JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Side thimgie. go to

"You Tube,free full movies, Black Robe"


for a glimpse of the mission Jesuit, fascinating movie.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Oroblanco]

Sailaway wrote

and ORo, it does apply to these mines as they are sacred Indian sites, or at least the Mina Virgon it does.

I don't wish to pick a bone with you but it will require some historical documentation to establish any mine as having enough importance to qualify as an historical site needing protection. Heck they (NPS) didn't bother to make the Homestake mine or Comstock into historic monuments, it is very doubtful that they would for any mine without other important factors, like a sacred Indian site which again would take proof.


Somero wrote
<quoting Sailaway>

The Pope had visited the missions that year <snip>

Can somebody elaborate on the highlighted phrase please?

Perhaps it was a mistake, writing Pope instead of the Jesuit General, for one General did visit America and helped the case for Jesuit control of California but I am unsure that it was that year?

Don Jose de la Error wrote

Cibola is in Mexico

Err, ah, you left out the NEW part of that statement amigo, and it is partly in New Mexico, partly in Arizona not Old Mexico. But that is quite another discussion eh?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... Err, ah, you left out the NEW part of that statement amigo, and it is partly in New Mexico, partly in Arizona not Old Mexico. But that is quite another discussion eh? ...
Oroblanco

That would be an interesting, and probably exhausting, discussion all right. I certainly agree with your target area. I of course would offer as one of the seven nodes on the map the mountain known by some as 'Santo Nino de Atocha'. Hints: research what land-based properties the Mel Fisher organization attempted to control during the '80's; figure out who the patron saint is in America's oldest Spanish mining district. Same places where Estavanico led that scamp Marcos de Niza in 1539.

 

[Somero]

Gentlemen, Thanks for the input on the "Pope"

As for my interpretation of a legua, accounts that I have read give a distances from San Xavier del Bac to Tuscon 3 league's, from Tuscon to Tubac 30 league's and Tumacacori 1 league south of Tubac.

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen, Thanks for the input on the "Pope"

As for my interpretation of a legua, accounts that I have read give a distances from San Xavier del Bac to Tuscon 3 league's, from Tuscon to Tubac 30 league's and Tumacacori 1 league south of Tubac.

Eric,

San Xavier Del Bac is a beautiful, historic church:





The interior of the church was completely black from years of candles being burned inside. When the restoration was begun it revealed the interior as you see it here.

Take care,

Joe

 

[sailaway]

Springfield it interesting to me that you know those facts. I bought my mining gear in Middleburg, Fl. and I am friends with Kip Fisher, Lived in Key West in the 80's, and there are many public places in St. Augustine, Fl. that have my tile work in them. What a beautiful church. It reminds me of the one in Puerto de Santa Maria, Spain, where I lived as a young man.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, sniff, you posted --> I don't wish to pick a bone with you but it will require some historical documentation to establish any mine as having enough importance to qualify as an historical site needing protection.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Not even in Mexico for the Jesuits Tayopa ?? Of course until I give them the entry / proof , it is still just a legend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[deducer]

is this the report you refer to? This is only the first page and it is 21 pages long and not the only document I found in my research. more good reading is Frier Marco de Nica on Cibola, The account of discovery of the mines in 1599 by Captian Marcos de los Gotos

I am referring to the Favores Celestiales.

What you quoted (Report and Relation of the New Conversions) is part five of the Favores Celestiales which has already been translated into English and published.

