Father C. Polzer and the Tumlinson Stones

[azdave35]

That particular map came from the Noss family, possibly an original possession of Milton Noss himself. Noss of course was a serial liar, notorious con man, violent offender and textbook sociopath. Just sayin'.

Until someone can manage to scientifically test any of these "almacen" treasure maps in a forensic lab in an attempt to establish their provenance, we have to ask ourselves some mighty penetrating questions about them - questions that many of us probably would prefer to ignore. For starters, if any of these documents are genuine, just how in the hell did such ostensibly monumentally valuable charts manage to slip away from their creators, find their ways into the hands of other parties, then later find their way to the general public? Same questions apply even if these things are modern day copies of older originals - how is it that guys like you, me and many others have them in our sweaty hands? Were we just born lucky?

Human nature never changes. Those who preceded us were not stupid, naive or careless. If the caches exist, riches of this magnitude were/are protected with numerous layers of security, IMO. One of the most effective methods of securing a valuable cache is to take advantage of human nature and allow disinformation to "leak" its location. I happen to believe there is likely some truth behind the cache legends - what, I don't know, but I suspect that if they're real, they remain safely hidden. Of course, these "treasure maps" could be complete hoaxes created by clever people with a good knowledge of history and cartography too. On the other hand, they also could simply be "half real" - enough good information to convince the curious, but not enough to direct them to the prize. Go west, young man. Ooops, perhaps I should have said east.

To me, the real curiosities are: who hid the goods, and if it's still hidden, why? Lost? Waiting?

at least 90% of these treasure maps are fake...and the 10% that are the real deal are only good to the person that made it...they didnt make a map so someone on a treasure forum could find their treasure 100 years later..they made the map so THEY could get back to the treasure

 

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[somehiker]

Not to answer for Don Jose, but I had found an English publication dating to the 1760's in which this Jesuit plot to betray Spanish America was discussed, including the island off Chile which was to go to the English as a part of the deal. The Dutch at the time were still a world power, and the Jesuits were keeping a large amount of money in Dutch banks. The obvious goal would have been for the Dutch to get exclusive trading rights, while the Jesuits would be allowed to set up their own theocratic state as they had done in Paraguay just a few years earlier. The Spanish military presence was not terribly strong, for instance at the presidio of Tubac the garrison was a single company strong, and expected to police southern Arizona and northern Sonora as well as defend against Apaches, Seris etc at the same time. It would not have taken a very large military force to overcome the Spanish forces in most of America, nor require the support of all the other Orders. A few Judas-es in key areas would be all they required. The English article is posted somewhere in that other thread Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?, if you like when I have more time I can hunt it up for you, the author seemed a bit surprised and pleased that the faithful padres would be willing to betray Spain.

That's OK Roy, you didn't.
I'm questioning Joseph's assertion that the Jesuits and the Franciscans were working together on a conspiracy to accumulate wealth.
That the Franciscans could have co-operated with any Jesuit plans to save up for an insurrection plot, seems mighty far fetched to me.

 

[deducer]

That's OK Roy, you didn't.
I'm questioning Joseph's assertion that the Jesuits and the Franciscans were working together on a conspiracy to accumulate wealth.
That the Franciscans could have co-operated with any Jesuit plans to save up for an insurrection plot, seems mighty far fetched to me.

I don't think he meant to say that the Jesuits joined up with the Franciscans for the insurrection attempt, only that they worked with the Franciscans on a strictly business basis- for example, a business agreement for keeping an almacen in Franciscan territory, although how that came to be is pretty puzzling to me.

It would be interesting to know how far west the Franciscans ventured, and if their territory encompassed the Cooke range.

 

[somehiker]

at least 90% of these treasure maps are fake...and the 10% that are the real deal are only good to the person that made it...they didnt make a map so someone on a treasure forum could find their treasure 100 years later..they made the map so THEY could get back to the treasure

Certainly true to some extent, but these forums allow a much larger audience of interested people to view maps such as this, improving the odds that someone who might recognize a feature and could then be able to develop an understanding of the area to which it applies. Perhaps even seeing through whatever deceptions the maker used.

Unlike RDT, I am not claiming I know any "truth" about this map. I'm only interested in it as to how it may not be what some believe it to be, and giving my reasons why.

I'd say the number of real maps is far less than 10% of the total, and in most cases copies are all anyone has to go on.....often hand made and poorly done as well.
How many of the maps on this site do you think could be the real deal, for example ?
Or have worked with yourself ?

