JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

My digs at deducer have more to do with where he was immediately coming from in his attitude towards me, something you yourself noticed. Despite that, I try to maintain a positive conversation going with the man.
I am no more offensive to deducer, than he has been to me.

Maintaining an attitude towards you is unnecessary for me. What I am after here, are facts, not speculations or claims. What I mean by facts is something that is corroborated by research, by citing sources, as that is helpful to all of us, irregardless of our positions. So when you make unsupported statements such as the following:

I know that the trail maps lead one into the southwestern end of the range and eventually to Little Boulder Canyon.

I will call you out each and every time. You may mistake that as hostility, but that is of no concern to me. You seem to fail to understand that the above statement is an opinion and not a fact. You claim to know that the trail maps lead to Little Boulder Canyon, but you have not offered much in the way of proof, so your theory carries just as much weight as Markmar's theory, yet you feel justified to tell him you feel your theory is better. That is not constructive, and contributes nothing to anyone's understanding the Stone Maps.

I like Roy's posts because they are very informative and well researched. When he has an opinion, it is backed by fact. He has cited sources where necessary. I will like anyone's posts where the poster has done good, solid research, or is genuinely interested in discussing the subject in depth, in an attempt to broaden knowledge, or build on it.

You still have not shown me how I am 'making giant leaps of faith damning the St. Francis Xavier Parish.'

 

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[deducer]

One thing I find interesting is Mr. Ribaudo's admission that he was once a strong supporter of the 'Jesuit mining' argument, but years of thorough research on his part caused him to change his opinion. And, until a 'smoking gun' appears, that's all we can have - an opinion, or for many, a wish.

Sorry but I fail to see what you mean by 'thorough' research. Exactly what 'thorough' research has Joe done?

 

[coazon de oro]

Thanks to Igadbois for the link:
1691 - Father Kino Ingots from Sonora, Mexico - Holabird-Kagin Americana

For those who don't want to wade through the technicalities presented by a experienced mining man and numismatic antiquities dealer, here's the takeaway:

" ... Conclusion
The Kino ingots were placed into the American marketplace more than six decades ago amidst a cloud of uncertainty and questions. Their origin has carefully been kept secret, letting rumors fly in the wake of clever stories, most rendered without a shred of proof.
The men or man who made them carefully placed them into the numismatic world. Over time, other suspicious precious metal ingots were also placed into the numismatic world. The place of origin of many of these questionable or fake ingots was Arizona. The men responsible continued to improve their techniques and place more bad ingots into circulation.
The Kino ingots seen and tested here are, in all probability and currently beyond the possibility of reasonable doubt fake. The chemistry of the ingots underlies this fact, given that the association of the specific metals contained herein are not natural. It is further emphasized by the direct tie of this specific alloy to a man made, constructed metal alloy used in modern times, thought to be developed after about 1940. These two bars were clearly made in a manner to look like silver, feel like silver, and weigh like silver. They were thus made to deceive."

Thanks for posting that Springfield. I had been reluctant to say they were fake since I couldn't find the link. I had seen a similar link some months ago after one of those fake bars turned up for sale on ebay.

Some people go out of their way just to make a name for themselves. In my honest opinion books on Spanish treasure signs, and shadow signs, are just as deceiving, it is just the authors imagination gone wild. Spanish treasures would not be lost if could just follow the signs, but many innocent vulnerable treasure hunters swallow the hook, and put the authors on a pedestal. Every thing they see is a treasure sign telling them the treasure is close by.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Sorry but I fail to see what you mean by 'thorough' research. Exactly what 'thorough' research has Joe done?

You might ask the same of Azmula.

 

[cactusjumper]

Sorry but I fail to see what you mean by 'thorough' research. Exactly what 'thorough' research has Joe done?

deducer,

Looks like you have me pegged. I only dabble in research.

Roy,

"After this accounting, which adequately explains how little was left over, namely nothing at all, would I be likely to ask for alms and a considerable contribution? Yes."

I have left some room here for further debate.

Take care,

Joe

 

[deducer]

You might ask the same of Azmula.

We're talking about Joe here, not Azmula.

Azmula appeared to have done some good research, but as he refused to reveal his sources, what he said can't really be taken for fact.

 

[deducer]

deducer,

Looks like you have me pegged. I only dabble in research.

Why don't you humor me for a minute and walk me through why your 'thorough research' has caused you to deny that there are Jesuit treasure.

I'm also still waiting for an answer to the question I asked you.

 

[Springfield]

... I must respectfully disagree - the Catholic study of the Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767, conclusively proves the Order owned and operated MINES. ...

"This debate (the existence of significant hidden treasures resulting from large-scale Jesuit mining in North America)..." [My quote, and as far as I'm concerned, the premise of this thread and debate.]

Except for the pattern established, what happened in Mexico does nothing to provide specific evidence north of the border. The spirit of this thread is to discuss the so-called 'industrial-scale' mining in North America and the 'massive precious metals caches' left behind by the Jesuits following their expulsion. We have already conceded the likelihood of their modest workings and allegations regarding church paraphernalia caches. Please - stay within the parameters.

