Gas Prices Out of Control

[Tesorodeoro]

There is no 100% clean way to make energy, and all methods have varying environmental impacts. But solar and wind are significantly cleaner than oil and coal, and otherwise have lower environmental impacts, even accounting for their life cycles. The nice thing about solar/wind/battery is that a lot of it is recyclable: the copper, silicon, lithium, etc all have high recyclability. When you burn oil and coal, it's gone forever, leaving behind a lot of nasties that have to be dealt with. Besides that, fossil fuels are dead-ends; they have an eventual expiration date, and the later we wait to deal with that the more expensive it will get.


This is the worst-case scenario in a country like China, where coal is the dominant fuel for making the electricity that powers the car. In the US, the break-even point is around 14,000 miles.


Most states require power companies to buy back excess power at the full retail rate. I think this is misguided, they should only pay the wholesale rate. The difference between wholesale and retail is the money used to pay for the infrastructure.

I would argue that we have no idea if solar farms are “cleaner”. Does that take into account the non-existent recycling that is occurring now? When 3000 acres of land destroyed by occupation of the panels, then the pollution when they are destroyed by hail or fire, then the disposal AND replacement are concerned? I am highly doubtful everything is being taken into account. But please present your case.

You Do know these supposed over all calculations take into account carbon credits don’t you? Large companies buying forest land to “lock carbon up” by not harvesting timber or doing limited harvesting. When it burns all that sequestered carbon is released which is not accounted for of course. It’s so complicated, it’s impossible to actually calculate the overall impact. All that said, I’m a big proponent of personal solar panels.

I know of 100,000 acres of sequestered carbon that was burned in less that 5 years just locally. Not just forest land, but privately owned forest land that is encumbered by carbon credit investment from all over the world.

 

[Tnmountains]

Paid $3.18 a gallon today.

 

[Carl-NC]

I would argue that we have no idea if solar farms are “cleaner”. Does that take into account the non-existent recycling that is occurring now? When 3000 acres of land destroyed by occupation of the panels, then the pollution when they are destroyed by hail or fire, then the disposal AND replacement are concerned? I am highly doubtful everything is being taken into account. But please present your case.

Certainly recycling solar cells and turbine blades needs to be solved, and I'm sure it will be, but even if you dump 100% of that stuff in a landfill wind and solar still beat fossil fuels. Hands down. And these things don't "destroy" land any more than farms or homes. Take a look at some West Virginia coal strip mines if you want to see destruction. No method of energy production is perfect, but fossil fuels are now the losing bet.

You Do know these supposed over all calculations take into account carbon credits don’t you?

No, they don't. Solar/wind beats fossil fuels purely on raw environmental impact, and even cost per kWhr. And the funny thing is, solar/wind is getting cheaper every year, fossil fuels are volatile and will increase as extraction gets more difficult. This entire thread is all about that volatility.

 

[newnan man]

Go to the 3rd world countries were most of the raw minerals used in solar production are being mined. Solar is not the panacea its proponents are selling. Horrible working conditions, total destruction of the environment. These countries are poor, and China is exploiting them with no regard for human and environmental issues. Same goes for the materials used in the wonderful car batteries and cell phone batteries being used today. Child labor, horrible work place conditions, environmental destruction. Like I said, I'm all for clean energy, solar and wind are not it. It looks good until peel back the curtain.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Couple stations in my area have now dropped below $3.00 gal. ($2.97)

Within 5 miles of my home, low is $2.97 high $3.71

 

[pepperj]

Solar and wind is just another green washing scheme that has hooked the general population in believing it will save the planet. True
At what cost?
here is a perfect example of solar contracts in Ontario. People got a 20 contract.

• 2009 – 2011: 80.2¢ per kWh (The highest historical rate).
• 2012 – 2013: 54.9¢ per kWh down to 39.6¢ per kWh.
• 2014 – 2015: Roughly 38.4¢ to 32.9¢ per kWh.
• 2016 – 2017: 31.3¢ to 28.8¢ per kWh.

Here are the hydro rates we're paying today in Ontario.

Ontario electricity rates for summer 2026 depend on your pricing plan, with Time-of-Use (TOU) off-peak at 9.8 ¢/kWh, mid-peak at 15.7 ¢/kWh, and on-peak at 20.3 ¢/kWh. Alternative pricing options include Tiered pricing (12.0 ¢ to 14.2 ¢/kWh) or Ultra-Low Overnight.

