Father C. Polzer and the Tumlinson Stones

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe, is that with what is left of my missing steak ??

Fr Polzer needs no applogists, he was what he was and posted accordingly.

As far as the Vatican files, they have been purged. Amy spent considerable time in there looking for Tayopa related articles with zero sucesss.. The Jesuits also have a multi layered set of files, many are for those in the Society with a need to know only. Can you find any reference to Jesuit inspired insurrections

 

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[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

I am a fan of the Jesuit treasure/mine stories. After all, for many years I was a believer. I have read most of the stories and even did a little searching. I don't have Nentvig's here at the store, but I don't think I made the same connection as you have, which I highlighted above. I will pull out his book when I get home and review the notations of mines.

If you make it to the Rendezvous, I hope you will set aside a little time to visit us in Lake Havasu. Believe you could find some interesting Little Big Horn books to keep you busy.

I am surprised that you did not make the connection, which took me a couple of years to catch it, but I am much slower on the uptake than you are. It is not immediately clear in Nentvig's work, yet if you read it carefully it becomes quite clear. Nentvig lists the Spanish mining settlements in a separate chapter from the missions, which have their mines included. If these mines listed WITH the missions really belonged to the Spanish, why would he have bothered to include a separate chapter for Spanish mining settlements? It would have taken but the addition of a word or two to point out that any mines listed WITH the missions belonged to some Spaniards, and in fact he may have done so in one or two cases.

You will need to go home to find the book, though it is available online, and I will explain why. Here is the chapter on Spanish mining settlements,

　
9.2. Mining Camps and Settlements of Spaniards
Settlements

and of course the chapter on the Jesuit missions, which includes the listing of several mines HAS BEEN DELETED FROM THE U OF A SITE! The title remains in the 'contents' but they have renumbered the chapters and removed the entire chapter covering the Jesuit Missions. A footnote on the newly inserted replacement chapter <which is supposed to be chapter 5> says,

"The secret will remain with me."

Anyone curious can visit the page with the table of contents, note that chapter 7 is supposed to be The Jesuit Missions, and if you click on it, you get a chapter titled Indian Tribes <originally chapter 5> instead. Pages 67 to 107 have been REMOVED from the web. So the whitewash continues. Anyway in that now-missing chapter you can find several mines listed WITH various missions including with Guevavi, that is "not being worked" at the time of his writing. This effort to hide the truth about the Jesuit missions is not even well done, they forgot about the page numbers, as happened with a vital record relating to the Custer fight.

I wish we did have more time, so we could stop by your place, and it would be worth the visit even if you did not have that superb library in your war room! <two thumbs up!> I do have quite a collection now on Custer and his famous battle, had to buy my own microfilm viewer for some of it so the 'investment' in this project just keeps growing, hope it will repay at some point! (haha)

Apologies to the thread owner for drifting so far off topic. Please do continue, and if necessary feel free to delete my off topic posts.

　
　
.
　

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


I am surprised that you did not make the connection, which took me a couple of years to catch it, but I am much slower on the uptake than you are. It is not immediately clear in Nentvig's work, yet if you read it carefully it becomes quite clear. Nentvig lists the Spanish mining settlements in a separate chapter from the missions, which have their mines included. If these mines listed WITH the missions really belonged to the Spanish, why would he have bothered to include a separate chapter for Spanish mining settlements? It would have taken but the addition of a word or two to point out that any mines listed WITH the missions belonged to some Spaniards, and in fact he may have done so in one or two cases.

You will need to go home to find the book, though it is available online, and I will explain why. Here is the chapter on Spanish mining settlements,

　
[/SIZE]9.2. Mining Camps and Settlements of Spaniards
Settlements

and of course the chapter on the Jesuit missions, which includes the listing of several mines HAS BEEN DELETED FROM THE U OF A SITE! The title remains in the 'contents' but they have renumbered the chapters and removed the entire chapter covering the Jesuit Missions. A footnote on the newly inserted replacement chapter <which is supposed to be chapter 5> says,

"The secret will remain with me."

