Father C. Polzer and the Tumlinson Stones

[Real of Tayopa]

me jOE i WILL MENTION COADJUTORS AGAIN, THEY WERE THE FRONT FOR WORKING THE MINES AND BUSINESSES.

 

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[cactusjumper]

me jOE i WILL MENTION COADJUTORS AGAIN, THEY WERE THE FRONT FOR WORKING THE MINES AND BUSINESSES.

Don Jose,

OK! What became of these coadjutors and their knowledge/working of these very rich mines? What became of the Indian slaves who worked those mines. Did no one think to use that knowledge to better their own lives? I don't buy that old story about bad things happening to them for giving up their knowledge. They worked the mines at every opportunity, to the determent of the mission fields.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Don Jose,

OK! What became of these coadjutors and their knowledge/working of these very rich mines? What became of the Indian slaves who worked those mines. Did no one think to use that knowledge to better their own lives? I don't buy that old story about bad things happening to them for giving up their knowledge. They worked the mines at every opportunity, to the determent of the mission fields.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

How could they work mines which didn't exist....at ANY opportunity ?
Not saying the Jesuits had or controlled the production of said mines, but your statement seems contradictory IMO.
I do agree on the "what became of" .
It falls into the same category as "why would a secretive group, church based or private, build markers and monuments that stood out like a sore thumb ?"

Regards:Wayne

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

My only reason for writing that little story were to prove that a convincing fictional story could be penned without truth being at its core. By using true historical facts and legitimate geographical locations, it would not be all that difficult to make "wishful thinkers" believe the story. I count myself as a wishful thinker.

One thing I do believe, is that the Jesuits did what they had to for survival. If that went against the "rules", they were intelligent enough to work their way around it. They were men, not angels nor saints, just men in a very hard place. That means there is room for what you and many others believe about them. I am not convinced by the evidence you and others have presented. I believe there could be explanations that lead into another direction or explanation.

Nothing would make me happier than to see you, Don Jose or anyone else prove the stories correct. That would include my story which, I believe, has many truths in it.

Hope to see you soon.

Take care,

Joe

I am going to be posting my reply in the appropriate thread, rather than to continue to hijack this one. Joe if you don't have the time or inclination to wade through another of my epistles, feel free to ignore I. Also ditto, we also are looking forward to seeing you and Carolyn again soon! I am nervous about the post office however.

On this topic, it is my opinion that the Peralta stones (just using the common and original name used to decribe them) certainly should NOT be viewed as a whole. Taken as a whole, we should be very skeptical, however it is entirely possible that while Tumlinson may have 'made his mark' carving on one or some of them, there is evidence that more than one hand executed those carvings. That means Tumlinson did NOT make all of them. Who or whom did the rest? Perhaps one or two of these stones are NOT the work of Tumlinson at all? Perhaps when the 'new news' is released to the waiting public, the other hand that created some of the carvings on the stones will be revealed? Perhaps our amigo Frank already knows?

Please do continue amigos;

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Reavis, ORO, Reavis to further his land grab

 

[somehiker]

Don't think there was anything about missing "stone maps" in the Reavis case......
Now, how's about that map that NP came up with......maybe that ?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Some hjiker, Serioudly why would they bring into court a further fraudelent document?

Hker, this is not what I seriosly believe, but why not, it's as good as any theory as any other that I have seen posted, or explanation..

 

[somehiker]

Some hjiker, Serioudly why would they bring into court a further fraudelent document?

Hker, this is not what I seriosly believe, but why not, it's as good as any theory as any other that I have seen posted, or explanation..

Fraudulent documents were Reavis' specialty. He wasn't "a gravestone carver from back east", as one story about the stones went.

When that map was first shared on this site, I speculated that it may have been a map of the route by which valuable from all those places shown by name and symbolism were transported cross country and down the Rio Grande ....in a recovery operation.You could certainly use that or a similar theory to explain the absence of any valuables if and when your "Tayopa" is finally opened for inspection. Might still be hope though....that this map was part of a "planned" recovery that was never carried out.
Although it appears that this is only part of a larger map, a copy with added notations, I believe it contains some good information. That in fact it shows a gathering of valuables to a central almacen, rather than to Rome.

 

[Oroblanco]

Fraudulent documents were Reavis' specialty. He wasn't "a gravestone carver from back east", as one story about the stones went.

When that map was first shared on this site, I speculated that it may have been a map of the route by which valuable from all those places shown by name and symbolism were transported cross country and down the Rio Grande ....in a recovery operation.You could certainly use that or a similar theory to explain the absence of any valuables if and when your "Tayopa" is finally opened for inspection. Might still be hope though....that this map was part of a "planned" recovery that was never carried out.
Although it appears that this is only part of a larger map, a copy with added notations, I believe it contains some good information. That in fact it shows a gathering of valuables to a central almacen, rather than to Rome.