...Further, we have legends of lost mines which, according to the Indians whom passed the stories to earlier treasure hunters, were worked by the padres using the Indians as labor, and which were deliberately hidden on their departure. Some of these legendary mines have been found, and you can stand in them, like the Salero. These illicit, secret mines were NOT owned openly, nor are they often admitted to though Nentvig mentions several like the mines of Arivaca and near Guevavi. The fact that you have legends of lost mines, which were found and you can stand in, should be very convincing evidence that other "legends" of lost mines which have not yet been found, are true. ...

Yes, we have legends, self-serving or not on the part of the natives. What we don't have is a roster of the major Jesuit mines of TH lore and their locations - information that ought to be readily available from the Spanish authorities, if such mines existed. Remember, we're talking about the North American allegations, not similar allegations originating in Mexico, South America, the Philippines or anywhere else.

I'm sorry, Oro, but evidence of the few modest Arizona workings you've mentioned is in no way convincing evidence supporting the 'legendary workings'. This is verry fuzzy logic. You've found the modest workings - where are the majors?

(Cactusjumper): ... Then you will remain locked in your position forever, for it is extremely unlikely that any Jesuit authority is ever going to admit "guilt" by positively identifying any treasure recovered, nor is it likely that any one who finds such a treasure, is going to send it off to some academics to study. That does not speak well of you amigo, to insist on a nearly impossible type of evidence before you would re-consider your position. ...

I can't speak for Joe, but when such a treasure is located, then we'll have something real to chew on. You are conveniently assuming that a discovery will not come to light, when you should be hoping that it would to prove your argument. You're obviously a true believer of these legends and you're trying to convince the rest of us. I personally would love to drink the Kool-Aid, but not yet.

... The rich silver mines are but ONE aspect of the massive wealth being accumulated by the Jesuits, and remember this letter to Pope Innocent XI was written in the mid-1600s, the Jesuits remained operating and accumulating wealth in Mexico for another century! ...

Maybe so, but stay on track Oro. It's North America that we American TH fans care about, not Mexico.

 

[Springfield]

Sorry but I fail to see what you mean by 'thorough' research. Exactly what 'thorough' research has Joe done?

Hmm. Well, 5,000 posts on this forum, many thousands on other forums - most with straightforward, informative opinions and cited back-up for those stances. I've never met Joe, and he has his supporters and detractors, but I think most will agree he has more than an acceptable level of integrity and honesty. Do I agree with all he says? No, but that usually boils down to a difference of opinion, not intentional guile on his part. Bottom line: he has no obligation to prove to you or anyone else how much time and care he has applied to the topic. Your approach seems to favor an ad hominem bias against him, which generally doesn't advance the debate.

 

[FEMF]

Hola amigos,
Springfield wrote



Considering that our debate more closely resembles a courtroom battle, this would be the normal and correct approach, for each side of the debate (guilty vs innocent) to present the case for their respective sides, and against their opponent's. It is not a scientific exam of a new species of amoeba, though our discussion often delves into minutea.


Springfield also wrote



I must respectfully disagree - the Catholic study of the Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767, conclusively proves the Order owned and operated MINES. That is a key prerequisite to establish that the product of said mines, precious metals, would and must exist, yet such prodcuts have very largely never been accounted for. Considering that the Jesuit apologist position in modern times has denied ANY and ALL mining activities, having used the Indians as slaves, of ever having accumulated treasures, all of which positions are provably false, and contradicted by older reference sources, any prudent man must see that the Jesuits indeed owned precious metal mines and operated them, some openly and legally and yet very quietly. When their mining activities were brought to light, by other Catholic religious authorities, the Order violently opposed that authority (Palafox). More on this in a moment.


Springfield also wrote



Joe's former or current view on the topic really have no bearing on the question. His former view appears to have been focused on Jesuit treasure in the Superstitions, for which there is virtually no evidence to support, at least not that I am aware of. A man of reason always holds his opinions open to revision when new evidence appears. I do not know the generation of Joe's view, however it would be very easy to go from believing the treasure stories in circulation, to total disbelief by then reading such authorities as Polzer and Bolton, especially since the whole subject of whether the Jesuits had mines and treasures has not been a topic of interest to non-partisan historians. This progression of opinion would be logical also by a look at the Peralta stones, which so many believe to be Jesuit, and yet there is nothing to tie them to the Jesuits specifically other than quasi-Catholic symbols and a leap of logic. I too have had a complete change of view on this topic, for I once thought ALL lost treasures/mines were so much fantasy.


As an aside here but to address the prudent man question, there should not be any evidence that the Jesuits had mines, nor were wealthy, if we are to believe they did not have mines nor wealth. Yet we have a record of mines owned openly, Polzer admits to priests caught mining, West found a similar case in which the mines were claimed to be owned by the college of Matape, the Pious Fund for California owned mines, the college of Queretaro's main source of income and support were the mines owned by the college. All these mines were owned openly, yet our Jesuit apologists and many historians are silent about them! Are we to believe Polzer then or Bolton, both of whom held that the Jesuits never had any mines?