Anyone curious can visit the page with the table of contents, note that chapter 7 is supposed to be The Jesuit Missions, and if you click on it, you get a chapter titled Indian Tribes <originally chapter 5> instead. Pages 67 to 107 have been REMOVED from the web. So the whitewash continues. Anyway in that now-missing chapter you can find several mines listed WITH various missions including with Guevavi, that is "not being worked" at the time of his writing. This effort to hide the truth about the Jesuit missions is not even well done, they forgot about the page numbers, as happened with a vital record relating to the Custer fight.

I wish we did have more time, so we could stop by your place, and it would be worth the visit even if you did not have that superb library in your war room! <two thumbs up!> I do have quite a collection now on Custer and his famous battle, had to buy my own microfilm viewer for some of it so the 'investment' in this project just keeps growing, hope it will repay at some point! (haha)

Apologies to the thread owner for drifting so far off topic. Please do continue, and if necessary feel free to delete my off topic posts.

　
　
.
　

Roy,

I have reread every mention of mines or mining in "Rudo Ensayo" and found nothing that hints that the Jesuits were involved in the mines mentioned.

"Nentvig lists the Spanish mining settlements in a separate chapter from the missions, which have their mines included. If these mines listed WITH the missions really belonged to the Spanish, why would he have bothered to include a separate chapter for Spanish mining settlements?"

Not sure what you are talking about here. Perhaps he was writing about known illegal mines and those attached to settlements. In any case, nothing written can be tied to Jesuit ownership or operation, in my opinion. I would like to have the quotes that differ from that opinion brought to my attention, if you have the time.

Thanks ahead of time.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Having reread the entire book now, I see it as a travelogue, and nothing more. I don't see the smoking gun that you do. A specific quote(s) might open my eyes.

See you soon.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Roy,

Having reread the entire book now, I see it as a travelogue, and nothing more. I don't see the smoking gun that you do. A specific quote(s) might open my eyes.

See you soon.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

How about this: the very first two paragraphs of Rudo Ensayo:

It appears that this region was named Sonora from the beginning. The name was first given to either the principal valley or the old mining district of San Juan Bautista de Sonora, seat of the curacy, abandoned at present, not because its rich ores have been exhausted, but partly because the shafts were flooded and partly because of the incessant hostilities of the Apaches.

Although I know nothing of the etymology or origin of the name Sonora, I do not believe I am deceiving myself in being inclined to think it may have been suggested by her great wealth, the news of which swept sonorously across New Spain and into Europe. Perhaps the name might have been given accidentally as has been the case with other provinces of the New World. Still, Sonora, in spite of being assailed by the Apaches, has not failed, nor is she now failing, to conform to the prophecy of the poet who wrote Conveniunt rebus nomina saepe suis. And as the sound waves of gold and silver spread, so has the fame of Sonora, for there is no portion of this province that does not offer these precious metals, almost on the surface, to those who have the patience to dig and separate the ore from the dirt, or, as it were, the wheat from the chaff. There is an inexhaustible source of these and other metals.

Why does the very first two paragraphs of Rudo Ensayo, and his first and foremost observation of Sonora have to do with mining, with gold/silver, with ore, with "precious metals"?

Why, for example, didn't he discuss the very problematic task of teaching Christianity in the new world? Wouldn't that be more important?

Or the flora, the flauna?

Or the indigenous people?

The desert?

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Joe,

How about this: the very first two paragraphs of Rudo Ensayo:



Why does the very first two paragraphs of Rudo Ensayo, and his first and foremost observation of Sonora have to do with mining, with gold/silver, with ore, with "precious metals"?

Why, for example, didn't he discuss the very problematic task of teaching Christianity in the new world? Wouldn't that be more important?

Or the flora, the flauna?

Or the indigenous people?

The desert?

Deducer,

I believe it's because gold and silver were the primary reason for Spain being there. Elsewhere, I believe he hints that this was meant as a report to the crown. If so, that would explain a great deal as to the direction of the information.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

I believe it's because gold and silver were the primary reason for Spain being there. Elsewhere, I believe he hints that this was meant as a report to the crown. If so, that would explain a great deal as to the direction of the information.