Now it doesn't take a degree in mathematics to see that things just don't add up. So the delivery charges are applied, the rural supply charges are applied, the rebate is applied.
My personal monthly is up to $450 in the winter $150 in the shoulder season and a split if cooling is needed in the summer.

They want to electrify the world, great except if the circuit is 15 amp and you need 20 amp it doesn't work really.
So the BIG PLAN is to upgrade the power grid at a cost of $1 Trillion dollars-or just $1,340 per taxpayer per year over the next 24 years. (just for Canada)
JUST AMAZING we can have a power grid to run all those EV around in -25F weather for -100miles per charge.

Yes it all works on paper at some desk but actually how can it work when food is needed to generate the $$$ to pay for everything and some.

OH RIGHT! Grow more-wait we just used up the fertile lands that were used for 100's of years for the solar farms.
Remember some thank the farmers for that food they're eating today-but some others rather tip the hat at the solar farm industry for making their power for their convenience.

 

[jeff of pa]

 

[releventchair]

Solar and wind is just another green washing scheme that has hooked the general population in believing it will save the planet. True
At what cost?
here is a perfect example of solar contracts in Ontario. People got a 20 contract.

• 2009 – 2011: 80.2¢ per kWh (The highest historical rate).
• 2012 – 2013: 54.9¢ per kWh down to 39.6¢ per kWh.
• 2014 – 2015: Roughly 38.4¢ to 32.9¢ per kWh.
• 2016 – 2017: 31.3¢ to 28.8¢ per kWh.

Here are the hydro rates we're paying today in Ontario.

Ontario electricity rates for summer 2026 depend on your pricing plan, with Time-of-Use (TOU) off-peak at 9.8 ¢/kWh, mid-peak at 15.7 ¢/kWh, and on-peak at 20.3 ¢/kWh. Alternative pricing options include Tiered pricing (12.0 ¢ to 14.2 ¢/kWh) or Ultra-Low Overnight.

Now it doesn't take a degree in mathematics to see that things just don't add up. So the delivery charges are applied, the rural supply charges are applied, the rebate is applied.
My personal monthly is up to $450 in the winter $150 in the shoulder season and a split if cooling is needed in the summer.

They want to electrify the world, great except if the circuit is 15 amp and you need 20 amp it doesn't work really.
So the BIG PLAN is to upgrade the power grid at a cost of $1 Trillion dollars-or just $1,340 per taxpayer per year over the next 24 years. (just for Canada)
JUST AMAZING we can have a power grid to run all those EV around in -25F weather for -100miles per charge.

Yes it all works on paper at some desk but actually how can it work when food is needed to generate the $$$ to pay for everything and some.

OH RIGHT! Grow more-wait we just used up the fertile lands that were used for 100's of years for the solar farms.
Remember some thank the farmers for that food they're eating today-but some others rather tip the hat at the solar farm industry for making their power for their convenience.

Peak use periods higher cost. Scam.
I'm not going o grab a bill and list other scam charges but peak use annoys me the most.
Oh wait we'll just shut everything down and wait?

When I worked in a foundry we ran induction furnaces at nigh for lower rates. From our own substation.
So of course noise complaints from the area followed.
(No donations for running production's electric rates outside of lower peak times though.)

 

[Carl-NC]

Child labor, horrible work place conditions, environmental destruction. Like I said, I'm all for clean energy, solar and wind are not it. It looks good until peel back the curtain.

Then you should also be a strong proponent of boycotting any Chinese-made items sold at Wal-Mart. There is no perfect energy solution, but fossil fuels are amongst the worst options. Instead of trying to ramp up coal extraction, the US should be building wafer fabs for solar cells. Strategically, we should be

• Moving away from oil and wave goodbye to the Middle East
• Basing all of our critical tech on shore and wave goodbye to China

here is a perfect example of solar contracts in Ontario. People got a 20 [year] contract.

Yeah, this was an utter failure of bureaucrats, not of the technology. They locked in high prices for 20 years, then solar tech costs plummeted. Right now, hydro is about the cheapest energy source around but it's limited as where you can put it. My house is powered from Grand Coulee Dam. But there's nowhere else to build a dam for more energy, so we are now building large-scale windmill farms. It's working quite well, and my rate hasn't budged because those windmills are about as cheap as hydro.