Further, we have legends of lost mines which, according to the Indians whom passed the stories to earlier treasure hunters, were worked by the padres using the Indians as labor, and which were deliberately hidden on their departure. Some of these legendary mines have been found, and you can stand in them, like the Salero. These illicit, secret mines were NOT owned openly, nor are they often admitted to though Nentvig mentions several like the mines of Arivaca and near Guevavi. The fact that you have legends of lost mines, which were found and you can stand in, should be very convincing evidence that other "legends" of lost mines which have not yet been found, are true.

Cactusjumper wrote



I put that statement in BOLD typeface to emphasize the direct evidence that our Jesuit padres did practice secrecy in their communications. There are several similar, if briefer statements in Segesser's letters, for he knew that his mail was being opened and read by others. So I must respectfully disagree, that this proof of the practice of keeping communications secret, which extends beyond just mining, is evidence that the Jesuit records must be viewed with a suspicious eye.


Cactusjumper wrote



Then you will remain locked in your position forever, for it is extremely unlikely that any Jesuit authority is ever going to admit "guilt" by positively identifying any treasure recovered, nor is it likely that any one who finds such a treasure, is going to send it off to some academics to study. That does not speak well of you amigo, to insist on a nearly impossible type of evidence before you would re-consider your position.


Frankly I do not understand this immovable position held by you, and some others here (including a few whom do not post but we have communicated by PM) which seems to demand even more than what already exists. We have turned up documentation of Jesuit owned and operated precious metal mines, we have cases of once-legendary lost mines which have been found and you can stand in, we have some impressive treasures witnessed by more than one authority as at San Xavier del Bac, which has vanished into the air, we have cases of the Jesuits themselves reporting that they hid the "ornaments of the church" during times of crisis, we have the Spanish authorities efforts to turn up the wealth they knew the Jesuits had accumulated which were largely a failure (and little wonder that the Jesuits witnessing the rather inept search methods, were laughing up their sleeves) we now even have a Jesuit complaining that he cannot work the silver and gold mines in safety, making it hard to come up with money!


This post is already very long but I have to add this.


As mentioned above, bishop Palafox found a state of affairs in Mexico that shocked him so badly that he was compelled to write to the Pope about it. Does he complain about the Jesuits having girlfriends or other shocking abuse of their position? NO - in fact here is that letter (again) as I am too lazy to go hunt up the old post where it was, and to save our readers whom have not read it from the same.





The rich silver mines are but ONE aspect of the massive wealth being accumulated by the Jesuits, and remember this letter to Pope Innocent XI was written in the mid-1600s, the Jesuits remained operating and accumulating wealth in Mexico for another century!

This massive wealth Palafox saw as a threat to the very existence of Mexico, which indeed it was! The English visited Jesuit Baja California and published the massive wealth seen there. Yet even though it was known that the Jesuits were indeed massively wealthy, very little of that wealth was found by the Spanish authorities, as indeed very few of their mines were found! A simile would be if you saw me holding a bucket of gold, know for a fact that I then passed away without having sold, spent or given it away nor of traveling, you would know that bucket of gold exists and is hidden.


We are hampered by not being the first treasure hunters to investigate this matter, for the earlier fellows had access to any and all documents that were still held by the various Jesuit missions and visitas. These fellows removed what ever they wished. By at least one account, they found documentary evidence of over 200 Jesuit mines in what is today Arizona, though we have not one document of that evidence. These mines are not mentioned by the Jesuit apologists nor historians, (other than Nentvig's passing mention) though even father Segesser stated that he was in the silver mountains, where there was as much lead as silver, that he could not work the gold and silver mines do to the dangers from hostile Indians. Does father Polzer admit that San Xavier del Bac mission owned mines? Hardly! Yet father Kino himself was shown a piece of pretty green horn silver on his very first visit there, which came from the mine which later became known as la Esmerelda for the pretty green ore. Those mines of which the early treasure hunters claimed to have found documentation of, were not giant Anaconda type mines by the way, which point I would not raise except that some people are so black and white, all or nothing in their views; yet though these mines are almost certainly small by modern American standards, they are certainly more than prospects, and are exactly the sort of mines which would be suitable for the typical Mom-n-Pop small modern operation to exploit.


Cactusjumper also wrote



Thanks for the suggestion, however it is not "The" point that makes or breaks the case for me. Chisels or crowbars are both useful MINING TOOLS. If it is of tantamount importance to you, then by all means please do pursue it. However the other statements in Segesser's letters, including his complaint about not being able to work the gold and silver mines so money is hard earned, I would think to be a far more weighty piece of evidence. Word games will not absolve the Jesuits amigo.


Also, I do not think those "Kino" bars are solid proof of Jesuit mining. Especially not when you can literally stand in mines they operated in Arizona and Sonora. The bars look to be pious frauds to me, however were I to find a stash of several thousand of such bars, I would not turn my nose up at them either! But considering that the king of Spain had ordered ALL religious orders to stop mining, and the mining did not stop, plus the Jesuit general had repeatedly ordered his missionaries not to be involved in commerce while they proceeded to do so very energetically, it would be rather odd to put Kino or any other Jesuit name directly on precious metal bars which would be evidence of criminal activity. Besides, the mines belong to the various mission churches and colleges, not to individual Jesuits in most cases.