 

[Oroblanco]

To Cactusjumper - thank you again for the link on father Segesser's letters; have you read them? There are some interesting things in his letters, like requesting for his relatives to send him a GOLD SCALE. Then later on, we find him complaining about his situation with the unwelcome guests whom descend on his mission rather like locusts, never offering to pay for the food they eat, and being unable to find good men to hire for supervisors - followed by a rather shocking statement. I will post it here for those whom have not read the letters, quote

The countless business matters, the continuous correspondence [he uses the term ‘letter carriers’] (in this year, 1753, even two resmas papel [reams of paper] have not been enough to answer all the letters and other writings, as the need arises. I even hardly find the time to read the breviary and to carry out other spiritual exercises. Then there are the unexpected daily guests, among them the most highly ranking in this province, such as the governors, mayors, captains, and all, really all, arrive with very many servants, and not one pays the least amount of money, yet they eat up my mission and exhaust me so much that I often do not know how to handle my budget. I have to get involved in everything and make orders concerning the kitchen, the garden, fields, corn boxes, cattle, and horses, chicken, pigeons, geese, pigs, mules. With one word, everything that concerns both the church and the household falls on me since I do not find any trustworthy servant in these regions. [Anyone whom I hire] immediately acts arrogantly and requires supervision by the father missionary, and later must be paid 500 to 600 Spanish thalers, which cost a lot of sweat and labor to come by. After all, because of the constant riots of the Indians one cannot work securely in the silver and gold mines [literally: mountains].

<Letter to his brother Ulrich Franz Joseph Segesser. San Miguel de los Ures, April 28, 1754 pp 190>

Now some may interpret this in another way so as to keep the Jesuits innocent of gold and silver mining, but it certainly reads to me that it is Segesser himself whom had to expend a lot of sweat and labor to come up with the money to pay a hired man, and cannot work in safety at the gold and silver mines. In another letter he mentions that a gold mine is found near his mission which if true will improve his revenues as well. Considering that his Spanish visitors are not paying for what they consume on their visits to his mission, how could this gold mine increase his revenues if he did not intend that it would be directly under the proprietorship of his mission?

It is a fascinating insight into early 1700s Arizona and Sonora, including his repeated complaints about the members of his own Order being the worst thieves of goods he had shipped from Europe. This collection of letters, in combination with the other evidence presented several years ago, might have helped settle the issue considerably sooner.

I have not seen the report of father Kino mentioning having shipped the gold and silver which was mentioned in a post by Sailaway earlier, still looking, any hints on where I might find this part of the report would be welcome.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"To Cactusjumper - thank you again for the link on father Segesser's letters; have you read them?"

Nahh.....Just find and post stuff like that to impress folks. I believe you are aware that I have all of the letters, and I can assure you I have read each and every one of them. It helps to read all of the individual letters, and not just post parts of them. What is written just before quotes, and after, is often very important.

It's true that I can find reasons for what he wrote that don't match your own reasoning. The Jesuits did deal in gold and silver for payments on the goods they supplied to the mines and other Spanish needs. Without a "gold scale", would Segesser simply eyeball the proper amount of gold needed for the goods sold?

A gold mine found near a mission would surely bring miners, their families as well as people to support the enterprise and by extension, the mission. The next thing you know.......ya got civilization.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Most of this is addressed to our mutual amigo Cactusjumper Joe, whom I still have some hopes of convincing about this subject, and the post got very long-winded so please feel free to skip it, otherwise I must beg your indulgence yet again. Thank you in advance.


Cactusjumper wrote

ahh.....Just find and post stuff like that to impress folks.

I asked because I was surprised you had never mentioned those letters with rather dammin' evidence, thinking perhaps you had missed them, and the possibility that the ONLINE version may have different materials from the book you have. I have found this to be the case with other books, the materials online are not a complete match for a published book even when on the same topic.

Cactusjumper also wrote

It's true that I can find reasons for what he wrote that don't match your own reasoning. The Jesuits did deal in gold and silver for payments on the goods they supplied to the mines and other Spanish needs. Without a "gold scale", would Segesser simply eyeball the proper amount of gold needed for the goods sold?

Segesser makes NO mention of selling ANY supplies to the Spanish, and includes a request for crowbars in his lists of things to ship. Does he need six crowbars to open the purses of the Spanish? Are crowbars of much use in farming, where the farm fields as he noted have NO ROCKS? More on this in a moment, but how can you read this pair of sentences:

[Anyone whom I hire] immediately acts arrogantly and requires supervision by the father missionary, and later must be paid 500 to 600 Spanish thalers, which cost a lot of sweat and labor to come by. After all, because of the constant riots of the Indians one cannot work securely in the silver and gold mines [literally: mountains].