I agree with Wayne here on NP's 'lil map' - if it is the genuine article and who can say for sure, it does have some indication that it is intended for something other than locating the mines/treasures, just note the numerous arrows on the direction lines, all pointing away. This might be a robber's map, to show where to lay in wait to ambush pack trains coming from the mines. All speculation on my part.

 

[somehiker]

I agree with Wayne here on NP's 'lil map' - if it is the genuine article and who can say for sure, it does have some indication that it is intended for something other than locating the mines/treasures, just note the numerous arrows on the direction lines, all pointing away. This might be a robber's map, to show where to lay in wait to ambush pack trains coming from the mines. All speculation on my part.

All speculation for all of us actually, since no written records of any such shipping/caching operations are available.
I suspect the solid arrowed lines might represent reals, routes for regular shipments from the mines, whereas the dotted lines are other trails.
I also believe the dashed line indicates that this is two maps, the left side showing two separate areas, above and below the Gila, the right side a larger area, and with a directional indication on the rosette at the bottom having some importance to understanding the division between the two maps and their relative orientations.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Some hiker, it is a map showing the route to some depositories (3 ) in the Caballo mtn, with a side run to the Organ pipes ??. these depositories were used to store the metal from various illegal mines in Chihuahua,and Sonora, presumably Jesuit ( Joe ), then when a Jesuit ship anchored in one of the bays near Matamoros, a quick run down the Rio Grande ( rio del norte) on rafts would quickly load them. This would eliminate over 1/2 of the total trip from the mines to the loading area.

It is a single map with the intervening distances shortened by condensing the intermediate distances in between,

Tayopa contributed many of those bars.

Later they were used to store' the where with all' for the planned insurrection, with the help of the Dutch, to take North America away from Spain, for whih they were expelled, not for working a few illegal mines.

 

[somehiker]

Some hiker, it is a map showing the route to some depositories (3 ) in the Caballo mtn, with a side run to the Organ pipes ??. these depositories were used to store the metal from various illegal mines in Chihuahua,and Sonora, presumably Jesuit ( Joe ), then when a Jesuit ship anchored in one of the bays near Matamoros, a quick run down the Rio Grande ( rio del norte) on rafts would quickly load them. This would eliminate over 1/2 of the total trip from the mines to the loading area.

It is a single map with the intervening distances shortened by condensing the intermediate distances in between,

Tayopa contributed many of those bars.

Later they were used to store' the where with all' for the planned insurrection, with the help of the Dutch, to take North America away from Spain, for whih they were expelled, not for working a few illegal mines.

Yes, that was my original theory, which you are stuck on it seems. But I didn't say anything about Jesuit ships...or Rome at the time.
Problem is, the Caballo Mtns and the Organs were in Franciscan hands, and they likely would have to be involved in such an operation, for there to be any chance of success.
Up until 1767 the two orders, Jesuit and Franciscan had controlled separate territories....and history tells us there was considerable friction between them.
Are you trying to say that they were working together on this conspiracy ?

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Hiker, stuck on Why not if it happens to be basically the truth As for the Franciscan element, Business dealings are one thing, Church matters another. There is no reason why they could not , and did, cooperate.

 

[somehiker]

Perhaps the truth to you....but still speculation. Or a hasty and thus erroneous conclusion IMO.
How about giving some good evidence to support your truth.....corresponding Jesuit and Franciscan maps for example.
Or writings to study, photos......anything

 

[deducer]

My first thought is that this territory was too vast and wild to be effectively policed by anyone, never mind by religious factions that had a bitter dislike of one another. Jesuits were notorious for being aggressive and not following rules, so the fact that they could have an almacen in what is today known as New Mexico, is not implausible.

There, also, is the possibility that out there, things were grey, rather than black and white as they were back in civilization, within reach of the judiciary. Possibly certain rogue elements from both factions saw common ground on a few things, such as greed.

Not sure how the Jesuits and Dutch would have been able to wrest North America away from the Spaniards even with the offer of a large purchase (as long as gold and silver was continually streaming in). That seems like quite a tall order to me, Joseph. Where did this idea/theory come from?

