Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

I understand what you are saying. But it suggest that it would be almost impossible to fully identify any regalia, whether it was pre, during, or post Civil War. So are you saying if a button collectors guide list a button as "Lilley,""Pettibone," "Waterbury," or any one of a number of other "back marked" buttons, that the books are in a sense wrong? Isn't it a very standard practice to identify a button by the manufacturer's back mark?

Thanks.

SBB

 

[allan]

What he is saying you could get a M.C.Lilley & Co button thru a company like sears , they offer the products of various companies , they do not make them at sears. and yes buttons and relics can be dated by the marks of a manufacturer , over the years co's changed the info and so some items can be traced to a certain time frame

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

In actual fact, the VAST majority of company names you see in button backmarks did not manufacture any buttons.

~ * ~

Above is the part I'm still a little confused about. Then why does the Pettibone button I posted say "MF'G Co."

SBB

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> Then why does the Pettibone button I posted say "MF'G Co."

Apparently, you missed this part of my post about Pettibone. I said "Pettibone did manufacture non-metal regalia, such as banners, reunion ribbons, military hats, etc."

SodaBottleBob wrote:
> Isn't it a standard practice to identify a button by the manufacturer's back mark?

No. For example, all of the major button-books identify/classify each particular, unique die-variety of State Seal button with the state's initials and a number ...and then list all of the backmarks found on that unique die-variety. See the Albert book and Tice book. Also, note the small details in the description of the emblem.
VA 13A Virginia, the State Seal, convex (form) with border, 2-piece. Virtus' spear rests on Tyranny's right elbow, a dot on each side in the legend.
VA 13A1: "Scovill Mf'g. Co/Waterbury Ct." rmdc 23mm
VA 13A2: "Canfield Bro. & Co.Baltimore" rmdc 23mm
VA 13A3: "Mitchell & Tyler 23mm
VA 13A4: "Schuyler H&G/New York" rmdc 23mm
VA 13A5: Blank 23mm

For anybody who doesn't already know:
Let me explain what I mean by the term "die-variety." The button's face is made by striking a disc of thin sheet-brass with a stamping-die made of hardened steel ...much like the way coins are manufactured. The die was created by a highly skilled craftsman, the Engraver, who cut an impression of the button's emblem into the die. Minor variations in the emblem produced by the Engraver help us to track its manufacturer. For example, the tiny details of a Virginia State Seal button-making die produced by the Engraver at Scovill would not be 100%-identical to the Virginia Seal button-making die produced by the Engraver at another button-manufacturing company. (For example, on Scovill's die, the butt-end of Virtus's spear rests on the fallen Tyrant's elbow, and would most likely not be at exactly the same spot on the button-making die produced by another manufacturer's engraver.)

Even the tiniest details of every VA 13A button are 100%-identical, even though various companies names show up on the back of VA-13A buttons. Scovill made the VA 13A die, and all of the VA 13A buttons. The other names in VA 13A backmarks are just "retailers" of those Scovill-made buttons.

We know from historical business-records that Scovill was a button manufacturer ...and similarly we know that all the other backmarks on VA13 buttons (Canfield & Bro., Mitchell & Tyler, and Schuyler H&G were not button manufacturers, just dealers (a.k.a. "retailers" of buttons bought at a wholesale price from a button-manufacturer). For example, we know that Brooks Brothers, a famous clothing-company, does not manufacture any of the buttons on the suits it sells ...it buys the buttons at wholesale prices from a button-manufacturer.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

An additional example:
The US Army "Eagle I" button with Pettibone backmark, whose photo you posted in Reply 321, was manufactured by Scovill, and is listed in the Albert button-book as button GI 90A, with three known backmarks ...all having the exact-same (100%-identical) emblem on the button's front, proving they were all made at Scovill's factory, using Scovill's uniquely-detailed button stamping die.
GI 90A -- The letter I on a raised, stippled shield.
GI 90A1: "Extra Rich Gilt/SMFGCO" (initials for Scovill Mfg Co)
GI 90A2 "Best Quality London - with a wolf's head in the backmark.
GI 90A3 "Pettibone Mf'g. Co./Cincinatti"

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Seriously, I get it now. Thank you for the detailed explanation. I didn't know any of that stuff. But my point is, if Bill_S's pin did happen to have a manufacturer's mark on it, especially one that we have not considered yet, that it could very well lead us to another pin just like it. For example, if Bill_S's pin was marked "Bob's Mfg.," I bet it would eventually lead to another pin marked "Bob's Mfg." But if Bill_S's pin does not have a makers mark on it of any kind, then this course of research will end up being a waste of time anyway. A lot of the items I have found aren't properly identified as it is. I found the W. VA./30 pin by searching "Fraternal Crossed Swords."

Thanks again to everyone. I am learning something new every day.