Take care,

Joe

Some things to think about:

Most importantly, everything Nentvig discusses in the first two paragraph violates the precepts of 1699, 1716, and especially 1747 ("no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining either directly or indirectly.")

Wouldn't the crown be more interested in his reporting on the progress in spreading Christianity? After all, that was what he and all other Jesuits received a stipend from the crown for doing so?

Additionally why is he waxing poetic about gold/silver (n rather than being scornful of material wealth as a man of God supposedly would be? Does not this phrase: as the sound waves of gold and silver spread, so has the fame of Sonora sound just a bit poetic?

 

[sdcfia]

Some things to think about:

Most importantly, everything Nentvig discusses in the first two paragraph violates the precepts of 1699, 1716, and especially 1747 ("no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining either directly or indirectly.")

Wouldn't the crown be more interested in his reporting on the progress in spreading Christianity? After all, that was what he and all other Jesuits received a stipend from the crown for doing so?

Additionally why is he waxing poetic about gold/silver (n rather than being scornful of material wealth as a man of God supposedly would be? Does not this phrase: as the sound waves of gold and silver spread, so has the fame of Sonora sound just a bit poetic?

I would think that since the region was already famous for mining, it would next to impossible to not have an "indirect knowledge" of the activity. Technically, you're correct - mentioning the obvious Spanish activities was likely a minor technical violation. More to the point, I would also think that if the Jesuits were surreptitiously directly involved in illegal mining themselves, why would he make any mention of it at all?

 

[cactusjumper]

Some things to think about:

Most importantly, everything Nentvig discusses in the first two paragraph violates the precepts of 1699, 1716, and especially 1747 ("no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining either directly or indirectly.")

Wouldn't the crown be more interested in his reporting on the progress in spreading Christianity? After all, that was what he and all other Jesuits received a stipend from the crown for doing so?

Additionally why is he waxing poetic about gold/silver (n rather than being scornful of material wealth as a man of God supposedly would be? Does not this phrase: as the sound waves of gold and silver spread, so has the fame of Sonora sound just a bit poetic?

deducer,

Nentvig's manuscript was written for Viceroy Marquis de Cruillas. It was accompanied by a map of Sonora, which was drawn (basically) by Father Middendorff.

The primary reason for the Spanish presence in the New World was......treasure/gold/silver. All news of the new frontier was slanted towards keeping the crown interested in staying there. If that happened, the Jesuits could mine for all heathen souls you could count, thus insuring their easy passage into heaven. Whatever it took, the end justified the means.

There is no smoking gun from Nentvig's writings proving Jesuit treaslure/mining. He was giving the Viceroy what he wanted to hear (see).

It seems like a lot of wishful thinking among treasure hunters.

On the other hand, maybe it's all true.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

A long winded one, I must ask your indulgence in advance

Cactusjumper wrote

There is no smoking gun from Nentvig's writings proving Jesuit treaslure/mining. He was giving the Viceroy what he wanted to hear (see).

It seems like a lot of wishful thinking among treasure hunters.

Perhaps a re-read of Rudo Ensayo IS in order for you Joe. This time, note that he carefully lists the Spanish mining settlements, in a separate chapter. If the mines listed with the missions do not belong to the missions, WHY does he bother to list the Spanish mines separately? Even in the chapter on the missions, Nentvig makes it a point to mention when some Spanish cattlemen are operating in some point, or that a village of Spaniards is in some place, meanwhile dozens of Indian settlements, mines and missions are likewise described. Nentvig was somewhat a racist, which is normal for his time, and he carefully notes the different 'races' in each place. If those mines listed with the missions do not belong to those missions, why did not Nentvig mention that they belong to some Spaniards? He certainly did for many others.

I must also respectfully disagree that Nentvig did not provide a "smoking gun" for he even describes how the missionary padres could not convince an Indian to reveal the location of a silver vein, even after making promises and trying to 'cajol' them. If the padres were not trying to find the mines, why would he mention this?

