JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[gollum]

sailaway,

Many thanks for the kind (undeserved) words. I am, basically, a fan of history and no expert.

I used to firmly believe in the legends of Jesuit treasure. It took a number of years for me to convince myself of it's being, mostly, made up "history". The local natives and Mexican population have made quite a living off of prodding the Gringo treasure hunters with golden stories. That continues to this day.

There was no one thing that convinced me it was, mostly, a wild goose chase. Rather, it was the overall weight of the written history that I have read over the last few decades......along with private conversations with many authors on the history of early Mexico.

I have written of those conversations, over the years, and they can be found posted here and on the LDM Forum. The effort it would take for me to find and condense that information is well beyond my abilities at this point in my life. Anyone interested could do what I would need to do, which is do a search of my posts on both sites. That would be a prodigious undertaking.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

HAHAHA THAT ........................... and the fact that you never found anything. Sort of like Karl von Mueller's Statement. After he had spent a lot of time and money searching for the Lost Dutchman. Basically stating that if he couldn't find it, it must not exist.

Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

HAHAHA THAT ........................... and the fact that you never found anything. Sort of like Karl von Mueller's Statement. After he had spent a lot of time and money searching for the Lost Dutchman. Basically stating that if he couldn't find it, it must not exist.

Mike

Mike,

I have always been a frustrated archaeologist. As a fan of the science, I would never say Jesuit treasure does not exist. For my limited abilities and funds, I believe I have done as much as it's possible........for me. While I do look forward to someone proving the legends, I have no intentions of jumping on every story, even with pictures, that comes down the pike. Who really knows what the next turn of the spade may uncover.

I have shared the results of my research with many people over the years........including you. That was always done with the hope that it would help them in whatever they were searching for. I have too much respect for you, and the others I have tried to help, to ever say there is nothing out there.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

Funny that you should bring up Karl as it was Doug Mueller that was with me on that rainy night in Georgia watching and calling me a crazy Indian, as I crawled around on the red Georgia clay ground, with my face as close as i could get so I could spot the yellow sparkle coming out of the quartz veins.

 

[gollum]

Mike,

I have always been a frustrated archaeologist. As a fan of the science, I would never say Jesuit treasure does not exist. For my limited abilities and funds, I believe I have done as much as it's possible........for me. While I do look forward to someone proving the legends, I have no intentions of jumping on every story, even with pictures, that comes down the pike. Who really knows what the next turn of the spade may uncover.

I have shared the results of my research with many people over the years........including you. That was always done with the hope that it would help them in whatever they were searching for. I have too much respect for you, and the others I have tried to help, to ever say there is nothing out there.

Good luck,

Joe

Come on Joe. You know I'm only bustin' yer chops.

You have both shared information and introduced me to people I might never have met.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus stuck

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactus stuck



View attachment 1082586 View attachment 1082589

?? I can't find the rest of this book!

 

[gollum]

?? I can't find the rest of this book!

I have a good idea for the Author's Flyleaf, buuuuuut I'd probably get a timeout! HAHAHA


Mike

 

[Scorch]

Well, then, here's a question: Primary sources aside, and not all reading material being equal, and after decades of doing this, What is the stuff to be reading? and what would you stay away from, looking back on it?

Thanks!! ,

Scorch

 

[UncleMatt]

When will it be available on amazon?

Oh, and you might want to spell-check your blurb to the right of the main cover...

 

[deducer]

I have written of those conversations, over the years, and they can be found posted here and on the LDM Forum. The effort it would take for me to find and condense that information is well beyond my abilities at this point in my life. Anyone interested could do what I would need to do, which is do a search of my posts on both sites. That would be a prodigious undertaking.

That person, unfortunately, happens to be me.

In the early stage of fact-gathering, I went through every thread on the LDM, DUSA, and this forum, not once, not twice but a good handful of time.