- in any way other than Segesser is complaining that money to pay a hired hand is hard to come by, since he cannot work securely in the silver and gold mines due to the constant threat of Indian attacks? Remember he mentioned having to oversee EVERY enterprise of his Indians too.


Cactusjumper also wrote

A gold mine found near a mission would surely bring miners, their families as well as people to support the enterprise and by extension, the mission. The next thing you know.......ya got civilization.

The lands around the missions were largely considered the property OF the missions, and a mine located in Mission property would hardly be Spanish property. Here is that statement for those whom have not seen it:

In the meantime few events have occurred that would be worth to be reported, except that not far from here a goldmine was discovered. They say that it is very rich.
May God grant that this will be true. Then this mission will recover a little, after it has, as I have told you previously, suffered many losses because of the constant unrests by the hostile neighbors and because of the need to entertain guests and soldiers who either stay here or pass through.

Letter to his brother Ulrich Franz Joseph Segesser. San Miguel de los Ures, June 17,
1754 <pp 192>


Segesser does NOT say that Spaniards discovered a gold mine near his mission, and does state that if it is true his mission will recover a little as a direct result of this mine, and also mentions the drain on resources from Spaniards whom visit and never offer to pay for what they consume. Also if your take on those passages were the correct one, would not an influx of Spanish miners and their families, mean an influx of people almost certain to come into direct conflict with his Indians, not to mention a further drain on his food and livestock without payment?
The fact that Segesser repeatedly complains about the Spanish passing through, demanding food and lodging, horses etc NEVER PAYING FOR THEM, certainly flies in the face of the assumption about the missions SELLING all kinds of foodstuffs and supplies to the same Spaniards. Don't you see a problem with that version of events? If Segesser were really SELLING to the Spaniards and this were the source of such incomes, he would rather then desire more Spanish visitors, rather than complaining they arrive all too often, or is my logic flawed there?


In my opinion there really is no other way to interpret Segesser's letters; he has need of a gold scale because he is in the Silver mountains country and this silver mining is a part of his mission's enterprises, he is pestered by Spanish visitors whom eat the mission foods and remove livestock without ever paying for them and he is unable to work the mines very much due to the threat of hostile Indians.


As to his poverty, he is another example of the contradictions you can find in almost every Jesuit mission; personally he is not too wealthy but is able to send away for things in faraway Europe, including some rather nice things, and mentions plunking down 2500 Spanish dollars to pay for some work, though his stipend is only 350 dollars per annum. Where did he get that large sum? Certainly Segesser was not working to personally enrich himself by the proceeds of the "many businesses" he complains of having to manage.


As to those whom believe the padres had NO involvment in any mining, note that Segesser also repeatedly complains about having to personally oversee ALL kinds of work, and not being able to fully entrust this management to anyone. Again, he writes of having lost 16 of "HIS" horses, killed by hostiles, and a further 50 head stolen besides - not horses belonging to the Mission nor to the Indians, (which in their view as a legal sense, were one and the same for Indians were not allowed to own property, being equivalent to minor children in the law) and I could point out that 65 horses would make for a fairly well-heeled person in the 1700s on the frontier, certainly wealthy in many Indian tribal terms.


Even those lists of things which father Segesser is requesting his relatives to obtain and ship to him from Europe, are not asked for without his promise to pay for them. In another letter Segesser mentions his plan to send a "golden ball" to another father, so that he will not have to live in penury - what sort of a "golden ball" would allow a man to live more comfortably, unless it is actually made of gold? Doesn't the "golden ball" sound a bit too reminiscent of the round balls of gold, covered in chocolate discovered by the authorities being shipped by the Jesuits?


