesting to check out.
Maybe someday.
I don’t think the mine is in it though, but who knows, might be hard to see from above on the low ridge...... with whatever Holmes was to retrieve.

Markmar,
After going up from hidden camp, is only my theory, and I know you have spent much time with Waltz Map.

You also have done lots of research, AND you are not restricted by any clues
All theories are welcome

It is only parts covered by clues, where needs be dictated by them

 

[coazon de oro]

I have a question to put out there .... in reading that snip from Holmes manuscript ...
What might be at Waltz’ hidden camp, that Waltz kept there, that would prevent finding the mine, if Holmes didn’t have it?

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Howdy Idahodutch,

Waltz was talking about his mining tools being in his camp. Holmes would need them to uncover the mine.

Homar

 

[Idahodutch]

Howdy Idahodutch,

Waltz was talking about his mining tools being in his camp. Holmes would need them to uncover the mine.

Homar

Hello Homar,
Very good point.

 

[Idahodutch]

Homar,
The simple answer, is a good choice.

Got me thinking, if I had buried a mine, so good that no way to tell the spot ..... he even said, sometimes he even has a hard time locating it.

He must have devised a method easy to remember, one that would not be altered by time. Probably said to self, this ain’t going to happen again

He said you have to have this to find it.
When Waltz has the hard time finding it, I don’t think he was going to dig it up, but just wanted to make sure it was undisturbed. He might not have even buried it yet.

I am really leaning to maybe not binoculars, but something used for field locating spot.
Maybe not. Not much to go on for the last little bit of the trail.

Edit:
Wasn’t going to mention, pure speculation, but to me it indicates things about the field location. It must be big enough, to make it so frustrating to locate an open mine ....
Can see military trail from the spot.... so have to also be able to see out yonder .... beyond needle canyon maybe. Sounds like it kind of out in the open.

 

[Idahodutch]

Matthew,
I am relatively certain that LDM isn’t at Harnish’s tunnel audits.

Edit: maybe some good stuff was up there, but not LDM imo

 

[markmar]

Ok, little calmer now ....
Markmar, if you would like, i would be happy to explain the application of English, when reading that clue.

The canyon below you ..... He is talking about something in canyon.

..... mouth of canyon....he is referencing SAME canyon.
Not a hidden ledge or something else.
He meant SAME canyon.

The direct path is along the drainage path ....
you won’t see it (referencing the hidden camp) until you are almost upon it.
Has Holmes been directed to veer off path? No.
Told to go up until see camp.

I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Edit: there is another part of that clue, that helps for understanding that all this is SAME canyon; when he says you can’t get down that way ... to steep.
What is too steep .... is the SAME canyon he is referencing.

So he says ... go around to the mouth, and back .... back where?
Back up SAME canyon.

Maybe you believe are you talking to a disabled person. You found a place from which could be seen one peak of the Four Peaks and you made what is possible to convince us you have found the place which is described in Holmes route.
Ok, you have matched a clue but you missed a dozen other.

Sincerely, Marius

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I have never used GE (Google Earth) or any of the other similar satellite programs so I can't speak to how valuable they are to finding something in rough terrain. I can tell you from boots firmly on the ground it is sometimes very difficult.

No one knows who first worked this mine or when. The shaft goes down a little over 20 feet and then widens out where a vein of quartz was being worked. The sides of the shaft were shored up with wood cut from the surrounding desert. From inside you have the feeling of being at the bottom of a well and the reason for the shoreing is clear.
The old mine was covered over with logs also cut from the desert and hidden with brush and rocks to mask the shaft. Once covered over you could walk within 15 feet of it and not realize it was there. Even when open I don't believe GE would be able to distinguish the shaft.

The mine is located not far from this landmark, the arch on the east side of Peters Mesa just above Peters canyon and with Tortilla Mountain in the background to the east.

This shows just how hard it is to find something back in those mountains and how easy it would have been for Waltz to hide his mine and caches.

 

[Idahodutch]

Maybe you believe are you talking to a disabled person. You found a place from which could be seen one peak of the Four Peaks and you made what is possible to convince us you have found the place which is described in Holmes route.
Ok, you have matched a clue but you missed a dozen other.

