Lost Treasure Hunters in AZ

[Shortstack]

Well, 3 more people killed by the Big Lie.

While everyone is welcome to and encouraged to have their own opinions, statements like this show a profound ignorance of known facts.

No need to rehash all the evidence we now have in favor of the DLM being a legitimate lost mine. It is easy enough to find for anybody who bothers to look.
Best-Mike

The portion of your statement that I've highlighted is a very interesting contrast in itself. You claim a person is entitled; even encouraged to have their own opinions, THEN proceed to indicate that only those folks who hold the same opinion that YOU do are the well informed. That in itself is an ign0rant comment. I have lived in Arizone YEARS ago and researched that little tale. And I've discussed it with people who are far more informed on the subject than I and who are / were the top THers in the country; KVM included. Now, the common thread was the POSSIBILITY that the so called Dutchman found a cache of gold hidden by some unknown entities. Some folks think those entities were part of the Parallta (misspelled) operation. Some think that maybe he found some hidden gold cached by the Apaches after they discovered the whiteman's love of the metal and knew they could use it in trade, etc. The most agreed on bit of information was that the Dutchman did not find a MINE with a vein of gold, but a cache of the metal that he pretty well depleted before he croaked.

The "big lie" is the "mine" part.

 

[gollum]

Well, 3 more people killed by the Big Lie.

While everyone is welcome to and encouraged to have their own opinions, statements like this show a profound ignorance of known facts.

No need to rehash all the evidence we now have in favor of the DLM being a legitimate lost mine. It is easy enough to find for anybody who bothers to look.
Best-Mike

The portion of your statement that I've highlighted is a very interesting contrast in itself. You claim a person is entitled; even encouraged to have their own opinions, THEN proceed to indicate that only those folks who hold the same opinion that YOU do are the well informed. That in itself is an ign0rant comment. I have lived in Arizone YEARS ago and researched that little tale. And I've discussed it with people who are far more informed on the subject than I and who are / were the top THers in the country; KVM included. Now, the common thread was the POSSIBILITY that the so called Dutchman found a cache of gold hidden by some unknown entities. Some folks think those entities were part of the Parallta (misspelled) operation. Some think that maybe he found some hidden gold cached by the Apaches after they discovered the whiteman's love of the metal and knew they could use it in trade, etc. The most agreed on bit of information was that the Dutchman did not find a MINE with a vein of gold, but a cache of the metal that he pretty well depleted before he croaked.

The "big lie" is the "mine" part.

Shortstack,

My statements IN NO WAY contradicted themselves. While I believe that everybody should have their own opinions, opinions based on outdated and nonfactual information are worthless.

I don't know who the parties you refer to as "agreed", and where you lived makes no difference at all. I know the great majority of the current Dutch Hunters in Apache Junction, and they agree that the facts as known today clearly show that Jacob Waltz did indeed have a rich gold mine. From your statements it sounds like any research you did into the DLM was a long time ago. In the last twenty years there has been so much information that has come to light as some of the old timers have passed away and their research has been shared (Several individuals). Since the rise of the internet and the ease of getting information from previously almost impossible sources (Records of Waltz' gold shipments to San Francisco and records of the LARGE amounts of money he sent to his family in Germany), modern proton and electron testing equipment (dispelled the stories about Waltz high grading ore from the Vulture and every other known mine).

We have the words of Waltz himself to Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch. They were both personally interviewed by Jim Bark and Sims Ely.

Again, your lack of knowledge of the actual history of the Supers is astounding. Doctor Thorne who was shown a valley where gold ore was just laying on the surface, then Silverlock and Malm who found a valley (Massacre Grounds) where there was rich gold ore laying all over the surface. They collected it all and could NEVER find the source. No, the Peraltas never cached any of their gold. They were killed and their mules scattered by the Apache, spreading gold all over the Massacre Grounds.

This is way off topic, but any time you would like to compare your outdated research and current known published information, I would be happy to oblige. Even the former Attorney General of the State of Arizona (Bob Corbin) has never faltered in his belief that the Dutchman's Lost Mine is real.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Mrs Capen,

The Search and Rescue Folks would likely be the best source for the information you want.

Here is how to reach them.

Best-Mike

 

[Shortstack]

gollum,
All of this great information and rich finds and it STILL hasn't been found? Huuuummmm. Since you and the former Attorney General are convinced; good luck. Looks like you will need it.

 

[gollum]

First,

Here is the most current published information on the missing men:

http://tucsoncitizen.com/paranormal...re-hunters-lost-in-the-supersition-mountains/

Shorty,

Like I said, I would be more than happy to go point to point with any old info you may have.

