Legend vs Realitiy

[Blindbowman]

I think I get the idea of what happened .. they go to get this city of gold and ram sack it .and no gold .. then everyone try's to rename it and forget about and not bring it up ,... sore topic ...lol I guess this why it had 3 or 4 different names ... what's funny is the fact it is the city of gold .. it would bring millions into Az ....as a Zuni site .. this amazing and no one gets it ...lol

 

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[Blindbowman]

I am starting to fit some of the puzzle together . Montezuma and the Aztec said the site was ancient even in their time . that is good logic if the site was a Zuni site ,so somewhere hidden at this site is Chicomoztoc so two of the tribes in the cave in the Aztec codex are most likely Aztec and Zuni ...I wonder if they had a way into that crystal cave .. and I have not found it yet .. I know where it is . but is there a way in ...? I know where to look for it ...I get it now ,that's why .. ok that is ok I know where that is ...that's what the drawings on the cliff were ...Zuni art work ...

 

[Blindbowman]

I got a idea how the Apache wanted this to play out ... see the Zuni had a secret cave there and the Peralta made a tunnel near by . the Apache catch the Jesuit sleeping on the job and hold them and let little groups go thinking they were free and when they got so far away they killed them off so they were not near the Zuni site , that's what those small groups of skeletons were that they kept finding out in the desert , well played but not a great idea ...how sweet is that , they killed off the Jesuit and the Spanish and they are still killing the whites ... I am not there for the gold or the treasure ..this going to get real interesting fast !

 

[Blindbowman]

see years ago I found some Zuni art work on a cliff and I believed the Apache had copied it from some where else but now I see it is Zuni art drawings Pictographs and Petroglyphs...cave art ...that's been there for a very long time ...the Apache destroyed most of it trying to hide the treasure and ore in the tunnel ...they destroyed their own past for greed ....

 

[Real of Tayopa]

What were the original specs tor the 7 cities of Cibola

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

You can get a Brunton for around $12 here is one example (not pushing Cabela's)
https://www.cabelas.com/product/Bru...VlBx9Ch3WiQr8EAQYASABEgI64_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Everyone has their own physical limitations, sometimes it just takes more 'engineerin' to get the job done - if you are able to hike in rough country you should be able to handle the Superstition mountains.

While you are researching the history of Missouri don't overlook the French presence. It was a French Jesuit that first trod the land there and they were actively searching for a silver mine at that time. The French Jesuit 'Relations' are available online too (free) it is a fascinating history.

Please do continue;

You and Cyzak seem to be in agreement on these Bruntons- military issue would suit me for now.
A few days ago, for some reason I was reading about Jean de Brébeuf and New France. He met a horrible fate at the hands of the Iroquois.
I've had this impression the Jesuits worked with the Spanish as long as it aligned with their goals. Found some things to look at in regard to Missouri.
I'm sure some of you heard of this man Don Shade, maybe read his book, and even some of you might have met him.

https://superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com/2018/08/a-man-and-his-dream.html?m=1

The Zuni seem to currently on a reservation. Wonder if they have any thoughts on the cities of gold. If a priest said he saw a golden village, I expect he did. Or believed he did.

 

[cyzak]

You and Cyzak seem to be in agreement on these Bruntons- military issue would suit me for now.
A few days ago, for some reason I was reading about Jean de Brébeuf and New France. He met a horrible fate at the hands of the Iroquois.
I've had this impression the Jesuits worked with the Spanish as long as it aligned with their goals. Found some things to look at in regard to Missouri.
I'm sure some of you heard of this man Don Shade, maybe read his book, and even some of you might have met him.

https://superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com/2018/08/a-man-and-his-dream.html?m=1

The Zuni seem to currently on a reservation. Wonder if they have any thoughts on the cities of gold. If a priest said he saw a golden village, I expect he did. Or believed he did.

I got mine at a yard sale back in the day the ole boy was a back packer and had tons of stuff think I got it for under 20 bucks just keep your eyes open you will come across one you do not need to spend a lot of money.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

That's the way to go,Cyzak. Yard sales, flea markets, young folks getting rid of "junk".

 

[Blindbowman]

that would depend on what account you start with .. some latter books say all put one city was found others say none were found .. its crazy to think in this day and age that they have not been found but after see seeing this city that is in fact a smaller zuni village destroyed for nothing more then greed .. it makes you wonder if the Apache were not protecting their own past when in reality its clear they were protecting their own interest ...its funny there is no real evidence that any of the 7 city were real till now with this find I can prove there was a real site ..for Cibola ... maybe this is the starting point to find the other 6 cities ,I did not know there was even one city so . I had no idea they were real till now .. maybe that's why the stones have the Latin heart ... but as you see I was under the theory that Apache were trying to protect their secret place and that's not the case at all ...they may feel the Zuni are part of their past as well '' but this is why I took so many photo of a large area ...I had focused on a site north of whiskey springs ..but it still needs to be photographed in detail ...in all reality it makes you wonder if the other 7 cities were not made up to take the focus off Cibola after the failure to find any real gold ...and you got wonder how the bell date of 1603 fits the site ...if that smaller bell dose go to the Jesuit church ...they say they razed the whole village in 1646 .so the church was build some time after 1541 and was there before 1603 why make a bell for a church that don't exist yet ,the church had to be already there ...so some where at this site is that stone box of jewels ...so if this is true :Ever since Fransisco Vasquez de Coronado wrote the Spanish Viceroy Mendoza in 1538: "the natives of Topira (the name given to Tayopa in the early annals) wear gold and emeralds and other precious stones... this village was renamed Topira some time before 1603 : check this out I am correct :https://www.geographicus.com/P/AntiqueMap/NoviOrbisAmerica-quad-1600 look at this part :In the southwest several of the supposed cities of gold are noted, among the Ciboa (Ciuola, really Zuni) and Azatlan (Ascatlan, legendary homeland of the Aztec peoples prior to their migration to the Valley of Mexico). Some believe that the second peninsula just to the west of Florida may represent an early attempt to map the protrusion of the Mississippi River delta.
now look at this map :the word Ciuola is on the map that is really Cibola ...I am correct we have locate Cibola !