One last thing here (to Joe) but the fact that a person "likes" a post of my own, has little bearing on anything. I often click on the "like" for a post that is well done, or well written, even if I completely disagree with the proposition it states. I am pretty sure that many others do the same. I do not know the proposition Deducer is attempting to prove, nor am I trying to support or disprove his statements and/or evidence. Your rather offensive statement however Joe, is a surprise and hardly conducive to constructive debate.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Hello Roy
I've stopped trying to convince people, but Thank You, for your research, ROY! and for a treasure hunter, your all Right in my Book. Ha, Ha. LOL all the way, Mike too.
FEMF

 

[jeff of pa]

You's All can start over from this point & Leave out the Personal attacks on each other .

Sorry if I removed a Post in between that was not part of the attacks but to keep the Flow Even

this is how it BE

 

[releventchair]

Mexico is in North America,still. Re titling o.p. to ask for proof of hidden treasure in "North" America, how many miles farther north you talking from what eras boundaries when related activities mission related could have been in any form from raw ore to finished items used in a church or visiting the sick? Treasure definition and proving all know resources used in services is accounted for still not a guarantee there was no raw silver or gold possessed and service related recovery has occurred.Locate the missions ghosts in Canada (yes,"North" America). Those where martyrs did not return the cherished items used during mass. Those expelled arriving in Quebec empty handed also. Where did all the pretty shiny go?



Rosary Workshop > CRX.96 - JESUIT 1700 or (pre 1700s ?) - Europe / - (2.75 in.)

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


"After this accounting, which adequately explains how little was left over, namely nothing at all, would I be likely to ask for alms and a considerable contribution? Yes."


I have left some room here for further debate.

I fail to see this statement as Segesser directly asking his relatives for money. As it comes from his letter telling of the costs involved only in GETTING TO his mission assigned (San Xavier del Bac) and not the maintaining of said mission, not sure it would count; many a soldier has asked family for extra money to get home on leave in modern times, which is above and beyond ordinary expenses. By the way, you did not cite the exact location of that extract, though I know where it is.


Springfield wrote

"This debate (the existence of significant hidden treasures resulting from large-scale Jesuit mining in North America)..." [My quote, and as far as I'm concerned, the premise of this thread and debate.]


Except for the pattern established, what happened in Mexico does nothing to provide specific evidence north of the border. The spirit of this thread is to discuss the so-called 'industrial-scale' mining in North America and the 'massive precious metals caches' left behind by the Jesuits following their expulsion. We have already conceded the likelihood of their modest workings and allegations regarding church paraphernalia caches. Please - stay within the parameters.

Actually the premise of the thread simply states, Jesuit Treasures, Are They Real? Nothing in this title nor the opening posts, specifies that it is to be "industrial scale". Further, there is nothing to define it as limited to ABOVE the US/Mexico border, and this makes perfect sense as the Jesuit operations were literally world-wide, as has been pointed out previously, in particular the operations in the Philippines were directly linked to those in Mexico, the Baja operations were directly supported by properties held across the main of Mexico, and further, the Mexico border included California, Nevada, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas, extending into a part of Wyoming in fact, at the time and up to the expulsion of the Jesuits, at which point further mines and or treasures would not be developed.

What exactly constitutes "industrial scale"? Who defined the Jesuit operations as having to be on that scale, or are hardly worthy of discussion, practically negligable, etc? The "legends" so readily dismissed by skeptics, do not tell of "industrial scale" mining. For that matter, most of the American mines in the southwest, would hardly qualify as industrial scale, and yet can be very rich.


Springfield wrote

Yes, we have legends, self-serving or not on the part of the natives. What we don't have is a roster of the major Jesuit mines of TH lore and their locations - information that ought to be readily available from the Spanish authorities, if such mines existed.

A Spanish roster of illegal, secretly operated mines? This is fuzzy logic on your part amigo. Besides, earlier treasure hunters stated that they found that very type of documents in Guevavi and Bac, and they were free to remove all such documents, leaving only the type that remain in archives today which have no treasure relation, understandable as the early treasure hunters had no interest in marriage bans or baptisms.


Springfield also wrote

I'm sorry, Oro, but evidence of the few modest Arizona workings you've mentioned is in no way convincing evidence supporting the 'legendary workings'. This is verry fuzzy logic. You've found the modest workings - where are the majors?

I don't know where exactly, you get the notion that mines operated by Jesuits would be "major" or industrial scale. They had only the most primitive methods and tools available, plus free labor. How "industrial" of an operation would then be possible, under those limitations? Perhaps if you were to re-read those "legends" you might find where these legends tell of "industrial scale" type mining operations and point it out for me? I would like to read those stories which tell of that "industrial" level of mining activity, thank you in advance.


The closest to "industrial scale" Jesuit mining which I know of, is the story of Tayopa, which includes seventeen (or 18, by one version) mines, all located in one rather limited area. These are very possibly the silver mines referred to by Palafox, and even so, (no offense to our amigo Don Jose) these operations would still be quite modest if compared to some of the giant Spanish operations or modern American mines. Tayopa is almost unique however in being not only a group of mines located in one geographically small location but includes a Real, mission church and village ruins.


Springfield also wrote

I can't speak for Joe, but when such a treasure is located, then we'll have something real to chew on. You are conveniently assuming that a discovery will not come to light, when you should be hoping that it would to prove your argument. You're obviously a true believer of these legends and you're trying to convince the rest of us. I personally would love to drink the Kool-Aid, but not yet.