SBB

 

[allan]

LILLEY AMES CO.
Columbus Ohio 1951-1953

THE LILLEY-AMES CO.
Columbus Ohio 1931-1951

THE LILLEY CO.
Columbus Ohio 1925-1931

THE M. C. LILLEY & CO
Columbus Ohio 1882-1925
M. C. LILLEY & CO
Columbus Ohio 1865-1882

MITCHELL C. LILLEY
Columbus Ohio up to 1865

If Bills was made by them it would have to be after 1880 , when the KOP was established



An order of Knights of Pythias of the same general nature as that above described, consisting of members of the colored race, was established in Mississippi on March 26, 1880. It became a corporation of the District of Columbia on or about October 10, 1889, by virtue of the general incorporation act of Congress of May 5, 1870, already referred to, under the name and style of "The Supreme Lodge Knights of Pythias, North and South America, Europe, Asia and Africa." The order was introduced into Georgia in June, 1886, and a Grand Lodge was instituted in that State by the Supreme Lodge on December 15, 1890. The corporation of October 10, 1889,
[ 225 U.S. 250 ]

generated growth for the Knights of Pythias. Men wanted to
own military uniforms and to wear them publicly.
The amazing amount of ornate, elaborate regalia used in
these demonstrations represented a significant investment in
clothing products. But lodges did not intend to make this
investment from the organization's funds. A Sir Knight of
the Uniform Rank was obliged to buy his own regalia.

if anyone can find a copy of this it is about the African American participation in the Virginia Volunteer's 1872 - 1899 The Virginia Magazine of History and Biography
Vol. 110, No. 3 (2002), pp. 293-338 I think it has U.R. insignia pictured


I found the following interesting due to the reference to the "Sir Knight's" being responsible for new lodges and the formation of the U.R.
In many instances new lodges were organized and
instituted through the direct and special efforts
of the Sir Knights, and then immediately after the
institution of the lodge, a Division of the
Uniform Rank was instituted, and in not a few
instances where persons were first attracted to
the Order by the Uniform Rank, men went into the
work of organizing a lodge for the express purpose
of securing a Division of the Uniform Rank,
realizing that the lodge of Knights of Pythias was
the only door through which they must pass to
attain the Military Rank and wear the Uniform of
this fraternity.

Still looking for Lilley catalogs

 

[ivan salis]

while the knights of pythias was formed up in 1870 * the rank of "uniformed rank" was first though up in 1884 and adopted in 1888 --so with the U ( lily) R --uniform rank marking upon the swords clam shell -- it can not predated the invention of the "uniformed rank" 1884 /1888

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

A copy of that Virginia magazine is available on Amazon.com for about $30.00. Below is a picture from it. But this is all I have found so far.

Thanks for the lead.

SBB

They have emblems on their hats - but I can't make them out

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Review from magazine article ... Uses the term "Fraternal," but not Knights of Pythias.

Virginia Magazine of History and Biography
Volume 110 / Number 3
ABSTRACT:

"They Are as Proud of Their Uniform as Any Who Serve Virginia": African American Participation in the Virginia Volunteers, 1872–99
- By Roger D. Cunningham, pp. 293–338

Between 1872 and 1899, Virginia armed and equipped at least twenty black companies in its organized militia—the Virginia Volunteers. The units were raised in Danville, Fredericksburg, Hampton, Lynchburg, Manchester, Norfolk, Petersburg, Portsmouth, Richmond, and Staunton for periods of time that ranged from less than a year to more then a quarter century. The number of black militiamen peaked at about 1,000 men in the early 1880s.

African American militia units primarily served a social and recreational function within their respective communities, like fraternal organizations, but they also participated in local, state, and national ceremonies, including four presidential inaugurations, and responded to domestic disorder on at least five occasions. Governor Fitzhugh Lee's 1887 deployment of Richmond's State Guard to quell a black longshoremen's strike in Newport News was the only such activation of a black unit by a southern governor. Virginia’s treatment of the units was relatively equitable, but the black militiamen were often armed with the oldest and most defective weapons and were excluded from the brigade that eventually included all white units.

During the Spanish-American War, African American units combined to form the Sixth Virginia Volunteer Infantry and remained in federal service for almost eight months. Angered by the racist attitude of its white commander and the discrimination that it encountered at Camp Haskell, near Macon, Georgia, the regiment was plagued with disciplinary problems. Its embarrassing performance combined with a rising tide of racism to end black participation in the Virginia Volunteers by the turn of the century.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Here's an interesting item, and the only one like it I have seen. Notice the similar style of the sword handles as those of Bill_S's and the W. VA./30 pins. The one shown here needs more research to try and determine which lodge or regiment it might have belonged to.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

This picture was described as a ...

"African American member of the Knights of Pythias"

 

[allan]

I am really starting to wonder if these pins were made from the pin on the chart bob posted bottom row middle, labeled as indiana take these swords and install pin and add the letters/numbers. the back picture is of another pin but similar construction . anyone see any measurements for these ? Bill can u get some ? seems odd we cant find any evidence other than the 2 we know of, and both "seem" to lead back to the colored U.R. KOP.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Bradyboy wrote:
> I am really starting to wonder if these pins were made from the pin on the chart bob posted bottom row middle

Sorry ...but definitely not the same swords. No clamshell-guard with Calla Lily emblem, no designs on the blades, grip is shaped like a pinecone.

