JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Frankn]

This Jesuit treasure thing is running hot and cold. I have just read two books on this. The first was IN SEARCH OF THE SPANISH TRAIL SANTA FE TO LOS, 1829-1848.
It is by Crampton & Masden. It has good maps and photos and leans toward the view that the trail is newer than some suspect, in fact that it was mainly a trade route.
The thing is I then read LOST TREASURERS ON THE OLD SPANISH TRAIL by Thompson. WOW, this is like night and day. The second book brings out facts that I never heard before. It has documentation, even lists major Spanish explorations/expeditions from 1492-1503(yes Columbus hit the coast of Mexico) to 1847 (Mormons). Yea, they slipped in some non Spanish! It basically shows the use and extension of the trail.
The Jesuit removal started on June of 1767. Within 24 hours all the Jesuits in Mexico were rounded up and taken to Veracuse with only the clothes on there backs and there bibles for deportation. Now here's where the kicker comes in. It took weeks, or even longer for the kings soldiers to reach the far out missions. One Jesuit even tried to ship out his wealth on the ship Dromio, but it was intercepted and the king had him beheaded. I think most have hunted for the two Tumacacori missions. One on each side of the Sana Cruz River. One is known, but the way bill shows great wealth in the mines which are located from the lost mission.
Hay, what can I say? Quien Sabe Frank

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Don't stop there Frankn, or you will not get a refill on your coffee !!!

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

When ya get ready to come to LA, give me a heads up. We can go to lunch somewhere!

Mike

Hey, if he flies you buy. At least cough up a taco or sumptin

 

[gollum]

Hey, if he flies you buy. At least cough up a taco or sumptin

I don't mind taking Old Crow to lunch.

Mike

 

[deducer]

An interesting passage I found from the book:

"The Jesuits: Cultures, Sciences, and the Arts, 1540-1773"

by O'Malley, et al.

Upon this bedrock [of trust and reliability] both Jesuit superiors and Jesuit professors could build a network of reliable agents who were willing to carry out written instructions and, just as important, report on the outcome of those instructions after execution. From the earliest days of the Society- and indeed from the hand of Ignatius himself - there had been instructions, amounting almost to a manual, for the writing of letters. Juan alfonso de Polanco, secretary to Ignatius and later generals, expanded upon these instructions and clarified what sort of information each class of administrative correspondences should contain, the style in which each should be written, how information should be arranged, and so on.

So right from the beginning, and from Ignatius himself, there was already a methodology, and an approach to Jesuit letter-writing that seems to anticipate intrigue, or at the very least some sort of method for transmitting information that was not easily accessed by anyone out of the society. Not that this purports that a lot of intrigue or conspiracy occured, but it did lay the ground or at least enable such things to happen if necessary.

 

[Frankn]

the more I read, the more I am believing that the Jesuits Hid huge amounts of wealth before there eviction.
The link I see are the missions. Not at the missions, but perhaps a short radius from the missions. Most likely in caves or mine shafts. Hay, there are records of the Franciscans also shipping gold back.

THE GUADALUPE TREASURE.
Now I just spotted a basic listing that is the wildest one I have ever seen.
The time is 1767. The Jesuits are trying to remove a vast amount of treasure
Before the expulsion reaches "now AZ territory". The amount stated dazzles the imagination.
It is stated to be 2000 mules loaded with silver ore, 200 mules with gold bars and nuggets.
When they were about 4mi. SW of the Tumacacori Mission, they got word that a large band of Indians was rushing to intercept them.
They hid all the treasure in a mine before rushing to Mexico.This story is almost unbelievable but if the old trails were checked out , at least the area to search is resonable considering an app. distance from the mission and the fact that there is a mine for a target. I wonder if that mission location is known? Is there a listing, book, etc that shows all known mission locations?
Frank

 

[UncleMatt]

If you haven't read through this thread yet, you probably should. It was concluded long ago by more than one participant that the Jesuits likely hid their wealth in mines or caves near their missions. And what's up with the huge painting in your signature line? Any chance of making that smaller?