Sincerely, Marius

Clues are clues. You like to change them.
At first, I was a little intimidated, by all the different treasure stories you study.
I study 1

I don’t think you are disabled, have never seen you, that I know of.
You like to taunt, but I don’t think that is a disability.

If you want to taunt, I cannot stop you, but it does get old.
I hope you find what you’re looking for.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Edit: thank you Markmar, for acknowledging that the Four Peaks clue is not impossible.
I am not your enemy.

 

[markmar]

Clues are clues. You like to change them.
At first, I was a little intimidated, by all the different treasure stories you study.
I study 1

I don’t think you are disabled, have never seen you, that I know of.
You like to taunt, but I don’t think that is a disability.

If you want to taunt, I cannot stop you, but it does get old.
I hope you find what you’re looking for.
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Edit: thank you Markmar, for acknowledging that the Four Peaks clue is not impossible.
I am not your enemy.

I don't like to change clues, but only tell them like they are. If the clues told by Waltz were literally accurate , then the LDM would been found long time ago.
The only thing I'm studying now, is the people's behavior, mindset and conception in regards to treasure hunting.
And I don't make any discrimination between friends and enemies. To me, they always are walking on a straight line before step on the one side or the other.

 

[Idahodutch]

Clues

I don't like to change clues, but only tell them like they are. If the clues told by Waltz were literally accurate , then the LDM would been found long time ago.
The only thing I'm studying now, is the people's behavior, mindset and conception in regards to treasure hunting.
And I don't make any discrimination between friends and enemies. To me, they always are walking on a straight line before step on the one side or the other.

I am thinking where we differ, on clues, has to do with how we treat the clues.
One person trusts them, another does not.

In my experience, the clues from Waltz, are very accurate. My search has been around Waltz clues for most part. Had I not already experienced accuracy of clues, I might not have ever driven from Oregon to Apache Junction, and got packed in, to see the view.

And probably none of us would be looking at this ravine.
I grew up hiking and camping in the Superstitions. In that terrain, one slight change of a detail, can put you miles off course, looking for next clue.

The only way to know if the clues are good ..... first you would have to follow them, as if completely accurate. This is how they are tested.
If a clue has multiple options... all must be explored. Which ever option gets to next clue, is the one. Take it and keep going.
Not testing out, can lead to wrong place.

The results of the search tell the rest of the story.

 

[Idahodutch]

I hope everybody had a Good Friday

Many here, feel if clues were accurate, LDM would have been found long ago.

I have pondered as to why this didn’t happen.
A lot of valuable information has come foreword, giving insights into how it was and impacts on searching.

Access to the area in order to search and test clues, was not available. Harnish blocked folks out ..... for a very long time.
If a guy wanted to search that area, was risking his life, or at least have very uncomfortable clashes. Bullies ... they have been around since time began.

The information from Holmes Manuscript, came late to scene, for many searchers. It acts as a confirmation, as two different routes to get somewhere can provide. Details from the Manuscript, are very exciting, when you have confirmation of the area. This availability came after wilderness enacted for many. becoming Wilderness Area didn’t help at all.

Trust of the clues ... mishandling clues, due to not trusting, can thwart any search.

Probably many other factors, but in hindsight, it is no surprise how it stayed hidden. It had been removed from the playing board for most searchers, during that critical time period before the Wilderness deadline.

All done editing

 

[markmar]

I have never used GE (Google Earth) or any of the other similar satellite programs so I can't speak to how valuable they are to finding something in rough terrain. I can tell you from boots firmly on the ground it is sometimes very difficult.
View attachment 1915096
No one knows who first worked this mine or when. The shaft goes down a little over 20 feet and then widens out where a vein of quartz was being worked. The sides of the shaft were shored up with wood cut from the surrounding desert. From inside you have the feeling of being at the bottom of a well and the reason for the shoreing is clear.
The old mine was covered over with logs also cut from the desert and hidden with brush and rocks to mask the shaft. Once covered over you could walk within 15 feet of it and not realize it was there. Even when open I don't believe GE would be able to distinguish the shaft.
View attachment 1915097
The mine is located not far from this landmark, the arch on the east side of Peters Mesa just above Peters canyon and with Tortilla Mountain in the background to the east.

This shows just how hard it is to find something back in those mountains and how easy it would have been for Waltz to hide his mine and caches.

Hi Matthew

Looks like mina del Cristo. Has a large Saguaro near by to the SE ?