Cubfan64
Silver Member
- Feb 13, 2006
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Just a quick note/reminder. Clay's last name is spelled Worst, not Wurst
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Oro, I have a hard time putting much reliance on any of the Holmes story. That just could be me and it "could" have validity. Its just a long stretch for me.
I personally don't think Waltz said anything on his death bed. Much less the long winded confession story. That's far too Hollywood for me.
For Julia to have been awakened in the wee hours of the morning and having hurried from the house to fetch the doctor, Jacob had taken an abrupt turn for the worse. Most likely exhibiting death rattles. He would have been in no shape to tell anyone anything. If he was awake talking in the fashion Holmes would have us believe, Julia would have waited for morning light to fetch a doctor.
Now, I know that upsets the apple cart for things that come down the line based from that start of the story but that's my take on it.
Just a quick note/reminder. Clay's last name is spelled Worst, not Wurst
Old - I am not asking you to put reliance on the Holmes manuscript. There has been some controversy over who or whom really authored it. However that detail about being robbed, is notable for not being mentioned in it. That said, Dick and Brownie Holmes and Clay Worst all spent many years searching for the mine, which if we judge by actions is a form of support for truth in the manuscript.
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yer lucky Loke. The last time we met I had to buy a cuppa coffee from Oxo.
I fear I’m at a disadvantage in discussing the Pioneer Interviews. I’m unsure of which interviews you speak. The ones in Ms. Corbin’s book are a dry read and offer little to the puzzle. Are there others where you can direct me?
Perhaps a more accurate way of putting it would be to say, "... a form of support for belief in the manuscript."
PS another point on the Deering/Mitchell stories, but Deering hinted that his mine was in a place that seemed to give him the creeps, he would not spend the night there. The Pima/Soldiers story from Mitchell placed it almost on the crest of the mountains, a place that seems most unlikely to be creepy, more likely to have spectacular views.
I hope that I.O.U. is still good
Old wrote
Unfortunately I am not even sure where they are kept now. When we first read them I did not attach much credence to them for at the time I was still putting faith in the popular versions. There is not much to the interviews concerning Waltz, the story can be summed up in a couple of lines - that he was known in Florence in the 1870s, that he hired a carpenter to build a portable drywasher for tracing gold to a vein, that he had a rich gold mine somewhere in a side canyon off Pinto creek. The persons telling these few tidbits, seemed a little surprised at the widespread notoriety (and possibly the expanded stories) then attached to a man they knew as simply a successful prospector, when it was "no big secret" about his having a mine in the Superstitions. I am not keeping some part of that version secret, there simply is little detail on the location. One story that I can also recall reading (and had no mention of Pinto creek) did tell of Waltz having a partner also named Jacob but not his last name. At the time my wife and I were researching this aspect (the interviews) I had no idea that I would ever have need to show what I was reading on the internet, and simply wrote down any relevant info for our own use - I should have made photocopies. I think Cubfan did track down the location where they are kept today? Perhaps one of our members here, who lives in Phoenix or near by, can spend a day tracking them down and making copies for everyone to see.
Sdcfia wrote
Perhaps - however against putting too much reliance in the manuscript, judging actions versus words, Dick Holmes did not follow those directions in his very first trip into the mountains after Waltz died, and later did a systematic search through much (if not the entire) range. These actions are in keeping with someone that did not get a set of directions from Waltz but was following the same route he had once trailed him, and possibly had known of the older Peralta/Ludy story which he presumed had to be the same mine. I did phrase that sentence IF we judge by actions is a FORM of support for truth in the manuscript, rather than absolute proof it is genuine.
Some researchers like to sort the evidence/statements etc from our sources as all true, or all false. Unfortunately it looks like we have a mix of true and false in many of our sources. This continues to our own day, with true facts being mixed with false, making it that much more difficult to sort them out. I am not calling anyone a liar, for we do not know who originally introduced the false information nor when. Waltz himself may have been responsible, for he may have known of the Peralta/Ludy story and simply swapped out the Ludy men for himself and Weisner. We can't even separate Julia/Reiney from Dick Holmes version very well for Dick went to Julia and met with her, after she had given up in her own search but long before we read anything from them. They may have altered their versions (which we read many years later) to fit each other's.
Considering the points about the Pit mine which will line up with the Peralta/Ludy story AND with the Joe Deering story, I think it may be fair to conclude that it is the same mine. Sorting out the different stories from the LDM is difficult but not impossible, an example - Joe Deering found his mine open to the sky, pieces of ore laying around the entrance. The Mitchell story of Pima Indians finding a mine open to the sky, had two skeletal human remains right near it. Deering certainly would have noticed that. The Mitchell story is placed in the Mazatzals, north of the Salt, Deering was south of the river. This is one of the easier comparisons to separate but you see what I mean. Oh and Deering has the now famous "trick in the trail" tidbit - which is today attached to the LDM, perhaps wrongly. Some have mixed the Wagoner ledge story with the LDM too, based on the Whitlow ranch coincidence, ignoring the descriptions of the ores being quite different, and that Wagoner found his gold as a virgin deposit, no sign that anyone had ever struck a pick to it much less a mine shaft dug into it.
More SOCK coffee anyone?
roy..someone has proved they found the mine...they have the gold to prove it...thats more than i can say for anyone else that claims to have found the mineDammitol forgot to add the point I meant to in that last post - but Sims Ely's book actually POST dates several other sources. So while Ely did interview Julia (or claimed to have, and actions vs words did go searching for the mine with Jim Bark and later John Chuning) we don't really know exactly when he obtained his information. Bicknell appears to be the first to have done so, unfortunately Bicknell was also not above embellishing and mixing tales. Mitchell's first published work on the LDM appeared in 1933, twenty years before Ely's, but we do not know exactly when he talked to Poston, Julia or Reiney. It is a point of interest that Mitchell stated the value of the gold Waltz dug up to help Julia pay her debt was worth $1500, which in other sources is over $4000, and now has been proven to be closer to that $1500 figure.
AzDave - I too am surprised that people will choose to follow the Holmes manuscript directions, yet who knows, until someone actually proves they have found the LDM to the public, who can say what directions and clues are really accurate? Quien sabe
roy..someone has proved they found the mine...they have the gold to prove it...thats more than i can say for anyone else that claims to have found the mine
Not saying you are wrong there amigo, but we have heard that song before. If they really found it, why not make it public, have an ore comparison done, remove any doubt?
I can prove that we found an old mine too, complete with gold to show for it. That does not make it the LDM.
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maybe he doesnt care if everyone thinks he found the ldm...the supers are a wilderness area...some people (the ones with any brains anyway) just get what they can and go...and live happily ever after...i've found many mines also..and they have gold too...but there is a big difference between the gold you and i found in mines..and the gold they found in this mine....