It was very frustrating to go through the threads at LDM, because every time a good thread got started, it got blown up by the resident bully/moderator.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus, I ahve a question which has been bothering me for some time. Why is tt that no mention is found in the Vatican files of the extensive mining by the Jesuits in South America ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactus, I ahve a question which has been bothering me for some time. Why is tt that no mention is found in the Vatican files of the extensive mining by the Jesuits in South America ?

Don Jose,

I only have a passing interest in the history of South America.

Having never visited the "Vatican files", I would not be able to offer you and opinion. Besides that, I have been much too busy bullying poor helpless posters to find the time for research.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Jose,

I have to say that likely there are a couple of reasons:

1. The Vatican Archives (the Archivio Vaticano or the Archivio Segreto Vaticano) probably would not have anything about the subject. However, head a couple of doors down to Spiritu 4 Borgo (Rome), you will find the Jesuit Curia. I am certain that with the proper accesses, a person could access Mission Letters and Records of the time in question. I can almost guarantee that somewhere there can be found all the records you would want.

2. Most people that would have access to either the Vatican or Jesuit Archives are not there looking for such records. Some people like Chuck Kenworthy spent a lot of years cultivating relationships with and donating money to different archival sources to get copies of maps and different things he obtained over the years. My guess (and it is an educated guess) is that the people that have spent the time and money to get access to those records are not prone to sharing that information on an internet forum.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactus, I ahve a question which has been bothering me for some time. Why is tt that no mention is found in the Vatican files of the extensive mining by the Jesuits in South America ?

Isn't the answer obvious? The Jesuit temporal activities were not being reported to the Vatican, in fact we find a number of reports of Jesuits at missions and colleges refusing to show their books to visiting Visitadors. Palafox was hardly the only incident, padre Marras was even brought up on charges over selling food to miners and refused to show the books even to the Spanish authorities, pointing to some exemption granted as a benefit to the Jesuits a century earlier. I too had expected that some records would have turned up at the Vatican, but was assuming they were reporting to the Vatican which is not the case.

Scorch wrote

Well, then, here's a question: Primary sources aside, and not all reading material being equal, and after decades of doing this, What is the stuff to be reading? and what would you stay away from, looking back on it?

I had thought others would have suggested books but will list a few:

Sonora: Its Geographical Personality by Robert C. West

The Jesuit Missions of Northern Mexico by Charles W. Polzer (SJ)

Rudo Ensayo by Juan Nentvig (SJ)

Sonora: A Description of the Province by Ignaz Pfefferkorn

Sonora: Its Extent, Population, Natural Productions, Indian Tribes, Mines & c.. by José Francisco Velasco

Arizona and Sonora by Sylvester Mowry

History of the North Mexican States by H.H. Bancroft


Rim of Christendom: A Biography of Eusebio Francisco Kino by H.E. Bolton

That should get you started - a problem is in that these historians had little or no interest in the mining activities of the padres (or anyone else) and some are actively trying to whitewash the history so it is a BS minefield. I nearly listed Polzer's book on the "avoid" list for he denies there was any mining or amassing of treasure by the Jesuits, but except for his treatment of the Jesuits his history is pretty good.

Oroblanco


[h=1]
[/h]

 

[Crow]

I had a good conversation with Amy over the matter,. She being qualified professor and archivist she one of only about 1000 scholars every year to apply to gain access to the archives and also because of another project via the Vatican she was slowed unprecedented access. Not all Jesuit records are in the Vatican library. Its a bit of myth that Authors have used to say its just hidden away in the Vatican secret archives. Knowing no one can dispute them because access is restricted because of precious rare documents. First you have to understand you have the old Jesuit order and the new Jesuit order. The new order was more regulated than the old order. Thus Jesuits in far flung places had more independent autonomy in the old order.

