Legend vs Realitiy

[Blindbowman]

I don't under stand what made Oro mad . I was not happy about a few things but it had nothing to do with him .. I don't know . as long as he is safe I am good with it ,.. what ever I did I am not aware of it ...I was setting talking to my brother Rick and he just got a bloody noise for no reason . just setting at the table talking .. you and Oro are two good friends and I hope this games ends with all 3 of us enjoying the good days ....

 

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[Blindbowman]

in fact didn't we all start talking in 2000 just after my expedition 1 ..its been almost 20 years ,has it been that much fun ...lol

 

[cyzak]

I just recalled something: my brother was a Forward Observer in Vietnam. I remembered once he was talking about using trianglization to direct artillary. But I am guessing this required a map. Was this a simple version of whst you are talking about?
And can you navigate at night using your knowledge?

[video]https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/mapping-the-history-of-triangulation/[/video]Here is some info on triangulation.

 

[Oroblanco]

I don't under stand what made Oro mad . I was not happy about a few things but it had nothing to do with him .. I don't know . as long as he is safe I am good with it ,.. what ever I did I am not aware of it ...I was setting talking to my brother Rick and he just got a bloody noise for no reason . just setting at the table talking .. you and Oro are two good friends and I hope this games ends with all 3 of us enjoying the good days ....

I am not angry with you, thought I would let your thread alone as it is clear that you don't wish to discuss things that could be seen as argumentative. If I am ever upset with someone it will be 100% clear, not something that would have to be surmised. Please do continue, I won't start an argument with you.
Roy

 

[Blindbowman]

[video]https://thonyc.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/mapping-the-history-of-triangulation/[/video]Here is some info on triangulation.

this is a good example of what excepted science & mathematics is all about . we know for a fact Columbus used it and some records of it being used as far back as the early 1300's , but one guys writes a book and tells people what it is , and he becomes the founder of the skill and that's just not true in this case as in many others ... but I will say if you ok with that , then good luck to you ....if that type was the same as the older type then why did they not know how to read the old type ...?

 

[Blindbowman]

I am not angry with you, thought I would let your thread alone as it is clear that you don't wish to discuss things that could be seen as argumentative. If I am ever upset with someone it will be 100% clear, not something that would have to be surmised. Please do continue, I won't start an argument with you.
Roy

I have no idea what your talking about . but that's OK ... why would I want to come on a site and argue... that's just not productive ... I never needed to come back this site ....good luck ...

 

[cyzak]

People want to know were this type of navigation came from for land and sea this is were it was developed it is rarely discussed, goes back along ways in history just trying to promote the true origin.How many these days go out with there hand held GPS device and do triangulation off of it.Then one day no more satellites no more power all will be lost do to laziness and convenience.

 

[gollum]

I just recalled something: my brother was a Forward Observer in Vietnam. I remembered once he was talking about using trianglization to direct artillary. But I am guessing this required a map. Was this a simple version of whst you are talking about?
And can you navigate at night using your knowledge?

HP,

Kind of the same principle:

1. Military Triangulation is when you use (at least) three spotters/RDF's (Radio Direction Finders)/terrain features. It all depends on what you want to triangulate.

a. If you are looking for an enemy Communication Center, you deploy at least three RDF's in different directions. When the enemy keys the mic on their radio, each RDF Operator calls in their position and the direct true degree coordinate to the enemy transmission. HQ plots each RDF Position on a map, they then draw a line in the direction indicated. The spot where the three lines intersect is where the enemy antenna is. They call that GPS/Grid Coord to FA (Field Artillery) who then pounds the area with HE Rounds. That is what we USED to do. Nowadays, Artillery have radar and computers that spot an incoming artillery round as it leaves the barrel of an enemy artillery piece, performs necessary calculations and fires a counterbattery round. Our rounds hit the enemy artillery before they reach the top of their arc.

b. Spotters are the same principle as RDF's, except they see the enemy, find the degree line to the enemy. HQ finds the intersection and calls in an Air or Artillery Strike.

c. Terrain Features are used in Land Navigation. They can be used in many ways, but to use them for triangulation, you just pick out three or more very large landmarks (mountains, rivers, creeks, roads, etc). Use a compass/sun/Polaris to find the degree heading each feature is from you. Using that number, shoot a back azimuth to find your direction from each feature. Find each feature on your TOPO Map, and mark your direction from each feature. Draw a line in that direction on your TOPO. Where the lines intersect......there you are!


d. Spanish Treasure! Usually a burial hidden in triangulation is marked as a dot in the middle of a triangle. If you see that, then you have to find the three corner markers. Usually, the North marker is what is called a "compass marker". Typically a large flat rock that is supported by three basketball sized rocks. You can always see light underneath. From there you have to figure what other corner markers were used. When you find all three markers, you measure the distance between each two markers to find the exact middle of each arm of the triangle. Draw a straight line from each corner to the center of the opposite arm. The spot to dig is where the three lines intersect.