 

[Blindbowman]

this is amazing, a map error has caused a historical site to be lost for almost 500 years .. this is crazy ...

 

[Blindbowman]

see how the word Ciuola is over the church . that's because that Church dose not belong with the word Ciuola . the word is written to the left of the objective ,the word Ciuola is left of the mountain range . and that mountain range is the superstitions .. IMHO they change the spelling to code some words on the map to keep them hidden . the fact is this located is the real Cibola .. .

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

I found this.

The Mysterious Journey of Friar Marcos de Niza | Planetary Science Institute

What are these bells you mention, Bowman? Were they made of gold, and where were they cast?
I'm gonna have to start taking notes by hand
So you have been to this site. At the moment I am thinking there were not seven cities, but possibly one.
Historians seem to be torn about this Friar. I can't think he outright lied. Maybe he could rationalize a falsehood for the greater good, in his mind anyway. But I am not privy to his thoughts.

 

[Blindbowman]

I found this.

The Mysterious Journey of Friar Marcos de Niza | Planetary Science Institute

What are these bells you mention, Bowman? Were they made of gold, and where were they cast?
I'm gonna have to start taking notes by hand
So you have been to this site. At the moment I am thinking there were not seven cities, but possibly one.
Historians seem to be torn about this Friar. I can't think he outright lied. Maybe he could rationalize a falsehood for the greater good, in his mind anyway. But I am not privy to his thoughts.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/tayopa/3411-treasures-tayopa.html

 

[Blindbowman]

Four bells inscribed TAYOPA. ?Weight 727 lbs.

One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 285 lbs.

One bell inscribed PIEDAD. ?Weight 125 ?lbs.

These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Rverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.

 

[Al D]

I found this.

The Mysterious Journey of Friar Marcos de Niza | Planetary Science Institute

What are these bells you mention, Bowman? Were they made of gold, and where were they cast?
I'm gonna have to start taking notes by hand
So you have been to this site. At the moment I am thinking there were not seven cities, but possibly one.
Historians seem to be torn about this Friar. I can't think he outright lied. Maybe he could rationalize a falsehood for the greater good, in his mind anyway. But I am not privy to his thoughts.

Read Rudo Ensayo very carefully, you will see how far outright deceit went within the church community during the Colonial Spanish time period

 

[Blindbowman]

Read Rudo Ensayo very carefully, you will see how far outright deceit went within the church community during the Colonial Spanish time period

I got to say I fully agree with you ,this was early in the game of north America and gold and silver and jewels were there for the greedy and a lot of people made their family wealth in those days ...but at what cost . here we see a rare chance to look back in time at a large Zuni site with a mass of information that passes threw the Zuni and the Aztec and many other tribes as well as 3 4 thousand years of evidence of historical value ...yes I could have just made find and left , but you have to stop and take a look at what this site is ...!we are talking about the birth place of Montezuma..!

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Four bells inscribed TAYOPA. ?Weight 727 lbs.

One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 285 lbs.

One bell inscribed PIEDAD. ?Weight 125 ?lbs.

These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Rverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.

Thanks for this. Lot of catching up to do. You have photos of your Zuni village? Not asking you to post them necessarily.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Read Rudo Ensayo very carefully, you will see how far outright deceit went within the church community during the Colonial Spanish time period

I know the Spanish were often brutal with Indians.
If you are dealing with "savages", I wouldn't be too surprised by what the Jesuits might do. Not read up on this enough to judge the common priests. But it would be interesting to see how men of God cleared their conscience.
Even if we look at those times without placing our context on them, it is hard to grasp how they could treat people so when they are in your sight.

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to derail the discussion, but in defense of the Spanish and their treatment of the natives - consider this; the Pima rebellion of 1751. In this case the Pimas deliberately went after the padres, and several actually fled to the supposedly brutal Spaniards and begged them to protect them from the wrath of the padres! Also several Jesuits complained of "their" Indians running away from the missions to go work for the Spanish and thus "learning every sin". One padre complained that even if he could find the runaway Indians, it was almost impossible to entice them to return to the missions! Remember these missions were run as a business, four days of each week were forced labor for the Indians and to refuse meant starving, beatings with the whip and or the stocks. An English visitor to a Franciscan mission in California in the 1770s was shocked at the brutal treatment of the Indians by the padres, and the idea of the poor Indian being forced to kiss the hand of the padre who ordered him to be whipped was particularly disturbing.

Blindbowman I take it then that you believe Coronado was mistaken in his visit and assault on Cibola? For those whom have not read Coronado's official report it is online (free) at:

https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/one/corona8.htm

Coronado was convinced he had found Cibola, and that it was a complete BS tale made up by friar Marcos de Niza. Are you saying that Coronado was wrong, and that the seven cities of Cibola are located in the Superstitions? Thanks in advance.

Coffee anyone?

 

[Blindbowman]

I know the Spanish were often brutal with Indians.
If you are dealing with "savages", I wouldn't be too surprised by what the Jesuits might do. Not read up on this enough to judge the common priests. But it would be interesting to see how men of God cleared their conscience.
Even if we look at those times without placing our context on them, it is hard to grasp how they could treat people so when they are in your sight.

bad choice of wording . there was no "savages " unless they were white men !