 

[somehiker]

I suspect the natives, and their communication networks, would have been all the Jesuits and Franciscans needed, to be aware of what was going on with each other.
I still maintain the J's could have had some kind of an agreement with the Apache for awhile, providing safe conduct and other benefits in exchange for food and sundry items.
Any such agreement might have limited the members of any party though.....no enemy personnel allowed, eg. Pima or Maricopa. Perhaps this is why legends of pack trains manned by Black Robes exist.
No, not implausible...just unlikely IMO, given the role played by the Franciscans vis a vis the expulsion of the Jesuits.
This map, like the stone maps, suggests a major caching effort, and because of the rather unique twin-peaked heart and a few other things included on that map, I suspect they are kissing cousins.

 

[Oroblanco]

Perhaps the truth to you....but still speculation. Or a hasty and thus erroneous conclusion IMO.
How about giving some good evidence to support your truth.....corresponding Jesuit and Franciscan maps for example.
Or writings to study, photos......anything

Not to answer for Don Jose, but I had found an English publication dating to the 1760's in which this Jesuit plot to betray Spanish America was discussed, including the island off Chile which was to go to the English as a part of the deal. The Dutch at the time were still a world power, and the Jesuits were keeping a large amount of money in Dutch banks. The obvious goal would have been for the Dutch to get exclusive trading rights, while the Jesuits would be allowed to set up their own theocratic state as they had done in Paraguay just a few years earlier. The Spanish military presence was not terribly strong, for instance at the presidio of Tubac the garrison was a single company strong, and expected to police southern Arizona and northern Sonora as well as defend against Apaches, Seris etc at the same time. It would not have taken a very large military force to overcome the Spanish forces in most of America, nor require the support of all the other Orders. A few Judas-es in key areas would be all they required. The English article is posted somewhere in that other thread Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?, if you like when I have more time I can hunt it up for you, the author seemed a bit surprised and pleased that the faithful padres would be willing to betray Spain.

 

[deducer]

Not to answer for Don Jose, but I had found an English publication dating to the 1760's in which this Jesuit plot to betray Spanish America was discussed, including the island off Chile which was to go to the English as a part of the deal. The Dutch at the time were still a world power, and the Jesuits were keeping a large amount of money in Dutch banks. The obvious goal would have been for the Dutch to get exclusive trading rights, while the Jesuits would be allowed to set up their own theocratic state as they had done in Paraguay just a few years earlier. The Spanish military presence was not terribly strong, for instance at the presidio of Tubac the garrison was a single company strong, and expected to police southern Arizona and northern Sonora as well as defend against Apaches, Seris etc at the same time. It would not have taken a very large military force to overcome the Spanish forces in most of America, nor require the support of all the other Orders. A few Judas-es in key areas would be all they required. The English article is posted somewhere in that other thread Jesuit Treasures Are They Real?, if you like when I have more time I can hunt it up for you, the author seemed a bit surprised and pleased that the faithful padres would be willing to betray Spain.

Please do, Roy. Would like to learn more about this.

 

[sdcfia]

I agree with Wayne here on NP's 'lil map' - if it is the genuine article and who can say for sure, it does have some indication that it is intended for something other than locating the mines/treasures, just note the numerous arrows on the direction lines, all pointing away. This might be a robber's map, to show where to lay in wait to ambush pack trains coming from the mines. All speculation on my part.

That particular map came from the Noss family, possibly an original possession of Milton Noss himself. Noss of course was a serial liar, notorious con man, violent offender and textbook sociopath. Just sayin'.

Until someone can manage to scientifically test any of these "almacen" treasure maps in a forensic lab in an attempt to establish their provenance, we have to ask ourselves some mighty penetrating questions about them - questions that many of us probably would prefer to ignore. For starters, if any of these documents are genuine, just how in the hell did such ostensibly monumentally valuable charts manage to slip away from their creators, find their ways into the hands of other parties, then later find their way to the general public? Same questions apply even if these things are modern day copies of older originals - how is it that guys like you, me and many others have them in our sweaty hands? Were we just born lucky?

Human nature never changes. Those who preceded us were not stupid, naive or careless. If the caches exist, riches of this magnitude were/are protected with numerous layers of security, IMO. One of the most effective methods of securing a valuable cache is to take advantage of human nature and allow disinformation to "leak" its location. I happen to believe there is likely some truth behind the cache legends - what, I don't know, but I suspect that if they're real, they remain safely hidden. Of course, these "treasure maps" could be complete hoaxes created by clever people with a good knowledge of history and cartography too. On the other hand, they also could simply be "half real" - enough good information to convince the curious, but not enough to direct them to the prize. Go west, young man. Ooops, perhaps I should have said east.

To me, the real curiosities are: who hid the goods, and if it's still hidden, why? Lost? Waiting?

 

[deducer]

Was looking forward to your input on this Sdcfia, since you are the expert on the Caballos/Cooke range.