Ah, Kool-Aid, the drink that refreshes without being gassy! I am quite confident that no one is going to find the largest cache associated with the Jesuits within Arizona, (the treasure stored in the Virgin de Guadeloupe mine) for there is something wrong in the document that describes its location which no one appears to have caught, so all continue to search the wrong area. However even were it found today, considering the reactions so far to each example cited, I doubt it would make the slightest of difference for your, or Cactusjumper's, as well as other skeptics opinions, expecting and demanding (apparently) to see a stash of silver and gold that the Jesuits themselves will sign sworn affidavits that indeed they produced them.


Example, the cache of treasure discovered in Brazil, posted some time ago, and worth millions even in that day when discovered. The legal ownership became quite the topic of debate at that time. Do you, or Joe, now admit, that the Jesuits operating in Brazil, must in truth have been accumulating and hiding treasures, based on the discovery of a massive example there, which was well hidden? NO.


Example two, in searching the Jesuit missions of Baja, small amounts of gold were found hidden. Even so, this small cache would amount to a nice sum for an individual today. The amount of funds discovered by the Spanish authorities on the expulsion also amounts to no inconsiderable sum - this for the very poorest of all Jesuit provinces. Do you or Joe, now admit that the Jesuits operating in Baja, were indeed accumulating treasures? No. A side note here but I just found a report of the discovery of a single gold bar in a Jesuit mission, a couple of years after the expulsion, which I am sure woudl be dismissed as negligable and since it was more than one year after expulsion, then must not be Jesuit in origins although the Spanish authorities at the time certified it as such.


Example three; which I will post here as it has not been posted previously:

In 1767 the Jesuits by a decree of his Most Catholic Majesty were on account of their iniquitous practices ignomi nioualy expelled from Spain and the whole of their property including goods chattels and estates confiscated On this occasion in the College of Barcelona alone were found riches to the amount of twelve millions of crowns It consisted of several tons of gold and silver a large quantity of gold dust emeralds and diamonds crowns of gold ornamented witli emeralds and rubies some bales of cocoa and some rich merchandise from the East Indies. So much for the vow of perpetual poverty!
Here ia a case taken from the Annual Register for the 1759 which may serve as a specimen Naples, May 28 Last week the apartment of the late Father Pepe the Jesuit for whose pulpit and confession box the people made great scrambling from a notion of his great sanctity was opened in the presence of our cardinal archbishop and one of the king's ministers There were found in it 600 ounces of gold in specie bills amounting to 56 000 ducats 1000 pounds of wax I0 copper vessels full of Dutch tobacco 3 gold repeating watches 4 snuff boxes made of rare shells 200 silk handkerchiefs and a capital of 300,000 ducats. Before his death he made a present to Jesus Church of a piece of velvet hangings laced with gold a large statue of the immaculate conception of massy silver and a fine pyramid to be erected in the front of the church. So much again for the vow of perpetual poverty!

<The Jesuits: their Origin and Order, Morality and Practices, Suppression and Restoration, Alexander Duff, Johnstone and Hunter, Edinburgh, 1852 pp 19>


Would it make any difference, to keep listing rosters of the discoveries of wealth on the expulsions and dissolution of the Jesuit Order? It has not so far, for even though these amount to quite sizable fortunes, which revenues had to come from the Jesuit operations largely, this falls short of the "industrial" scale you set. Clearly not, for unless a vault filled with treasure marked as owned by the Jesuits and certified by them as authentic, you and other skeptics remain 'not ready to drink the Kool-Aid'.

As far as I know, no one has ever attempted to compile the total of the wealth discovered from the Jesuit operations, however from what I have seen it would be very considerable. That one example of ONE college holdings is nearly equal to the national budget of some countries of the time, yet this does not reach "industrial" level treasure. By that standard of measure, the treasure of Norway or Hungary circa 1760, would not be worth looking for, had they been hidden and then lost.


Can you understand why I get frustrated in attempting to convince you (and Joe as well)? You seem to expect and demand proof at exaggerated levels, which does not exist, nor is likely to be discovered any time soon. Your term of "modest" mines and treasures, implies that a single treasure valued at a half million dollars, is hardly worthy of notice, much less the effort and time to find it. (the well known treasure of Bac, which even the Indians whom hid it, seem to have forgotten the location) I have read many treasure "legends" of the Jesuits, and yet do not recall any that reach those "industrial" levels you seem to be interpreting them as, the closest being Tayopa, which even so hardly compares to the mines of Potosi which I think is the level of "industrial" activity you keep thinking the legends of Jesuit mines must be.


Springfield also wrote

Maybe so, but stay on track Oro. It's North America that we American TH fans care about, not Mexico.

I see that Relevantchair has already answered this, but really it is not accurate to try to delineate the Jesuit operations as single, separate entities, and as pointed out, Mexico at the time included much of the American southwest. The thread topic does not delineate the subject as limited to only the operations within the modern US borders, and besides, all operations elsewhere are submitted as evidence of Jesuit character and patterns of behavior even when located far away from our southwest. Also, this forum is world wide not just covering North America, it is likely that there are treasure hunters in the Philippines, Brazil, Argentina, Chile etc whom are likewise interested in Jesuit treasures and mines.