 

[Frankn]

If you haven't read through this thread yet, you probably should. It was concluded long ago by more than one participant that the Jesuits likely hid their wealth in mines or caves near their missions. And what's up with the huge painting in your signature line? Any chance of making that smaller?

Hay, Uncle Matt , I like your avitar. Any chance of making it larger and improving the resolution? So you don't think I am entitled to post my thoughts and opinions here? Frank
You know, I have always wondered about those rocks!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

mouth not open in admiration LUV, serve the coffee wench. "XIN NIN KUAI"

 

[Frankn]

View attachment 1097519

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

If you haven't read through this thread yet, you probably should. It was concluded long ago by more than one participant that the Jesuits likely hid their wealth in mines or caves near their missions. And what's up with the huge painting in your signature line? Any chance of making that smaller?

Probably a tracking gif type thing, pinging back to your server/IP. An annoyance at best.

 

[deducer]

To continue with the surprising number of precedents that Ignatius instituted for his new order, I really don't think it's possible to overestimate his cunning, or ability to strategically plan for the long term. A lot of people see him as an ex-soldier turned priest, but I feel that is overtly simplistic. It is quite apparent that he had an innate talent for strategy and organization, and was a top-notch tactician. Ignatius, quite frankly, saw or foresaw the Jesuits as being the alpha male order of the Church, or perhaps even more than that, and planned to that effect.

Where I had thought that the role of the Jesuit as confessor to royalty had, or was something that had evolved as the order grew, that practice, in fact was put into place by Ignatius and strongly encouraged- this in part supported by this article and others: Jesuits and the 30 year war. It was an unprecedented method of heavily influencing politics.

And this is leading me to think critically about Ignatius's declaration (and subsequent requirement) that a Jesuit church be a "well-adorned church."

Could this have been a dual-purpose declaration?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gracias luv, its it with cream ?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

deducer my friend, simply go to your favorite searce server and type in Jesuit conspiracies. A no are patently biased but an over whelming are very interesting. while you are searching ?

 

[Frankn]

To continue with the surprising number of precedents that Ignatius instituted for his new order, I really don't think it's possible to overestimate his cunning, or ability to strategically plan for the long term. A lot of people see him as an ex-soldier turned priest, but I feel that is overtly simplistic. It is quite apparent that he had an innate talent for strategy and organization, and was a top-notch tactician. Ignatius, quite frankly, saw or foresaw the Jesuits as being the alpha male order of the Church, or perhaps even more than that, and planned to that effect.

Where I had thought that the role of the Jesuit as confessor to royalty had, or was something that had evolved as the order grew, that practice, in fact was put into place by Ignatius and strongly encouraged- this in part supported by this article and others: Jesuits and the 30 year war. It was an unprecedented method of heavily influencing politics.

And this is leading me to think critically about Ignatius's declaration (and subsequent requirement) that a Jesuit church be a "well-adorned church."

Could this have been a dual-purpose declaration?

Actually the king set the situation at the missions. 2 sets of high quality vestments a large mission bell, etc were required. I believe he even paid for them but he required them to be self sufficient over a set period of time. Frank

 

[gollum]

Actually the king set the situation at the missions. 2 sets of high quality vestments a large mission bell, etc were required. I believe he even paid for them but he required them to be self sufficient over a set period of time. Frank View attachment 1098390

Frankn,

Do you have a source for that?

What the King (of Spain) paid was 200 pesos per year for each Missionary Father. The idea was that through crops and livestock, the missions were supposed to become self sufficient over time.