While its not rocket science, it is basic Geometry. Don't always think its going to be an Equilateral Triangle (equal sides). It could be a triangle of any shape (Isosceles, Acute, Right, Scalene, or Obtuse).

Mike

 

[Al D]

People want to know were this type of navigation came from for land and sea this is were it was developed it is rarely discussed, goes back along ways in history just trying to promote the true origin.How many these days go out with there hand held GPS device and do triangulation off of it.Then one day no more satellites no more power all will be lost do to laziness and convenience.

You only need four things for this, a reference, like true north or magnetic north, two land marks and the bearing angle between them, no distance or scale is required

 

[gollum]

People want to know were this type of navigation came from for land and sea this is were it was developed it is rarely discussed, goes back along ways in history just trying to promote the true origin.How many these days go out with there hand held GPS device and do triangulation off of it.Then one day no more satellites no more power all will be lost do to laziness and convenience.

Cyzak,

I always warn everybody that intends to go to the REAL desert or desert mountains (Superstitions), that they should NEVER solely rely on Digital GPS. At temps above 120-125 degrees the LCD Screen of the display can fail to form crystals and just looks like a big bruise. The Supers can reach 140 degrees when Phoenix is in the one hundred teens. If you don't know the trails, can't land navigate, and don't have a good TOPO Map (because you own a $500 GPS), you could die.

As I used to say on my old website....The desert heat and lack of water have killed many thousands of times the number of people killed by Spanish Death Traps and Black Legion Warriors. Being lost in the mountains when its 140 degrees and there is no shade is not how you want to find yourself!

Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

you all bring up some good points and bad .. Gollum has most of correct . the Spanish did it one the Portuguese did a different way . thus land vs sea .. . the Portuguese type developed from one type to a higher level . bring in the basic 3 line fix and then used symbolisms and geometric shapes ,you all have to remember this did not happen over night .. I can trace it back to the early 1300's and it was still known by some as late and the early 1800's .. but there were a lot of different types of this and from person to the next it would depend on were he learn it and from who his teacher had learned it .. but all this is after the fact . Waltz him self never needed the stones or the map .. he used his gun as his translator ..I don't know about all of you guys but as of late I have this over all in sight as to what took place and how the time lines fit correctly together ,,, I told my self when I heard about houses covered in gold ,that was some well cooked BS ...but the source of the LDM vane prove me wrong ... its amazing but its possible .. one day I am looking at stone from old hand made signal room houses and the next I am looking at a amazing volcanic blow out that could only be 1 of a 10,000,000,000 events that could event do what was stated it did ...as far as I can state the facts .. the LDM was not the source of the gold in the vane , it was not the mother load of that vane ... its dangerous and risking ones life is with out a doubt going to happen to a few ...this is going to separate the boys from men .. and that's a fact ! this will ether make millionaires or make them very dead .

 

[cyzak]

HP,

Kind of the same principle:

1. Military Triangulation is when you use (at least) three spotters/RDF's (Radio Direction Finders)/terrain features. It all depends on what you want to triangulate.

a. If you are looking for an enemy Communication Center, you deploy at least three RDF's in different directions. When the enemy keys the mic on their radio, each RDF Operator calls in their position and the direct true degree coordinate to the enemy transmission. HQ plots each RDF Position on a map, they then draw a line in the direction indicated. The spot where the three lines intersect is where the enemy antenna is. They call that GPS/Grid Coord to FA (Field Artillery) who then pounds the area with HE Rounds. That is what we USED to do. Nowadays, Artillery have radar and computers that spot an incoming artillery round as it leaves the barrel of an enemy artillery piece, performs necessary calculations and fires a counterbattery round. Our rounds hit the enemy artillery before they reach the top of their arc.

b. Spotters are the same principle as RDF's, except they see the enemy, find the degree line to the enemy. HQ finds the intersection and calls in an Air or Artillery Strike.

c. Terrain Features are used in Land Navigation. They can be used in many ways, but to use them for triangulation, you just pick out three or more very large landmarks (mountains, rivers, creeks, roads, etc). Use a compass/sun/Polaris to find the degree heading each feature is from you. Using that number, shoot a back azimuth to find your direction from each feature. Find each feature on your TOPO Map, and mark your direction from each feature. Draw a line in that direction on your TOPO. Where the lines intersect......there you are!


d. Spanish Treasure! Usually a burial hidden in triangulation is marked as a dot in the middle of a triangle. If you see that, then you have to find the three corner markers. Usually, the North marker is what is called a "compass marker". Typically a large flat rock that is supported by three basketball sized rocks. You can always see light underneath. From there you have to figure what other corner markers were used. When you find all three markers, you measure the distance between each two markers to find the exact middle of each arm of the triangle. Draw a straight line from each corner to the center of the opposite arm. The spot to dig is where the three lines intersect.