The mines of the Jesuits were only one aspect of their enterprises; farming and ranching, sugar refining, banking, even retail stores were among their many and varied business pursuits. It certainly appears that a big reason these mines were not operated on a much larger scale, was the presence of hostile Apaches and Seris, as well as the padres inability to be everywhere at once, as so many of the Jesuit padres complained, their mission Indians would not work hard unless driven to it.


Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

I have mentioned elsewhere that I suspect Fr. Carlos de Rojas (of Arizpe) of being a major player in matters related to mining or Jesuit treasure in general.

Enter exhibit A:



which is the facade of St. Francis Xavier Parish in Phoenix, AZ.

The three figures are: On top, Ignatius Loyola. To his right, Eusebio Kino, and to his left, Fr. Carlos de Rojas (your right, when looking at the picture).

The fact that the statue is Fr. Rojas is confirmed by a few sources, one of who is a poster, Joey W. who related elsewhere that:

One of the places we visited during our stay was a Catholic Church in downtown Phoenix. One of the things that we were most impressed with were some statues of Priests. As we were admiring them a Priest came across the courtyard and paused for a moment to speak with us as. We asked him who the Priests were in the statues. I remember him saying that the one was Father Kino (which we both had assumed) and another was Father Rojas.

This was furthermore confirmed by Jim Hatt, who had his own, separate, source.

Now, imagine my surprise when I found out that the St. Francis Xavier Parish is now denying that it is Fr. Rojas, and this is confirmed by their church brochure. They are now claiming that the statue on your right, in the picture above, is of the Franciscan monk, Junipero Serra, even though it looks absolutely nothing like the real Serra. Please find below, exhibit B and C, two different statues of the real Serra who you will notice bears no resemblance to what is on the facade:



Note on both authentic Serra statues, the Franciscan habit with its typical simple white rope going down the right side of the statues, as well as the oversized cowl.

This is not so on the statue on your right on the facade in the first picture. That statue is also wearing Jesuit beads that are exactly identical to the beads that Kino has in his right hand, on the other side of the facade.

Now why should the Parish lie so blatantly about something like this?

What did Rojas do to incur such drastic behavior?

Also, one another thing- the Parish is claiming that the bell below the statue is the "El Camino Real mission bell," (per the brochure). As if Serra has anything to do with a bell, never mind one with sprues still attached.

Furthermore, "El Camino Real" as we know it, isn't a mission, but the King's highway, connecting 21 missions in Alta California. None of them are named "El Camino Real."

On the other hand, we do know the story of Rojas and the silver bell.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Not sure where you got this:

"Segesser makes NO mention of selling ANY supplies to the Spanish, and includes a request forcrowbars in his lists of things to ship." But believe you are in error attributing it to Father Segesser.

This comes from:

[The Ghosts of Frontiers Past: Making and Unmaking Space in the Borderlands
Author(s): Samuel Truett
Source: Journal of the Southwest, Vol. 46, No. 2, Scholarship from the William P. Clements
Center for Southwest Studies (Summer, 2004), PP. 309-350
Published by: Journal of the Southwest
Stable URL: ]JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


"Along colonial roads, merchants shipped sheepskin bellows for the smelting furnaces, quicksilver to extract silver in the arrastms, and the various iron tools - picks, hammers, and crowbars - used in the mines.All had to be imported to Sonora at great cost. Paths leading from the outside world to Sonora's mines were also conduits for such luxury items as wine, olive oil, tobacco, pottery, silks, and tailored clothhing, goods that were generally produced thousands of miles from the frontier. Frontier merchants, most of them from the crossroads of Parral, controlled this overland traffic. They were responsible not only for purchasing and selling goods, but also for freighting silver south to Mexico City. Since Sonora, like most frontiers, was cash poor, these merchants also doubled as bankers, making loans to prospectors and other mining entrepreneurs. Their special access to outside markets and investment capital gave them a control over..........."

The above quote comes directly from the author, Samuel Truett. He does not attribute any of it to Father Segesser or to any other Jesuit priest. On the other hand, he does mention Father Segesser in other places around the quote. Those mentions have nothing to do with anything in the quote.