I do not know if this will work but here are a few examples, there are a number of others in Rudo Ensayo, note the paragraph telling of how richly the mud brick mission churches were decorated - and not just the main missions be even the little visitas!





Perhaps you have forgotten the other examples, there were several mines owned OPENLY by the Jesuits listed in the Catholic study, The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767, or that Polzer himself mentioned that "two cases" were found of padres mining but added that they were "punished' - and none of these discovered the instance found by West, of a mine owned and operated by a Jesuit mission which he likewise presumed to be unique.

Further, we have mines which are NOT lost, but at one time were in the same category as those that are not found today, such as the Wandering Jew, the Montezuma, the Salero, the Ostrich aka 'Old Padres', Tayopa and even (arguably) the Vekol. These were lost Jesuit mines, and were found in the decades after the US gained possession of Arizona, specifically after the Gadsden purchase. According to those who rediscovered these lost mines, in several cases the lucky finders had the help of documents they found in the old Jesuit missions, as well as the help of friendly Pimas.

You found the Jesuit description of the Spanish royal authorities search for hidden wealth (in Mexico city or Puebla) quite entertaining, as did I - now WHY do you suppose the Spanish royal authorities were searching for treasures?

Then we have the revelations from father Segesser,extracts from his private letters to his brother in Switzerland, posted previously in another thread but just to jog memories here it is:

Here in the silver mountains there are hardly any silver spoons among us Fathers Missionaries, such as yesterday when I was called to Hímuri to another Father to discuss some business with the Honorable Capitan of this Pimería alta. We four at at the table had not more than two spoons, one fork, and one knife, the little salt was in a broken husk of a fruit. A Dios. From a letter written shortly after Segesser had arrived at San Xavier del Bac mission - he is in the "silver mountains" yet has few silver eating utensils.

Segesser was at that moment at San Xavier del Bac in Arizona, near todays Tucson.

What I have requested from the Juncker Brother to have sent to me, I await to receive with the greatest desire. The Juncker Brother should not forget to deliver the shotguns, and perhaps one for the small birds built in the same manner, which would be very useful here insofar as the the same birds as in Europe, like the finches, are found here, particularly small pigeons, which no one either catchs or eats. Could the Juncker Brother also send me a little mold with a strong bottom or something like that where small pellets can be poured in. Here there is as much lead as silver.
One sugar scale, if available with yellow [brass] weights. And if possible, a gold scale, also with the weights. and

Would the Juncker Brother cover everything that is out of iron with tallow, or, even better, cover it with chalk.
Tools out of iron [cont.]
2 little ladles
1 little roast spit
1 sugar scale
1 gold scale, if it is not too expensive

Two separate requests for a GOLD SCALE. Handy thing when you are running precious metals mines.

??
??
The many affairs, the constant couriers (in the year 1753, two reams of paper did not suffice to answer letters and to write new letters, so that I do not even find time for the breviary and other spiritual exercises), the ceaseless daily guests; among whom are the most important people of these provinces such as governors, local officials, military officers, all with very many servants, who use my mission without ever paying for even the smallest thing. All these exhaust me to such an extent that I frequently do not know where my head is. I must take care of and arrange everything that concerns kitchen, garden, fields, seedling box, cattle and horses, chickens, doves, geese, pigs, and mule. In a word, both church and household all depend on me. I can find no loyal servants in this land, because they quickly become arrogant and demand that the missionary wait on them. In addition they cost five to six hundred Spanish thalers, and that requires much sweat and toil to obtain.

Because of the constant unrest among the Indians, one cannot work in the silver and gold mines. Last week eighty Apache attacked and killed a pastor and seven servants who were traveling from his parish house to the home of a sick person to hear a confession. Apache on one side surround my mission, Seri on the other side. Also, some of the PIma are hostil and cause me very great damage.