Treasure Maps ? Apache Junction Public Library

 

[markmar]

That's OK Roy, you didn't.
I'm questioning Joseph's assertion that the Jesuits and the Franciscans were working together on a conspiracy to accumulate wealth.
That the Franciscans could have co-operated with any Jesuit plans to save up for an insurrection plot, seems mighty far fetched to me.

Wayne

An example of what you are looking for , I wrote in the post #3003 at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/v...o-peak-caballo-mountains-201.html#post5100390

 

[azdave35]

Certainly true to some extent, but these forums allow a much larger audience of interested people to view maps such as this, improving the odds that someone who might recognize a feature could then be able to develop an understanding of the area to which it applies. Perhaps even seeing through whatever deceptions the maker used.

Unlike RDT, I am not claiming I know any "truth" about this map. I'm only interested in it as to how it may not be what some believe it to be, and giving my reasons why.

I'd say the number of real maps is far less than 10% of the total, and in most cases copies are all anyone has to go on.....often hand made and poorly done as well.
How many of the maps on this site do you think could be the real deal, for example ?
Or have worked with yourself ?

Treasure Maps ? Apache Junction Public Library

wayne...the 90/10 figure i just pulled out of my ass..its hard telling how many of these maps are real....i looked at the maps on the site you posted..most look like the scribblings of a drunken fool..the only maps i saw that looked halfway accurate were a couple of the black top mesa maps..one by harnish and one by khiel..a friend of mine has been on treasure hunts with harnish and he was the real deal...alot of rumors have circulated about harnish...i quit treasure hunting years ago but i did it for 20 years...i never used old maps to locate treasure...i always followed the symbols left on the ground and cactus..i know more than a few people that have located treasures and none of them wasted time trying to decipher somebody else's map...too many variables in maps..your first obstacle is trying to figure if the map was real or someones idea of a joke...once you have enough evidence to convince yourself its real....then chances are its a copy...then you are taking a gamble that whoever copied it..copied it down exactly and didn't leave anything out or changed things around...once you get that far .now its time to decipher it....by this time you are in it 5 years and all you have figured out is you have a map...i know alot of treasure hunters around here and they all have a map...most of them have been working on their map for 20 or more years and they still haven't found anything...one more thing..the perfil map is real..and it is somewhere in the superstitions..but not where most people think

 

[somehiker]

Wayne

An example of what you are looking for , I wrote in the post #3003 at http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/v...o-peak-caballo-mountains-201.html#post5100390

Not really Marius.
But typical of what we are talking about, when folks rely on poorly done copies, and even poorer resolution copies of copies like the one included within your link.
That said, twelve Franciscans were the first missionaries (1524)assigned to establish missions and convert the natives. Two were named Francisco btw.
The Jesuits didn't arrive in Mexico until 1572....Sinaloa in 1591. Nuno De Guzman had previously established a town in the province, Culiacan, in 1531.
Perhaps one of the twelve Franciscans or a priest in De Guzman's entrada built the first mission at Tayopa.....?
And when the Jesuits showed up, they just kept the name.

 

[sdcfia]

Was looking forward to your input on this Sdcfia, since you are the expert on the Caballos/Cooke range.

It would be interesting to know how far west the Franciscans ventured, and if their territory encompassed the Cooke range.

Well, that's a pretty generous opinion - one that could easily be challenged, I'm sure. I have never had a good reason to set foot in the Caballo canyons, even though in the early 1980s I was privy to an extraordinary secret from a young metallurgist whose uncle confessed his Caballo sins from the 1960s to him - the uncle allegedly killed two watchers who followed him to a hidden cave full of gold bars, skeletons and rattlesnakes, located up one of the "usual suspect" canyons on the west face. The green nephew (now a high muckity-muck in a large mining company) got cold feet and decided not to act then, even though Uncle put a pin through a photo of the location and said, "Here it is - dig here." The nephew was afraid. I moved on, as I had other fish to fry in those days. I've detailed that experience on TNet years ago in another incarnation.

The Cookes Range I know. There are some big secrets in there, including alleged Aztec-era mines at Frying Pan Canyon and two other sites north of there, plenty of "Spanish treasure carvings", lots of Apache sites, ancient trails following the springs, alleged evidence of the presence of Marcos da Niza and Estavanico, some impressive cryptozoological sightings, UFO activities and more. You know - the good stuff. Presumably, the Franciscans' net would have covered the Cookes Range, as the early Spanish settlements west of the Rio Grande were at Santa Rita and Pinos Altos, only about 30 miles further to the northwest.