I don't see where Father Segesser requests "crowbars" in any of his letters, or elsewhere.

What you see as damning evidence, I see as complete fiction. If you can cite where the priest requests crowbars, I will give you the accolades you deserve.

On the other hand, if deducer likes it, how wrong could you possibly be?

Take care my friend,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

I have mentioned elsewhere that I suspect Fr. Carlos de Rojas (of Arizpe) of being a major player in matters related to mining or Jesuit treasure in general.

Enter exhibit A:

View attachment 972096

which is the facade of St. Francis Xavier Parish in Phoenix, AZ.

The three figures are: On top, Ignatius Loyola. To his right, Eusebio Kino, and to his left, Fr. Carlos de Rojas (your right, when looking at the picture).

The fact that the statue is Fr. Rojas is confirmed by a few sources, one of who is a poster, Joey W. who related elsewhere that:



This was furthermore confirmed by Jim Hatt, who had his own, separate, source.

Now, imagine my surprise when I found out that the St. Francis Xavier Parish is now denying that it is Fr. Rojas, and this is confirmed by their church brochure. They are now claiming that the statue on your right, in the picture above, is of the Franciscan monk, Junipero Serra, even though it looks absolutely nothing like the real Serra. Please find below, exhibit B and C, two different statues of the real Serra who you will notice bears no resemblance to what is on the facade:

View attachment 972098 View attachment 972099

Note on both authentic Serra statues, the Franciscan habit with its typical simple white rope going down the right side of the statues, as well as the oversized cowl.

This is not so on the statue on your right on the facade in the first picture. That statue is also wearing Jesuit beads that are exactly identical to the beads that Kino has in his right hand, on the other side of the facade.

Now why should the Parish lie so blatantly about something like this?

What did Rojas do to incur such drastic behavior?

Also, one another thing- the Parish is claiming that the bell below the statue is the "El Camino Real mission bell," (per the brochure). As if Serra has anything to do with a bell, never mind one with sprues still attached.

Furthermore, "El Camino Real" as we know it, isn't a mission, but the King's highway, connecting 21 missions in Alta California. None of them are named "El Camino Real."

On the other hand, we do know the story of Rojas and the silver bell.

deducer,

In your opinion, where in Father Rojas' history do you insert his "treasure"? IMHO, you make some giant leaps of faith in damning the St. Francis Xavier Parish with such fervor.

Jim Hatt?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

deducer,

IMHO, you make some giant leaps of faith in damning the St. Francis Xavier Parish with such fervor.

Jim Hatt?

Joe Ribaudo

Please show me where I am taking a leap of faith. I have shown that the statue on the right on the facade is very clearly not Serra.

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


Not sure where you got this:


"Segesser makes NO mention of selling ANY supplies to the Spanish, and includes a request for crowbars in his lists of things to ship." But believe you are in error attributing it to Father Segesser.


This comes from:


[The Ghosts of Frontiers Past: Making and Unmaking Space in the Borderlands

No amigo, that sentence you see as extracted from that publication, is my own words. I did not attribute them to Segesser, I was stating that Segesser NEVER mentions selling ANY thing to the Spaniards, not in any of those letters in the online version. You are welcome to re-read it yourself, and please point out where Segesser has mentioned selling stuff to Spaniards as produce from his mission, but I saw NO such mention. Hence that statement. I do TRY to use the quotation blocks for every quote taken from a source.


Cactusjumper also wrote

I don't see where Father Segesser requests "crowbars" in any of his letters, or elsewhere.


What you see as damning evidence, I see as complete fiction. If you can cite where the priest requests crowbars, I will give you the accolades you deserve.

Accolades? I thought we were having a discussion/debate, not seeking honorariums. However I will post the exact passages for you, as apparently you did not see it when you read Segesser's letters, for your approval. This letter was written very shortly after father Segesser had arrived at his mission of San Xavier del Bac.