< A Jesuit Missionary in Eighteenth-Century Sonora: The Family Correspondence, By Raymond H. Thompson
pp295-296>

So we have numerous sources pointing to the Jesuits as the pioneer prospectors and miners in the southwest, a Jesuit padre complaining that he cannot work the silver and gold mines, mounds of smelting slag found at several missions, smelting slag built right into the walls of later Franciscan missions, evidence of metal casting at Guevavi, father Kino's own letter in which he complained of losing a shipment of over 800 ounces of silver, the Catholic study which listed some mines owned openly, the mines which were FOUND but were lost and attributed to Jesuits, and let us not forget the impressive smelting works at Cananea in Sonora, built by the Jesuits, and Cananea also boasts of the very first mining claims in their district were by Jesuits.

　
So now that I have hijacked this thread completely, I can not fathom how to tie it back in to father Polzer and his opinion of the stone maps except to say that while he may have had motive to cover up Jesuit mining activities, there is nothing on the stone maps that is undeniably Jesuit so he would not have any reason to make a false assessment of them.

　
Apologies to the thread owner again, and of course feel free to delete my off topic posts.
　

 

[Real of Tayopa]

no way Roy, there would be much screaming and kicking, what you have posted is indicative of Polzers thinking. I personally liked him have no idea on his thoughts, if any, on"Reavis" ( hehe ) stone map.]

He diied while awaiting reconstructive surgery at the Jesuit hospital in Santa Barbara, Calif. He had finished with his preoperative procedures an had retired to his room. When they went for him for his turn, they found him dead, we lost a valuable source of information,and in my case a beginning frendship.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I reread Rudo Ensayo yesterday, so it is still fresh in my mind. I find there are other explanations for everything you have cited. I have already stated that there is documented evidence for mission ownership of a (very) few mines. I find everything else to be circumstantial. I believe I have read a great deal, both pro and con, concerning their time in the Southwest and other places.

I have no problem with those who have reached other conclusions than mine. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

I believe I could write a very believable story on Jesuit treasure, complete with historically accurate details. Think I may have already done that......somewhere. Believe a lot of folks would believe it. Probably start another great Jesuit treasure hunt. After all, we all want to believe in a great Jesuit treasure.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Found it. The story starts here:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real-19.html

The conversation/story goes on for a number of pages.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[somehiker]

"Apologies to the thread owner again."

Not a problem Roy, since there is little chance I believe, that Polzer himself gave the stones anything more than a cursory glance.
Others probably used his good name without even having personally met the man, let alone requesting his opinion.
"Hell, I was there !" comes to mind, which many too often use in their own efforts to appear somehow more "in the know", than their peers.
Given Fr. Polzers publicized thoughts about Jesuit treasures, treasure hunters, and old missions as he wrote in My Desert Magazine back in 1962......http://mydesertmagazine.com/files/196208-DesertMagazine-1962-August.pdf , those who subsequently published their own articles probably felt safe in doing so, since it was unlikely that Polzer would challenge their assertions.

....so carry on

 

[somehiker]

Found it. The story starts here:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/jesuit-treasures/153540-jesuit-treasures-they-real-19.html

The conversation/story goes on for a number of pages.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

HAHA......I remember that one

I hear they still talk about it at the weekly Dutch Hunter "coffee klatch" in AJ.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Wayne, really did not intend to be hijacking the thread over such a long and contentious side issue.

Roy,

I reread Rudo Ensayo yesterday, so it is still fresh in my mind. I find there are other explanations for everything you have cited. I have already stated that there is documented evidence for mission ownership of a (very) few mines. I find everything else to be circumstantial. I believe I have read a great deal, both pro and con, concerning their time in the Southwest and other places.

I have no problem with those who have reached other conclusions than mine. We will just have to agree to disagree on this.

I believe I could write a very believable story on Jesuit treasure, complete with historically accurate details. Think I may have already done that......somewhere. Believe a lot of folks would believe it. Probably start another great Jesuit treasure hunt. After all, we all want to believe in a great Jesuit treasure.