My apologies to Joe, Springfield and anyone else offended by anything I posted, and to Jeff for having added to the hostilities instead of the opposite. Who knows, maybe some day I will "grow up" and drink Jesuit father Polzer's Kool-Aid, and deny there ever were any such things as Jesuit treasures.


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[FEMF]

You's All can start over from this point & Leave out the Personal attacks on each other .

Sorry if I removed a Post in between that was not part of the attacks but to keep the Flow Even

this is how it BE

O.K. Jeff, That be as it BE, I'm 86-ing you!
FEMF

 

[jeff of pa]

O.K. Jeff, That be as it BE, I'm 86-ing you!
FEMF

HaHa Yes I was able to Undelete that one FEMF

 

[FEMF]

HaHa Yes I was able to Undelete that one FEMF

Thank You!
FEMF

 

[blazintowers]

WOW! what a great informative thread, I have to thank everyone for their contributions... I have been reading, re-reading and following along for a very long time. But as the once Great Rodney King once said "Can't we all just get along?" Well, maybe not! Both sides make great arguments, but as for one standing on middle ground, I am leaning towards Oro's belief, just too many facts pointing towards the Jesuits as having wealth. It's easy to SEE when you open YOUR eyes. Who knows, maybe some of the Blind men are really Jesuits trying to still deceive to this day? Most people believe IN GOD yet most have never seen him?

 

[deducer]

Here is a copy of the church brochure of the St. Francis Xavier Parish which describes the 3rd statue as being that of Serra:

 

[Springfield]

... I don't know where exactly, you get the notion that mines operated by Jesuits would be "major" or industrial scale. They had only the most primitive methods and tools available, plus free labor. How "industrial" of an operation would then be possible, under those limitations? Perhaps if you were to re-read those "legends" you might find where these legends tell of "industrial scale" type mining operations and point it out for me? I would like to read those stories which tell of that "industrial" level of mining activity, thank you in advance. ...

Fair enough. When it comes down to it, Oro, you and I are not really that far apart on this topic - it's a matter of scale, and where reality ends and fantasy begins. Below are examples of some well-known Jesuit 'lost mine/hidden treasure' tales from various sources. God knows how many others have been floating around, but these are fairly typical of the 'Jesuit genre', I believe. Keep in mind, my argument all along has been merely that the Jesuit mining and stashing activities in today's Arizona has been wildly exaggerated, leading to some fundamental misconceptions among treasure hunters. I willingly admit, based on the SJ's proven bad behavior worldwide, that they certainly took every advantage they could in Arizona in the illegal mining/slaving realm - I just don't see that the reality of their operations match the legends surrounding them. I really am not interested in what they did in South America, Mexico, or the Pacific Islands. I'll concede whatever you need in these locations - I just don't care. I care about the American Southwest, where I live and where my treasure-related interests are. I suspect a few others may feel the same way.


Mine With The Iron Door (Escalante Mine) Santa Catalina Mountains, Arizona [ "Lost Mines of Arizona and Sonora" Arizona Silver Belt, Globe City, Arizona, December 3, 1892]
"A few years later, while hunting for this relic of the past, the editor discovered in one of the box-canyon cliffs an old weather worn iron door leading to an ancient Jesuit mine, the seclusion of which was so perfect that it was not necessary to be made a matter of record.


Lately a new and important discovery has been made, being the finding of a flight of stone step leading down into a veritable cryptogram of working, which show ruby and native silver in vast extent, sparkling with gold. And the most wonderful thing of all, which the posted few have been trying to keep quiet, is that the old iron door has been found to be another opening to this treasure vault, which is now known to lie immediately beneath the "lost pueblo" of the first find."


La Purismo Concepción [Desert Magazine, November 1950]
"At the mine there is a tunnel 300 varas (835 feet) long that runs to the north. About 200 varas from the portal of this tunnel a crosscut 100 varas long leads from the main tunnel to the west. The ore in the face of this crosscut is yellow and one a half silver and one-fifth gold."

Virgin de Guadalupe [Desert Magazine, January 1941]
"The enclosure is 50 varas square covering up the treasure inside and outside the mine. There are 2050 mule loads of virgin silver and 905 loads of gold and silver. The total value amounts to $45,000,000 pesos."


Lost Opata Mine [Southwest Legends, January 11, 2013]
"According to the legend, a huge pile of silver from the Lost Opata Mine remains buried and is guarded by the skeletal remains of a Mayo Indian Princess. Both the silver and the princess lie hidden somewhere near the Tumacácori Mission, 45 miles outside of Tucson."