Here in the silver mountains there are hardly any silver spoons among us Fathers Missionaries, such as [illustrated] yesterday when I was called to Hímuri to another Father to discuss some business with the Honorable Capitan of this Pimería alta. We four at at the table had not more than two spoons, one fork, and one knife, the little salt was in a broken husk of a fruit. A Dios. One thing I would have almost forgotten: for the scythes and sickles we also need a whetting stick [stone?] and a hammer so that you can sharpen them. Hence I am also requesting that. Item. verum hoc soli Domino Fratri commendo, ne vanitatis me arguunt imprudentes, si audirent. velit mihi sclopetam fortem ad jaculandum scilicet lupos, leones, cervos, etc., quorum hic copia ait, mittere, tum ut in periculis me defendam, tum ut aliqoties [when I am in danger, I defend myself,and then, like the others] if I catch a little venison in the wilderness or on a long journey. You can find those also among the others, but still, sub rosa. prudenti satis [Latin: in secret (through the rose, or flower, an idiomatic phrase here): a word to the wise is sufficient]. The pipe can be taken out of the stem and kept well in the butter churner, together with the stem, the wiper, the clams, etc., so that nothing can be damaged. That what I have underlined the Juncker Brother should, after he has read it, delete it so that no foreign eyes can see it.
<snip>
If the Juncker Brother has not yet sent the requested items, would you please add also: 6 scissors to shear sheep, of which I have half a dozen. Item[Latin: also] good, strong, round and flat crow bars, ca. half a dozen, of every kind, also smaller ones.
Item [Latin: also]. A dozen whetting stones.
Item. 2 or four hatchets or picks.
Item. 2 gardening knives
Item. 12 small pie moulds.
<snip>
. One sugar scale, if available with yellow
[brass] weights. And if possible, a gold scale, also with the weights.

< Letter to his brother brother Ulrich Franz Joseph Segesser. San Xavier del Bac,
December 15, 1731 pp 128-130>


Still think I just made it all up? It is extracted directly from the letter listed at the site with Segesser's letters which you kindly pointed out.


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS
I forgot to include these statements, also from Segesser's letters, since nothing I say is ever taken as truthful, here are the direct extracts:
First, that Segesser asking his family to purchase and ship the list of things is NOT CHARITY since he will pay for it,

Would the Juncker Brother put everything on one bill? Everything that cost money should be orderly (pointed out) displayed, The payment, as I have written on the margin, will surely come upon opportunity with great thanks. And the Juncker Brother therefore should not doubt that. Whether it is in Munich, or in the Mexican province, in Munich, Rome or elsewhere, wherever the costs occur, all the expenses will exactly be paid. Therefore,the Juncker Brother will not miss one heller.

For our readers, an Heller is the lowest valued coin in Germany and Switzerland of the 1700's, equal to the farthing of English coin, which is a quarter penny.


Next, another request for a GOLD SCALE

Would the Juncker Brother cover everything that is out of iron with tallow, or, even better, coverit with chalk.
Tools out of iron [cont.]
2 little ladles
1 little roast spit
1 sugar scale
1 gold scale, if it is not too expensive
1 kitchen syringe
some pins
1 ladle to melt lead in it
1 strong but small shotgun, etc.

<ibid, posted above letter extract>


Now to reinforce about WHY DOES HE WANT CROW BARS, here is from his very next letter,

One cannot find a single rock in the dirt, but it is not too sandy either and has a very good pasture for cattle on the sides where the little bit of water flows, which is used to water the fields and which is used by the folks

Letter to his brother Ulrich Franz Joseph Segesser. San Xavier del Bac, June 8, 1732, pp 134>


So there in Segesser's letters we have him asking for CROW BARS (plural) and GOLD SCALES, then complaining that he has to give a lot of sweat and hard work to pay for a hired manager, since he CAN'T WORK THE GOLD AND SILVER MINES IN SAFETY. He also mentions the discovery of a rich gold mine, right near his mission, which will improve the financial situation of that mission.