Take care,

Joe

So I guess I am among those "wishful thinkers" then, and sure can agree to disagree. Perhaps I will try to post a summation of the evidence on that thread posted above, for anyone reading the discussion, as the case is not just 'circumstantial' although a great deal of the evidence is of that class. When you have the smelting slag built into the mission walls, piles of slag found at several missions, even the written letter of a Jesuit (father Segesser) complaining that he cannot work the silver mines, along with Nentvig explaining in some detail about the mines of the various missions and makes it a point to list them separate from the mines owned by the Spanish, add in the fact that you can literally stand in or on some of the formerly lost Jesuit mines like the Salero, then that circumstantial evidence should be viewed in a different light. A similar situation exists with the modern Jesuit denials of ever having owned slaves, when they were the people who introduced slaves to Sonora, and were the largest slave owners in Maryland at one point. Just because modern revisionists are trying to paint the story in a flattering way to the Jesuits, does not make it accurate.

Side point but the fact that you can indeed write a convincing fictional lost Jesuit treasure story hardly disproves the old stories that have been in circulation since the American occupation of Arizona. As a simile, I could write a fictional account of a battle of Harrisburg that took place just before Gettysburg, including loads of historical details, and although this would be a fictional account of a fictional battle, it would not mean that the battle of Gettysburg did not take place.

To tie this back in, I would speculate that even if the Peralta stones had an "I H S" on them, father Polzer would have denounced them as fakes. Jesuits are sworn to defend the Church and their Order, even against perceived slights to their reputation.

Please do continue;

 

[somehiker]

Roy:
I suspect the only way to answer the question would be to discover a treasure, publicize the discovery with or especially without mentioning any mission related items of apparent value, and see who shows up to lay claim. I would suspect that any cache found in the Superstitions, consisting of primarily pre 19th century Jesuit related items, would be of great interest to and likely claimed by the order. However........ should this scenario come about, I wonder if an admission of mining related activities would be forthcoming.....or spin.
Or a mixture of both ?

In Brother Polzer's article of Aug. 1962, I found these two paragraphs, especially the second paragraph..... very interesting.....



....given my previously shared theory as to how the stones could have been cached at the southern end of the wilderness/QC area, during Father Visitor Keller's ill fated expedition of 1743. Two were killed during the Apache raid, and his horses taken by the raiders, leaving the others with the task of giving two individuals a Christian burial, as well as likely having to create a cache of the heavier items before they could return to the Pima villages now on foot.
If Keller's notes, especially in conjunction with an astrolabe (Kino's or not), were to be found with other Jesuit related items anywhere in that area or the Sups themselves, I would consider that good evidence for my theory.

 

[deducer]

I would think that since the region was already famous for mining, it would next to impossible to not have an "indirect knowledge" of the activity. Technically, you're correct - mentioning the obvious Spanish activities was likely a minor technical violation. More to the point, I would also think that if the Jesuits were surreptitiously directly involved in illegal mining themselves, why would he make any mention of it at all?

He does not only mention it, but betray his considerable knowledge of all things mining, from the use of quicksilver to gold scales.

The three essential elements for prosecuting a suspect under US law are: means, motive, and opportunity. Examples of all three can be found in the book.

Means:

Another such silver deposit is said to exist on the skirts of the eastern mountain opposite and within sight of the Huásabas Mission. It was thought that the exact location was known to an Indian who died in 1760. However, there is a belief among the natives that he who reveals the site of a mine will soon die. Therefore, a native will not show a mine to a Spaniard for any price, regardless of how advantageous it may be to him, the native, even if the missionary pledges the fulfillment of promises made and the assurance that his life will not be shortened but the Almighty will prolong it if he has the courage to ignore a superstition more fit for old women than brave, sensible men.

Now, why would a missionary attempt to pledge fulfillment of any disclosure of a mine? Surely it couldn't have been an attempt to assist the Spanish as there was a lot of friction between the Spanish and Jesuits, over the treatment and use of the Indians.

Motive:

One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion

Opportunity:

The mission of Opodepe, ministered by the Rector Francisco Loaiza, has silver and gold mines within its district, the latter having the reputation of producing ore with the highest fineness, and I have seen a piece of gold without rocky mixture weighing seven ounces.