There are of course plenty more, but these are typical of the sensational treasure stories have filled the pulp publications for generations - repeated enough times to now be considered mostly factual by eager readers. Whether you would consider mining operations of these descriptions to be 'major' or 'industrial scale', I don't know. For me, I would think in their day, such workings would be highly notable and memorable to all who were aware of them. Likewise, caches of precious metals, such as described in the legends as coming from these mines, would obviously be 'major'. If these reports are accurate, then two important questions need to be answered by anyone who feels that actually searching for the caches would be worthwhile:

1) Mines this rich in an area with Spanish settlers and military present (such as the Santa Cruz Valley) could not be kept secret. If the mines existed, then why weren't they seized and worked by the Spanish following the Jesuits' expulsion in 1767? Your previous explanation that the Spanish military was incompetent may satisfy some and allow them to overlook the problem, but using your own Occam's Razor (the simplest option is often the best) tells me that the troops were there and they had to know about operating mines as rich as these were alleged to be. Of course, if the mines did not exist, or were modest in scale and not worth the problems associated with opening them back up after 1767, the question is moot.

2) If the rich caches were factual, why haven't the Jesuits recovered them? I've heard explanations ranging from 'the Jesuits don't know where the caches are', to 'the Jesuits don't want to expose their past misdeeds' and others. Really? The Jesuits are generally regarded as on the short list of the world's smartest and most capable people. It's awfully hard for me to swallow any explanation that these people 'lost' the caches, or are 'too ashamed' to recover them. It's a rationalization, IMO, that ignore's not only the capabilities of the SJ, but also Occam's most obvious options - the caches were already recovered by the SJ, or the caches, if they existed, were minor. So - the thread's topic: Are the Jesuit Treasures Real? Maybe in Bolivia and Mexico, but in Arizona, not as real as many would like to believe.

[It's my working model that the Jesuits's primo Arizona clandestine activities are not in the Santa Cruz Valley, but in central Arizona, where they are privy to a large Pre-Colombian valuable cache in the Salt/Gila Rivers vicinity. What the cache is and how the Jesuits are involved, I don't know.]

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

Mine With The Iron Door (Escalante Mine) Santa Catalina Mountains, Arizona [ "Lost Mines of <snip>


Lately a new and important discovery has been made, being the finding of a flight of stone step leading down into a veritable cryptogram of working, which show ruby and native silver in vast extent, sparkling with gold. And the most wonderful thing of all, which the posted few have been trying to keep quiet, is that the old iron door has been found to be another opening to this treasure vault, which is now known to lie immediately beneath the "lost pueblo" of the first find."

How large does this sound to you? "Vast extent" is a very subjective term, an exposed wall running 100 feet might be described that way, and yet would not reach "industrial scale" terms for some folks.

Springfield also wrote

La Purismo Concepción [Desert Magazine, November 1950]
"At the mine there is a tunnel 300 varas (835 feet) long that runs to the north. About 200 varas from the portal of this tunnel a crosscut 100 varas long leads from the main tunnel to the west. The ore in the face of this crosscut is yellow and one a half silver and one-fifth gold."

Compared to many mines, this is not that much workings. As you have previously pointed out, many American mines have literally miles of tunnels and shafts. This size mine working would be a good amount for having had to work it with the primitive methods and tools available at the time. The ore while rich, is nothing out of the range of reality.


Springfield also wrote

Virgin de Guadalupe [Desert Magazine, January 1941]
"The enclosure is 50 varas square covering up the treasure inside and outside the mine. There are 2050 mule loads of virgin silver and 905 loads of gold and silver. The total value amounts to $45,000,000 pesos."

This "enclosure" is less than an acre in size; the amount of precious metals would not load a single Spanish galleon fully. It is one of the largest such Jesuit treasures and yet does not compare with the amounts of gold and silver being mined and shipped by the Spanish from Mexico proper and Peru for comparison. I have seen several interpretations of how much this amounts to, but is in the range of 15 tons of precious metals (roughly) which would make a man very wealthy indeed, BUT - how much silver was cargo on the Atocha?

Thank you for pointing up some examples, but clearly a part of the problem is in the interpretation of the person reading the stories. To some, it is not SO outlandish, while to others this sounds like something which would not and could not be hidden for any period of time. More on this in a moment.


Springfield also wrote

There are of course plenty more, but these are typical of the sensational treasure stories have filled the pulp publications for generations - repeated enough times to now be considered mostly factual by eager readers. Whether you would consider mining operations of these descriptions to be 'major' or 'industrial scale', I don't know. For me, I would think in their day, such workings would be highly notable and memorable to all who were aware of them. Likewise, caches of precious metals, such as described in the legends as coming from these mines, would obviously be 'major'. If these reports are accurate, then two important questions need to be answered by anyone who feels that actually searching for the caches would be worthwhile:


1) Mines this rich in an area with Spanish settlers and military present (such as the Santa Cruz Valley) could not be kept secret. If the mines existed, then why weren't they seized and worked by the Spanish following the Jesuits' expulsion in 1767? Your previous explanation that the Spanish military was incompetent may satisfy some and allow them to overlook the problem, but using your own Occam's Razor (the simplest option is often the best) tells me that the troops were there and they had to know about operating mines as rich as these were alleged to be. Of course, if the mines did not exist, or were modest in scale and not worth the problems associated with opening them back up after 1767, the question is moot.