While its not rocket science, it is basic Geometry. Don't always think its going to be an Equilateral Triangle (equal sides). It could be a triangle of any shape (Isosceles, Acute, Right, Scalene, or Obtuse).

Mike

Thank you Gollum for the excellent information.

 

[Blindbowman]

Thank you Gollum for the excellent information.

very true good information but I think the confusion about the older type is the symbolism see how even triangle is used as a peak then a V is used as a open ended mountain like miners needle the base is at two ends the circle shows a mountain with a open base . and a circle within a circle shows a mountain with in a mountain ,, and weaver's needle is only a dot and stands for a signal peak mountain with a closed base ...some sea fairing captains took it to the next level and some beyond that as their skill were refine they used more and more symbolism and used it to code their maps and patterns ..

 

[Blindbowman]

if you under stand what I have been saying you will know that they found ore in 18 mines but they were still looking for the mother load and did not think Waltz pit mine was anything more then number 18 , from what I see not all the mines were gold and great profit some faded out fast and others were big profit mines and those are what he coded so they could not be found with out his showing them where to look ...

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Cyzak,

I always warn everybody that intends to go to the REAL desert or desert mountains (Superstitions), that they should NEVER solely rely on Digital GPS. At temps above 120-125 degrees the LCD Screen of the display can fail to form crystals and just looks like a big bruise. The Supers can reach 140 degrees when Phoenix is in the one hundred teens. If you don't know the trails, can't land navigate, and don't have a good TOPO Map (because you own a $500 GPS), you could die.

As I used to say on my old website....The desert heat and lack of water have killed many thousands of times the number of people killed by Spanish Death Traps and Black Legion Warriors. Being lost in the mountains when its 140 degrees and there is no shade is not how you want to find yourself!

Mike

Thanks for the excellent info. You too, Cyzak and Alan.
Fascinating stuff.
So Waltz would have been navigating according to the tools available at the time. Wonder what map he would have been working with to start out. Not sure if he had anything like a modern TOPO.
Also what is the earliest provable clues he provided to the location of LDM?
Seriously, has anyone ever provided a photo of a Spanish Death Trap. I can imagine a thoughtless person bringing rocks down on their head just by accident but if you want to hide something just hide it.
I am curious about water out there in terms of survival. Are there springs, cactus. The Apache could survive apparently.
Bowman gots me thinking for sure.

 

[Al D]

Thanks for the excellent info. You too, Cyzak and Alan.
Fascinating stuff.
So Waltz would have been navigating according to the tools available at the time. Wonder what map he would have been working with to start out. Not sure if he had anything like a modern TOPO.
Also what is the earliest provable clues he provided to the location of LDM?
Seriously, has anyone ever provided a photo of a Spanish Death Trap. I can imagine a thoughtless person bringing rocks down on their head just by accident but if you want to hide something just hide it.
I am curious about water out there in terms of survival. Are there springs, cactus. The Apache could survive apparently.
Bowman gots me thinking for sure.

I don’t think Waltz needed a map, he just memorized certain landmarks, as an example, his clue “if you reach three red hills, you’ve gone too far” is indicative of navigation based strictly on landmarks, as for Spanish death traps, there is a description of one in the book “The Killer Mountains”

 

[gollum]

I don’t think Waltz needed a map, he just memorized certain landmarks, as an example, his clue “if you reach three red hills, you’ve gone too far” is indicative of navigation based strictly on landmarks, as for Spanish death traps, there is a description of one in the book “The Killer Mountains”

That book is mostly BS.

When I get home, I will post a pic and description of an actual Spanish/Mexican Death Trap found in Mexico several years ago.

Mike

 

[Real of Tayopa]

BBb, Cibola is located in Sinaloa,Mexico. The valle (valley) of the Conajaci. They painted their house with iron pyrites. hence appeared to be of
gold, they also have many symbols of American Buffalo (Cibalo) It is a national monument now, just as is Tayopa.

 

[Al D]

That book is mostly BS.

When I get home, I will post a pic and description of an actual Spanish/Mexican Death Trap found in Mexico several years ago.

Mike

Can’t be more BS than what is mostly on this thread haha

 

[Al D]

That book is mostly BS.

When I get home, I will post a pic and description of an actual Spanish/Mexican Death Trap found in Mexico several years ago.

Mike

Besides the story about the copperhead snake, which looks like a common bull snake in the photo, which parts are BS, specifically?