The Franciscans established a lock on New Mexico early - Marcos was there in the 1530s and the Coronado Expedition was stocked with Franciscan priests. Their activities mostly focused on the Pueblo communities, Santa Fe, El Paso and the Camino Real. I guess they went as far west as Zuni. Rumors are that Kino snuck into today's southern NM looking for something, but I've never seen anything to substantiate it. I've seen a map similar in some ways to the "lil map" that I believe includes the Cookes Range, but ... quien sabe?

 

[EarnieP]

For those with an interest in digging up 'treasure', have at it ...

https://archive.org/stream/worksofhubertho15banc/worksofhubertho15banc_djvu.txt

 

[Oroblanco]

[/COLOR]

<snip>

The Cookes Range I know. There are some big secrets in there, including alleged Aztec-era mines at Frying Pan Canyon and two other sites north of there, plenty of "Spanish treasure carvings", lots of Apache sites, ancient trails following the springs, alleged evidence of the presence of Marcos da Niza and Estavanico, some impressive cryptozoological sightings, UFO activities and more. You know - the good stuff. Presumably, the Franciscans' net would have covered the Cookes Range, as the early Spanish settlements west of the Rio Grande were at Santa Rita and Pinos Altos, only about 30 miles further to the northwest.

The Franciscans established a lock on New Mexico early - Marcos was there in the 1530s and the Coronado Expedition was stocked with Franciscan priests. Their activities mostly focused on the Pueblo communities, Santa Fe, El Paso and the Camino Real. I guess they went as far west as Zuni. Rumors are that Kino snuck into today's southern NM looking for something, but I've never seen anything to substantiate it. I've seen a map similar in some ways to the "lil map" that I believe includes the Cookes Range, but ... quien sabe?

Aztec era mines? Very interesting, I hope you will start a thread for discussing this topic, I would love to hear more!

Please do continue amigos,

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Hola, maps.you want treasure maps ? here is one that was posted in a very popular book by F. Dobie Although it is perhaps 90 % accurate . No-one ever solved it to my knowledge until I found the secret which led to the filing on Tayopa. Mind you, it does not specifically specify just where the mines are, you still have to look for closed mines, deliberately made to blend in with the general area, and of course as time rolled by, mom natures handiwork.

There are no visible tailings, most were in the bottom of the Barranca, nd almost 400 years had passed with many huricanes dumping their water in those barancas.

I have an older version of Tayopa somewhere in my files, I will look it up later.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

here is more information, note, there are 18 mines within 1800 meters of the mission There is much more that I can post , but for now--.

 

[audigger53]

Certainly true to some extent, but these forums allow a much larger audience of interested people to view maps such as this, improving the odds that someone who might recognize a feature and could then be able to develop an understanding of the area to which it applies. Perhaps even seeing through whatever deceptions the maker used.

Unlike RDT, I am not claiming I know any "truth" about this map. I'm only interested in it as to how it may not be what some believe it to be, and giving my reasons why.

I'd say the number of real maps is far less than 10% of the total, and in most cases copies are all anyone has to go on.....often hand made and poorly done as well.
How many of the maps on this site do you think could be the real deal, for example ?
Or have worked with yourself ?

Treasure Maps ? Apache Junction Public Library

Nice site, thanks. I wonder how much they were sold for to "other people"? Might make as much from them as if they were mining out in the hills.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Joe, and my other friends, I guess that I have failed to differentiate between the Mission Padres and the Jesuit loyal coadjuctors. The mission priest occainionallly worked a small mine but in general, intil he finally managed to get his mission self supporting, he ate dried grasshoppers as did his Flock. It was no bed of daisies.

If by accident he found a rich mine it was promptly taken over by the coadjutors who worked the ""Spanish mines "" publically, never the less, they were Jesuit mines, and the riches flowed to Rome to better the societies position

In the case of Tayopa being declared a REAL. I often wondered where they came up with that == an after the fact thingy ? If it had been declared as such, it would have been crawling with Gov't officials and it would never have been lost.

No, I believe that Tayopa was actually worked by the Jesuits themselves, through tiier co odjutors regardless of other mines It became a sort of un official head quarters. By building a deposit there with the financing, dedicated in the end, to the potential insurrection, it further confirms this..

i have posted a map of that depository, it also mentions why there were no survivors to tell of Tayopa when they had to abandon it due to the Apaches, and later the expulsion.it lists 190 bodies there. no living witnesses.