2) If the rich caches were factual, why haven't the Jesuits recovered them? I've heard explanations ranging from 'the Jesuits don't know where the caches are', to 'the Jesuits don't want to expose their past misdeeds' and others. Really? The Jesuits are generally regarded as on the short list of the world's smartest and most capable people. It's awfully hard for me to swallow any explanation that these people 'lost' the caches, or are 'too ashamed' to recover them. It's a rationalization, IMO, that ignore's not only the capabilities of the SJ, but also Occam's most obvious options - the caches were already recovered by the SJ, or the caches, if they existed, were minor. So - the thread's topic: Are the Jesuit Treasures Real? Maybe in Bolivia and Mexico, but in Arizona, not as real as many would like to believe.

Very sound reasoning - however it is proceeding from several assumptions which may not be correct. For one, how many Spanish settlers do you think were living in Pimeria Alta, circa 1750? According to the sources I have seen, the colonists are VERY few in number, and "Spanish" perhaps in name only. The big majority of the population was Indian, not Spanish. Secondly the Spanish military was not tasked with keeping track of what ever commercial activities the Jesuits were doing, which perhaps they ought to have been. They were stationed well south at Fronteras in the time of Kino <late 1690s> and not until after the Pima rebellion was Tubac presidio founded (in 1752, if memory serves) and this is where most of the Spanish residents/colonists puddled up. Not ranging over the mountains where they could fall prey to hostile Indians.


Next point - the Spanish authorities certainly gave all the appearances that they DID know of the Jesuits accumulating wealth, though the locations of the MINES were hardly considered important, they wanted the bullion, hence their efforts to find the riches they knew existed and yet were almost completely disappointed in finding. (Portales issued a list of the gold and silver bullion discovered in Jesuit Baja, which as was pointed out in the cedula, the padres were accumulating while their Indians went barefoot and naked) If the Spanish authorities were totally ignorant of the Jesuits accumulating treasures, why then would they have bothered to spend so much energy searching for it, and even in the order expelling them, specified that they (padres) would not be allowed to remove anything but the barest necessities? Point being that I do not believe the Spanish authorities nor civilians were much concerned about finding the mines, only the treasures they produced.


Plus, some Spanish civilians certainly did hear of, and proceeded to search for the lost Jesuit mines, as was posted some time ago about an expedition in (I think) 1817 or so to find mines in Arizona which was largely unsuccessful. Spaniards certainly went to the mines they knew of in Baja and found them of such poor quality that they were hardly worth working, yet they were being worked while the Jesuits were the rules of Baja, and the only (obvious) explanation was that the labor was free, while a Spaniard would have labor costs.

Your negative views of the way these stories have been passed down I can not address; one might take such a view of any stories of any historical events, other than actual history books and even there, some literary license has ventured into the telling. People can and do exaggerate things of course, and sometimes this is done innocently, some folks cannot help but exaggerate things.

Springfield also wrote

[It's my working model that the Jesuits's primo Arizona clandestine activities are not in the Santa Cruz Valley, but in central Arizona, where they are privy to a large Pre-Colombian valuable cache in the Salt/Gila Rivers vicinity. What the cache is and how the Jesuits are involved, I don't know.]

That is quite an interesting model, and one might wonder if this may not be one of the real reasons why the Franciscan padres who replaced the Jesuits, seemed to have made energetic attempts at explorations. Actually I am always puzzled that so few treasure hunters have any interest in the Franciscans, when there is every reason to believe they too had mines and treasures, and they were also booted though much later and with more time to conceal anything desired. Padres like Font, Esperanza, Garces etc were ranging much farther afield than the Jesuits did. I would like to hear more of your working model, if you would not mind going into a bit more detail, and of course I do not wish to see any info that might compromise your own work in any way.


Deducer wrote

Here is a copy of the church brochure of the St. Francis Xavier Parish which describes the 3rd statue as being that of Serra:

Thank you for posting the picture and description. I have not addressed your contention about the statue previously as I do not know the details, but on doing a little checking it does appear that statue now claimed to be Serra, a Franciscan, was formerly not considered Serra but Rojas or Roxas. It is odd that they would depict Serra a Fransican, standing beneath a Jesuit and next to a Jesuit, beneath the Jesuit coat of arms after all. If you have more info and can pinpoint when this identification was changed, I would like to see it.


A side point here Deducer, but as you pointed out, this statue is remarkably not like other statues of father Serra; he is usually depicted holding a tall cross or staff, and always with the large cowl neck habit, not like the one in your photo of that statue in the facade. It is also notable that one of the symbols of St Francis Xavier (a prominent Jesuit) is a bell. If you have any other photos of that facade, so that we might study the statue in question more closely, I would very much appreciate it.


Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS one last thing here but on the abilities of the Spanish military stationed on the frontier areas - I do consider them to have been more often than not, led by rather incompetent leaders, which does not mean the soldiers there not courageous nor incapable as soldiers. The record of the Spanish military in Arizona/Sonora is a mix of victories which never established peace for long, and defeats, some of which were considered shameful at the time. They were outnumbered most of the time, and were assigned to protect vast areas, which by comparison to the American efforts later, are almost pitifully small in numbers not to mention weaponry. A Spanish trooper in leather armor, armed with a lance, was hardly superior to an Apache or Seri warrior armed with similar weaponry and greater numbers. It would have taken great courage to face the dangers those Spanish soldiers did in that day. And some of the Spanish commanders, like Anza, were of a very good competency, though these types of leaders seem to have been in the minority most of the time.