Mike

 

[Frankn]

Well, I dug into that story about the San Cayetano de Tumacacori mission and the extremely large cache in my post above.
The mission is between Tuson and Nogales on the west side of the Santa Cruz River. The mission had 2 mines that it worked.
The Virgin Guadalupe, located 1 league SW of the mission & 1800 Varas N of "the waters of the San Ramos" ( Mitchell Jan. 41- Desert)
The San Pedro, 1 1/2 leagues from W side of mission, most likely on side of San Cayetand Mt. (Mitchell Dec 41 Desert) on SW end (Mitchell 47)
The output of these mines could support the story of such a large mule train. Frank

PS, That mission also had 3 large bells that turned up missing.

 

[Frankn]

Frankn,

Do you have a source for that?

What the King (of Spain) paid was 200 pesos per year for each Missionary Father. The idea was that through crops and livestock, the missions were supposed to become self sufficient over time.

Mike

Mike ,I read 12 magazines and several books each month and some stuff sticks and some is instantly discarded so i am not good at refrencing things. I just read this in
Lost Treasure On The Old Spanish Trail by George Thompson. Page 35."It was very much to the advantage of the Jesuits to establish missions wherever they could, for the royal treasury paid each mission the equivalent of $450each year, plus 350 pesos for each friar assigned. The crown also paid an initial $1,000 for vestments,bells and tools. There were also private gifts and endowments, often greater than the crown paid. Frank

 

[audigger53]

Well, I dug into that story about the San Cayetano de Tumacacori mission and the extremely large cache in my post above.
The mission is between Tuson and Nogales on the west side of the Santa Cruz River. The mission had 2 mines that it worked.
The Virgin Guadalupe, located 1 league SW of the mission & 1800 Varas N of "the waters of the San Ramos" ( Mitchell Jan. 41- Desert)
The San Pedro, 1 1/2 leagues from W side of mission, most likely on side of San Cayetand Mt. (Mitchell Dec 41 Desert) on SW end (Mitchell 47)
The output of these mines could support the story of such a large mule train. Frank View attachment 1098412

PS, That mission also had 3 large bells that turned up missing.
View attachment 1098426

Actually it had 7 sub missions and mines from all the research I could find. All smaller than the mine the mission had for itself. Finding the chest with the reliquaries in it and the Map of the 7 missions would well be worth finding. One story that had others that linked to it was the Canyon De La Caretta. 4 different stories with interlocking threads. All about either the Guadalupe or leading to the Mission at Sonyoita. In 1982 I and my brother personally saw the shadows of the mission and Upper Chapel ruins across the Border. Unfortunately they were also in plain view of a Federally Barracks, so we left. Hard work digging into stories to get there and blind luck for the setting sun to show us the shadows on the ground with 10X50's. Upper Chapel was a perfect square the was counter sunk in the center(ie the cellar). There's more to the story, but the upper Chapel was exavated in 1910( which was where they stored the gold bars they made from their mine ).

 

[gollum]

Okay,

I have been in Tumacacori several times. I have a friend that lives there, and has the only active Treasure Trove Permit that I know of.

Now this is something that everybody should have gotten from reading my initial post in this thread. Mining was strictly forbidden for the Jesuits by Ecclesiastical Precept. There is not one shred of documentary evidence that supports widespread Jesuit Mining. Everything we have found to date is mostly circumstantial. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely know the Jesuits operated mines. I absolutely know they had great wealth.

You can't just come out and say that Tumacacori had such and such number of mines. Officially, they didn't have any mines. There are no documents or Church records that say the Mission had mines. All anybody can do is guess about how many mines and such the mission had. You also can't just say the Virgen de Guadalupe is any particular distance from the Mission. Where you are referring to is a place called Javelina Canyon, which runs off of Peck Canyon. Javelina Canyon has been torn up, blown up, and dug up since 1767 by people looking for that treasure. Also, it is more than likely the Virgen de Guadalupe was not a mine. Anybody familiar with the place knows that Tumacacori Mountain is not mineralized. Some of the mountains around it are. There is only one mention of an authentic Church Document. It was mentioned in the story about the finding of The Wandering Jew Mine. That story is also in this thread.

Here is a part of a map that shows the Missions in Pimeria Alta:



All that said, keep sharing. We love information.

Mike