Regarding the size of Bill_S's pin:
He has never given us any measurement of it. But based on extra-precisely comparing it with the US penny in the very first photo Bill_S posted of the pin, I believe it is 2-&-1/8th inches wide, and 1 inch tall.

Also, that size indicates it is a collar insignia pin, not intended for use on a hat. Take a look at the two sizes of the actual American Military (State National Guard cavalry) pin whose form Bill_S's pin is based on, and the location of the two sizes being worn by the New York national Guard soldier in the photo.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I second the collar pin suggestion. Especially if the majority of hats were the kepi styles that were embroidered. (By the way, my Knights of Pythias kepi gallery of different numbers/states is at about 25 now).

Based on the numbers of different KOP pins I've seen, the most common seems to be like the triangle shaped one re-posted recently. So compared to it, on a scale of rarity, I would say Bill_S's pin is about ...

1,000 to 2 / 500 to 1

Of course, this is just a guesstimate. But I believe there is a major clue in the fact there are so few of the pins around. Something tells me it was not used by every lodge or regiment, and could very well be connected to the African American regiments, or possibly even a women's auxiliary. But I have to wonder if women would use crossed swords as their insignia? The "Lily" image would seem more appropriate.

SBB

Here's my current favorite picture with Uniform ~ Sword ~ Kepi ~ Helmet

{ New Hampshire 13 }

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I figured since I was in a picture posting mood, I'd share this one of a totally cool poster. In the lower right corner is an illustration of one of the regiments. But of particular interest to me is the crossed swords laying atop a Bible at the top of the poster just under the letter "C." There seems to be a connection of some kind with a sword(s) laid on a Bible. I have seen other pictures of items and text references related to this practice.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I can't prove at the moment this is a ...

"Knights of Pythias Banner"

... but there is a sufficient evidence to suggest that it might be. The shield looks right. The swords look right. Plus I have looked at the banners from numerous other organizations and none of those look quite like this. Too bad it isn't a pin ~ but it may be a clue. I found out that the small embroidered emblem is from a KOP cerimonial helmet like the one I posted a picture of earlier shown with the uniform.

So if this is a Knights of Pythias banner, does it mean that the crossed swords emblem was not as uncommon among the lodges as we previously thought? Or is the banner just another one-of-a-kind item? ... I don't know either.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bill_S

The following pictures will likely be my last contribution to your most intriguing and challenging thread. I may return with a comment ocassionally depending on what develops. Otherwise this will pretty much conclude my participation. I've searched and searched until I am blue in the face, and have to admit, I hit a dead end. If and when I post any more pictures, hopefully it will be of a pin just like yours. But the odds of that seem pretty slim at the present. I guess it's up to TheCannonballGuy or someone else to make some inquiries and see what the responses might be.

~ * ~

Big Cy ~ The first picture is especially for you because I know you have done some successful patent searches. The copied image does not include a number or date, and my personal searches did not produce anything. But I do know there is a patent on at least one of the Knights of Pythias swords, and thought you might be able to find it for us. Thanks.

~ * ~

And to everyone else I wish to express my appreciation for allowing me to indulge myself in this topic. I realize it had it's ups and downs at times, but for the most part it has been an extremely fun ride.

I believe Bill_S's pin is extremely rare, and at this point I can just barely venture a guess as to it's true purpose and origin, other than to say it is likely a million in one item. Definitely Knights of Pythias related. But other than that, it is anybody's guess.

~ * ~

Thanks again to everyone. I will likely pop up on another "What Is It?" where I can participate in the fun all over again.



SODABOTTLEBOB

~ * ~

The following pictures are described in the text located below each one. Many of the items are considered rare. Take a close look at the second picture and see what you think of the pin(s) attached to the oldtimer's sash. It is one of the most intriguing and puzzling pictures of the hundreds I have seen.

 

[allan]

That poster is KOP , the FCB is the giveaway ,The pin I think is collar pin ,colored/ negro uniform rank dated from 1888 UR start date till 1905 when the crossed rifles design was approved for the U.R.. I think it is a colored pin due to the fact both pins have a link to UR groups that were black only. The links are too thin to use as definitive proof though.Quite a few southern KOP groups used the courts to try to block them from even existing Georgia was one that tried hard while northern KOP groups seemed to side with the Black KOP.I wonder if during this turmoil the Black groups were forced to find another company than the one's the white KOP used, atleast for a lil while. I didnt give up yet but I find myself looking less and less lol. Hope we get a reply from someone with the true info

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Hey, man ... you're going to get me in trouble. When you mentioned the word "poster" it reminded me of this picture I forgot to share. But at least it shows some crossed swords this time, which are located near the top just to the left of the "C." Plus, around the border it shows a variety of other cool symbols, with some more of the bible swords at the bottom. You may have to do a little zooming for clarity.

Sorry folks. But it's all allan's fault. This is the last one, I promise!

SBB

Just trying to find an exact match to Bill_S's pin

and possibly establish ...

Rare vs. Common