I fail to see how this is all FICTIONAL. The only fiction is the modern attempt to whitewash the record of the Jesuits, the first European miners and smelters in Arizona. The fact that so little of their treasures have ever been accounted for only proves that it was well hidden, as were most of the mines.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"since nothing I say is ever taken as truthful, here are the direct extracts"

I take everything.....everything you say as your believing it is truthful. That does not mean it is factual. It's possible that my copy of the letter in question was not translated correctly. It's also possible that your translation was done in error.

Taking that as my guide, I have just reread the entire letter (#48) from 15 December 1731. Here is the list where you have "Item[Latin: also] good, strong, round and flat crow bars, ca. half a dozen, of every kind, also smaller ones.

Here is what the list in my book from 2012 states: "half dozen good, strong, round and flat chisels, about a half dozen of each kind, also smaller ones"

Someone's source is in error.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

"since nothing I say is ever taken as truthful, here are the direct extracts"

I take everything.....everything you say as your believing it is truthful. That does not mean it is factual. It's possible that my copy of the letter in question was not translated correctly. It's also possible that your translation was done in error.

Taking that as my guide, I have just reread the entire letter (#48) from 15 December 1731. Here is the list where you have "Item[Latin: also] good, strong, round and flat crow bars, ca. half a dozen, of every kind, also smaller ones.

Here is what the list in my book from 2012 states: "half dozen good, strong, round and flat chisels, about a half dozen of each kind, also smaller ones"

Someone's source is in error.

Take care,

Joe

I do not have the original letters, however either translation would be very useful MINING TOOLS for chisels are necessary for hard rock mining. I carry a couple with me on every prospecting trip. So it hardly matters which translation is erroneous, especially in view of Segesser's other comments like not being able to get money easily since he cannot work the mines in safety. One might start to wonder, especially with the modern whitewash effort going on, if there has not been some deliberate mis-translation to help conceal the mining activities. The online book by the way, is among the Jesuit apologist variety, having a long introduction ridiculing the "black legend" so the fact that they let slip the passages about the requests for gold scales, crow bars (or chisels) along with the statement about the gold and silver mines, should not be taken lightly.

To me it looks rather to be reaching, to try to explain ALL of this evidence away as the fictional work of fevered treasure hunters. Mike posted where father Och had collected copper to use to cast bells, we have Nentvig's listings of various mines of the missions (and separately, of the Spaniards), as well as his anecdote about how an Indian will not reveal the location of a mine even when the missionary promises him all sorts of things, the Catholic study which listed a number of mines owned by the Jesuits openly (and notably, not mentioned by Nentvig or Polzer we might add) the incident found by the researcher West about the mines being operated by Jesuits and claimed to be owned by their college, and even Polzer mentioned an instance where priests were "caught" mining, and each of these is treated as if it were an unique incident!

The Jesuits had their own ships too, including a smaller ship that accompanied the Manila Galleon carrying their goods. They were almost certainly intriguing with the English and Dutch, and were implicated in numerous political intrigues. The Spanish and Portuguese searched the Jesuit properties for the wealth they KNEW the Jesuits had been accumulating, and largely failed to find it - which only proves that it was well hidden. Some has been found.

There was a reason why Segesser referred to the area of San Xavier del Bac as the SILVER MOUNTAINS, for the many silver mines the Jesuits discovered and opened in southern Arizona. As Segesser wrote, there is as much lead as silver here, and he asked for pellet moulds for his shotgun as well. Remember, the only Spanish mining activity in Arizona was at Arizonac, the famous "planchas de plata" which played out in a few years. The rest were being mined by Indians under direct supervision of the padres. For this I site the USGS and AZGS publications which credit the Jesuits as the pioneer miners of Arizona.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS Don't take anything I say as factual - read it all over for yourself, but this time look for the evidence of mining and treasures instead of looking for excuses and explanations to try to explain it all away. You may get a different conclusion.