The last example is very telling as it refers to mines in relation to a mission and not a Spanish settlement or Spanish mining interest, which would have been the case if Nentvig was truly being an impartial observer for the viceroy.

In fact, Rudo Ensayo is very sloppy, and not well done as Nentvig himself even admitted, and there is plenty in the way of lapsus linguae.

 

[sdcfia]

He does not only mention it, but betray his considerable knowledge of all things mining, from the use of quicksilver to gold scales.

The three essential elements for prosecuting a suspect under US law are: means, motive, and opportunity. Examples of all three can be found in the book.

In fact, Rudo Ensayo is very sloppy, and not well done as Nentvig himself even admitted, and there is plenty in the way of lapsus linguae.

Slips of the tongue - Freudian or planned?

Motive, means and opportunity for proving "Jesuit mining" in the New World are easily enough acknowledged. For me, it's the "opportunity" aspect of this truth test that lacks support in the Arizona venue. I just don't find the legends of fabulous mines and enormous caches credible on several levels. If I had enough interest, I would spend considerable energy tracking down the true provenance of these stories - where, when and by whom they were first revealed. The results might prove to be enlightening.

As I've stated before, my working model is that the Jesuits may have had information pertaining to existing precious metals caches in the Southwest region. Whether they had any success locating them is anybody's guess. If they did find them, I suspect the "legends" may be intentional disinformation intended to send the curious into perpetual circles. Who knows? Regardless, it seems extremely unlikely to me that the mines and caches as described in those "legends" could have either been kept secret from the Spanish at the time, or would have later been lost to the Jesuits.

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Wayne, really did not intend to be hijacking the thread over such a long and contentious side issue.



So I guess I am among those "wishful thinkers" then, and sure can agree to disagree. Perhaps I will try to post a summation of the evidence on that thread posted above, for anyone reading the discussion, as the case is not just 'circumstantial' although a great deal of the evidence is of that class. When you have the smelting slag built into the mission walls, piles of slag found at several missions, even the written letter of a Jesuit (father Segesser) complaining that he cannot work the silver mines, along with Nentvig explaining in some detail about the mines of the various missions and makes it a point to list them separate from the mines owned by the Spanish, add in the fact that you can literally stand in or on some of the formerly lost Jesuit mines like the Salero, then that circumstantial evidence should be viewed in a different light. A similar situation exists with the modern Jesuit denials of ever having owned slaves, when they were the people who introduced slaves to Sonora, and were the largest slave owners in Maryland at one point. Just because modern revisionists are trying to paint the story in a flattering way to the Jesuits, does not make it accurate.

Side point but the fact that you can indeed write a convincing fictional lost Jesuit treasure story hardly disproves the old stories that have been in circulation since the American occupation of Arizona. As a simile, I could write a fictional account of a battle of Harrisburg that took place just before Gettysburg, including loads of historical details, and although this would be a fictional account of a fictional battle, it would not mean that the battle of Gettysburg did not take place.

To tie this back in, I would speculate that even if the Peralta stones had an "I H S" on them, father Polzer would have denounced them as fakes. Jesuits are sworn to defend the Church and their Order, even against perceived slights to their reputation.

Please do continue;

Roy,

My only reason for writing that little story were to prove that a convincing fictional story could be penned without truth being at its core. By using true historical facts and legitimate geographical locations, it would not be all that difficult to make "wishful thinkers" believe the story. I count myself as a wishful thinker.

One thing I do believe, is that the Jesuits did what they had to for survival. If that went against the "rules", they were intelligent enough to work their way around it. They were men, not angels nor saints, just men in a very hard place. That means there is room for what you and many others believe about them. I am not convinced by the evidence you and others have presented. I believe there could be explanations that lead into another direction or explanation.

Nothing would make me happier than to see you, Don Jose or anyone else prove the stories correct. That would include my story which, I believe, has many truths in it.

Hope to see you soon.

Take care,

Joe