 

[pepperj]

Then you should also be a strong proponent of boycotting any Chinese-made items sold at Wal-Mart. There is no perfect energy solution, but fossil fuels are amongst the worst options. Instead of trying to ramp up coal extraction, the US should be building wafer fabs for solar cells. Strategically, we should be

• Moving away from oil and wave goodbye to the Middle East
• Basing all of our critical tech on shore and wave goodbye to China

Yeah, this was an utter failure of bureaucrats, not of the technology. They locked in high prices for 20 years, then solar tech costs plummeted. Right now, hydro is about the cheapest energy source around but it's limited as where you can put it. My house is powered from Grand Coulee Dam. But there's nowhere else to build a dam for more energy, so we are now building large-scale windmill farms. It's working quite well, and my rate hasn't budged because those windmills are about as cheap as hydro.

In Ontario it seems nuclear is 50%
It wants to build more mini reactors

 

[pepperj]

Down to $3.94 US for a gallon.

 

[Carl-NC]

It wants to build more mini reactors

I'm in favor of nuclear energy, especially using the new graphite core designs and the mini/micro concepts. But nuclear still has that waste problem, so I would rather use hydro/wind/solar/tidal as much as possible and nuke when those aren't feasible. And natural gas but strictly as a filler for those ultra-calm nights.

 

[Tesorodeoro]

I'm in favor of nuclear energy, especially using the new graphite core designs and the mini/micro concepts. But nuclear still has that waste problem, so I would rather use hydro/wind/solar/tidal as much as possible and nuke when those aren't feasible. And natural gas but strictly as a filler for those ultra-calm nights.

Remove all tax payer subsidies and factor in complete life cycle of the wind mills, is it really an economically viable business? I don’t think anyone knows for sure. I’ve heard no. Carbon credits is a big business used to offset environmental impacts. I recall a business that wanted to buy a 150 year old steel through truss bridge so they could place solar panels on the top. It was not about green energy so much as it was a tax credit they would receive if they mounted solar panels on an existing structure. Everyone can have their personal beliefs, the truth is likely somewhere in the middle IF everything is taken into consideration.

 

[Carl-NC]

Remove all tax payer subsidies and factor in complete life cycle of the wind mills, is it really an economically viable business?

Yes, it absolutely is. Even more so when you remove the subsidies Big Oil gets, somewhere around 100 Billion a year -- mostly military costs for dealing with nasty people associated with the oil shipping. As exemplified in our recent adventures.

I think a lot of opposition to "clean energy" stems from the very name "clean energy," which is strongly linked to environmentalists which are overwhelmingly Democrats, and supporting anything that arose from those people is something to be avoided at all costs. But regardless of the reduced environmental costs of clean energy (and they are substantial), moving away from fossil fuels is overwhelmingly in the nation's best strategic interest. And will be mandatory at some point, anyway. This is a case where the Democronkies and the Tree Huggers got it mostly right.

 

[DizzyDigger]

60 mile round trip into town today...saw prices for regular at $5.10 - $5.65.

 

[newnan man]

Then you should also be a strong proponent of boycotting any Chinese-made items sold at Wal-Mart. There is no perfect energy solution, but fossil fuels are amongst the worst options. Instead of trying to ramp up coal extraction, the US should be building wafer fabs for solar cells. Strategically, we should be

• Moving away from oil and wave goodbye to the Middle East
• Basing all of our critical tech on shore and wave goodbye to China

Yeah, this was an utter failure of bureaucrats, not of the technology. They locked in high prices for 20 years, then solar tech costs plummeted. Right now, hydro is about the cheapest energy source around but it's limited as where you can put it. My house is powered from Grand Coulee Dam. But there's nowhere else to build a dam for more energy, so we are now building large-scale windmill farms. It's working quite well, and my rate hasn't budged because those windmills are about as cheap as hydro.

Yes, a strong proponet may be warranted. You may want to do the same with your windmills since most of them are made in China. There is a good bet many of your electric windmills started out being manufactured in China with vast amounts of coal & diesel used to do so. Then shipped here on a diesel ship, trucked to the site with a diesel truck, erected with a diesel crane & you get the picture. I'm not trying to be an ass (I don't need to try) just pointing out that wind and solar are not "green or clean" just different than fossil fuels.

 

[Carl-NC]

You may want to do the same with your windmills since most of them are made in China.

Windmills are made from both domestic and imported components, like lots of other things. Sure, I'd love for them to be 100% on-shored. But here's the funny bit: even if a windmill (or a solar panel) is made 100% in a Chinese factory using 100% coal power, the emissions and cost break-even points are still very fast. They still win.

 

[djackson7348]

View attachment 2257172

I hate to say it Jeff, but it looks like some price gouging going on in your area.

 

[russau]

I saw a sign today here in St. Louis , Mo. for gas at $3.51 for regular !

 

[jeff of pa]

Northern Dauphin County today (Lykens) $3.999