It was Spain with the main Jesuit college that questioned Spanish Crowns right to exclusivity in its south American dominions. These teachings was seen as dangerous to the Crown who began to see the Jesuits indeed as a threat. As you could see some Jesuits just about operated their own mini independent clerical states free of the crowns influences. The Jesuits were teaching dangerous ideas in their collages that a country, a nation could exist without a king as supreme head of state. These ideals took root among many of people of the Americas who were being educated by the Jesuits.

Even after the Jesuits had been expelled...The seeds of independence was sown.

For me it think too many are too fixated by the Jesuits...Forgetting there was other more powerful forces at play, all be it planted by the Jesuits was the self awareness of nationhood. Personally I suspect most but not all treasure are not particularly from the Jesuit expulsion period by rather other later events. Such as war of Independence of Latin American countries from Spain in which many clergy was expelled and pure blood Spaniards had for one reasons another flee the country. Support for the clergy ebbed and waned during that time. Not just for the Jesuits but for other orders the Franciscans and Dominicans as wells as rather obscure orders as well, also.

Another Factor 1814 was year that Jesuits was allowed back into the New World but by then 47 years had passed and much of what was had changed as well as society as the new forces for Independence was calling for a new Independence not just free of the Spanish Crown but also free of clerical interference also. Even when Mexico finally gained independence there was effectually a power vacuum. Control of northern Mexico and Sonora was marginal at best.


Its hot siesta time....

Crow

 

[doc-d]

Senor Cuervo, after your señor siesta, please continue your thoughts……
And I would agree, the treasures are far more than the Jesuits, although they often serve as something to focus on for many reasons…….
How is Señorita Amy doing? Married life treating her well? Her well sourced and reasoned posts are missed here…….
Vaya con Dios…….

 

[Crow]

Senor Cuervo, after your señor siesta, please continue your thoughts……
And I would agree, the treasures are far more than the Jesuits, although they often serve as something to focus on for many reasons…….
How is Señorita Amy doing? Married life treating her well? Her well sourced and reasoned posts are missed here…….
Vaya con Dios…….

Hello Doc Sweet Sweet Amy is getting Married Next year in March. Being fluent in several languages she is well suited to her Job. The trio of course miss her and will be at her wedding we will fly out to her wedding in March. It appears I might be in LA in February or late January for a could there for a few days fore Business. I hope it does not co inside with the wedding.

It has been stinking hot to day about 103F. So yeah had good nap time...the sea breeze of ocean has cooled it down a bit. No rain in thundercloud giving the sign of EL Nino is here. Back to drought.

As for this thread many comments are interesting However I think the truth lies rather somewhere between the two extremes.

Crow

 

[gollum]

Hello Doc Sweet Sweet Amy is getting Married Next year in March. Being fluent in several languages she is well suited to her Job. The trio of course miss her and will be at her wedding we will fly out to her wedding in March. It appears I might be in LA in February or late January for a could there for a few days fore Business. I hope it does not co inside with the wedding.

It has been stinking hot to day about 103F. So yeah had good nap time...the sea breeze of ocean has cooled it down a bit. No rain in thundercloud giving the sign of EL Nino is here. Back to drought.

As for this thread many comments are interesting However I think the truth lies rather somewhere between the two extremes.

Crow

When ya get ready to come to LA, give me a heads up. We can go to lunch somewhere!

Mike

 

[Scorch]

Oroblanco,

- Thanks for the book suggestions! That should be more than enough - for quite a while , if I start now ... ,

Thanks!! ,

Scorch

 

[deducer]

Oroblanco,

- Thanks for the book suggestions! That should be more than enough - for quite a while , if I start now ... ,

Thanks!! ,

Scorch

Scorch,

In addition to Roy's excellent recommendations, I would also suggest Fr. Och's travel journals, it reads very well- almost like a modern novel and is quite descriptive. It is as close as we will ever get to those old school Jesuits.

However, if you're looking for clues or outright declarations as far as treasures, you'll be sorely disappointed. The Jesuits who wrote those books, knew they were writing for public consumption.

Now, if you read between the lines.. that's another story.