Incidentally, I have yet to find the entry, since that map is a 2 diminsion map of a three dimension object Frankly I think that I did fairly good in even figuring out where it was

 

[Roadhse2]

Real of Tayopa...A question..

First let me say I am totally clueless in all of this, but I do enjoy everyone's post immensely, the history of the areas and the knowledge presented.

I noticed you said you have not found the entry point yet...So my question is what did you use or how did you get the gov't to recognize your claim on this area?

Thanks in advance, Glen

 

[Real of Tayopa]

H Glen, It was done through a standard mining Claim

File a preliminary claim. pay your taxes, then you have 60 days to have it officially surveyed. which I did, as a normal claim.

 

[deducer]

Joe, and my other friends, I guess that I have failed to differentiate between the Mission Padres and the Jesuit loyal coadjuctors. The mission priest occainionallly worked a small mine but in general, intil he finally managed to get his mission self supporting, he ate dried grasshoppers as did his Flock. It was no bed of daisies.

If by accident he found a rich mine it was promptly taken over by the coadjutors who worked the ""Spanish mines "" publically, never the less, they were Jesuit mines, and the riches flowed to Rome to better the societies position

In the case of Tayopa being declared a REAL. I often wondered where they came up with that == an after the fact thingy ? If it had been declared as such, it would have been crawling with Gov't officials and it would never have been lost.

No, I believe that Tayopa was actually worked by the Jesuits themselves, through tiier co odjutors regardless of other mines It became a sort of un official head quarters. By building a deposit there with the financing, dedicated in the end, to the potential insurrection, it further confirms this..

i have posted a map of that depository, it also mentions why there were no survivors to tell of Tayopa when they had to abandon it due to the Apaches, and later the expulsion.it lists 490 bodies there. no living witnesses.

Incidentally, I have yet to find the entry, since that map is a 2 diminsion map of a three dimension object Frankly I think that I did fairly good in even figuring out where it was

And where did you learn about the "potential insurrection"? Any proof of this that you are able to share with us?

 

[Crowfriend]

here is more information, note, there are 18 mines within 1800 meters of the mission There is much more that I can post , but for now--.

View attachment 1371154View attachment 1371155View attachment 1371156View attachment 1371157View attachment 1371158

Greetings Real de Tayopa,
My interest in life is finding historic sites in SE AZ. and does not involve directly with mineralogy per se. What gets me going are the found objects; tools, foundations, kitchen items, anything old and rusty. Having said that, I have looked for photos you may have posted that depict the artifacts that surely were found by your endeavors in Tayopa and other places but could not find much. Have you any photos of these sorts? The aerial photo above seems to show a fairly substantial set of ruins at the Mission site (if I am interpreting them correctly) and am keenly interested in what may have been found there. A Mission bell would be high on my bucket list of great finds surpassed only by Spanish Armor. To your health CF

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Crowfriend, this is all that remains of the headquarters, The ranch is built on top of the ruins, the hill. There are reasons that we have not excavated there. I would love to excavate but there are valid reasons why not. Sorry, but finances and circumstances did / do not permit it at this time. My associates did discover a closed chamber near the hormos that conntained a seated skeleton with a broken sword on it's lap, but despite my asking they have not sent me the picture. As I mentioned that mound is the remains of the former headquarters

That is the rancho Tayopa.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Deducer, you asked --------And where did you learn about the "potential insurrection"? Any proof of this that you are able to share with us?

Deducer yes, there are several sources, but naturally none are irrefutable. -- sanitizing -- However the mere fact and the way the expulsion was executed suggests there can be no other reason.

" At such an hour, on such such a date there will be a simultaneous arrest of all of the Jesuits." this order will remain 'secret' until that time under the pain of death"

Hardly the type of an order needed for simple mining violations, but very critical to nip an insurrection in the bud. But unfortunately for the King, and especially the Padres,the Mission Padres were not at fault and had no place to flee to.

I will check my notes to see if I can recover enough data. Much was lost due to Two Hot mail accounts, and a computer crashes plus a flood a couple of years ago.

If I can locate the entrance to the depository it has a room with documents and maps, there I may find un - sanitized records.

The records from that map of the depository show almost $ 1,000,000,000 stored there,present value.

why ??

' When they had developed a very successful method of sending the bars overland to the Caballo, then on to Matamoros, via rafts on the Rio Del Norte for transshipment to Rome.