Again, your knowledge of Superstition History lagging. Chuck Kenworthy came back to Los Angeles from the Supers with a trunkload of Bonanza Gold Ore in the mid 1990s. Not likely it was from the DLM, but maybe he found Waltz' big cache (which Waltz said was there), or one of the Peraltas' smaller mines. Chuck passed away, and the only person with that knowledge doesn't speak on the subject of Treasure Hunting (his son Charles).

Oh, and when you say KVM, do you mean Dean Miller? I'm sure if you knew the man then you know his real name (or maybe Deek Gladson).

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Jessie: that sounds like a marvelous project. Please post a picture every so often as you go along.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Shortstack]

gollum said, among other things,
.......and when you say KVM, do you mean Dean Miller? I'm sure if you knew the man then you know his real name (or maybe Deek Gladson).


What is this? A test? Of COURSE I'm talking about Dean Miller aka Deek Gladson aka Karl von Mueller, husband of Gladyce M. Deekson Miller; father of Tron, or Yankee Jake or whatever other nicknames his offspring may use. The reason I used "KVM" is because THAT is the moniker most enthusiasts know him by.
Now, what is your point? Are you saying KVM didn't know what he was talking about? Did Frank Fish? Did Apache Jim Wilson?

You say Kenworthy brought out a truckload of ore. How did he bring it out of the Superstitution? By mule train? Did The Duke get a cut? Just curious.

 

[gollum]

gollum said, among other things,
.......and when you say KVM, do you mean Dean Miller? I'm sure if you knew the man then you know his real name (or maybe Deek Gladson).


What is this? A test? Of COURSE I'm talking about Dean Miller aka Deek Gladson aka Karl von Mueller, husband of Gladyce M. Deekson Miller; father of Tron, or Yankee Jake or whatever other nicknames his offspring may use. The reason I used "KVM" is because THAT is the moniker most enthusiasts know him by.
Now, what is your point? Are you saying KVM didn't know what he was talking about? Did Frank Fish? Did Apache Jim Wilson?

You say Kenworthy brought out a truckload of ore. How did he bring it out of the Superstitution? By mule train? Did The Duke get a cut? Just curious.

Shorty,

RIF (Reading Is Fundamental). I wrote "TRUNKLOAD not TRUCKLOAD. Big difference.

Also, do I think KVM didn't know what he was talking about? No, I don't. Like I posted previously; outdated or opinions based on non factual evidence is worthless. KVM believed that Waltz cached away some ore he high graded from one of the big mines in the area. THAT is why I wrote that the testing Tom Glover had done on the matchbox ore (that came from the candlebox under Waltz' bed) was not even close to matching ore from any of the known mines. Scientific fact. Due to matrix minerals in ore bodies, NO TWO veins are the same. Testing was performed by Mass Spectrometer. KVM believed Waltz ore came from the Vulture Mine if I am not mistaken. That was one of the samples tested against the matchbox ore. One was endothermic quartz and one was mesothermal quartz.

Like I said before, I will go point to point against your old evidence.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

oh, and as far as I know John Wayne was not involved with Kenworthy in his land TH'ing (as far as I know). Most of JW involvement was with Catalina Island. I've actually been on the Goose a few times. It was long before I knew anything about he and Kenworthy.

........and how he got the gold out of the Supes, I have no idea. The only person who would know for certain is his son. Only know what it looked like and where it came from.When I read about KVM and Hardrock's adventures and what they thought, it sounded more like sour grapes than anything based on true research. Something along the lines of "I couldn't figure it out, so it must not be real."

Best-Mike

 

[WilliamBoyd]

Is there any evidence that the men stayed in the Superstitions?

Could they be possibly spending the time in Las Vegas or someplace similar?

 

[lastleg]

Mike:

I know you have extensive knowledge of the LDM. Is there a link or site that
shows a sample/s of native gold taken from the Supers? If so how similar is it
to Rich Hill or Bradshaw Mts gold? I'm asking because I have never seen any
close-ups of Superstition ore.

 

[gollum]

Is there any evidence that the men stayed in the Superstitions?

Could they be possibly spending the time in Las Vegas or someplace similar?

Their car was parked at First Water Trailhead.

They are in the Supers somewhere. Read the article I linked to yesterday.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Mike:

I know you have extensive knowledge of the LDM. Is there a link or site that
shows a sample/s of native gold taken from the Supers? If so how similar is it
to Rich Hill or Bradshaw Mts gold? I'm asking because I have never seen any
close-ups of Superstition ore.

The most famous piece of ore that came from under Waltz' Bed is called the "Matchbox Ore". This was a vein that Waltz described as about 18 inches wide and shot completely through with leaves and strings of solid gold. There was another vein of fine gold in grey rock that ran through the same funnel. The ore that was in the candlebox was worth about $4000 (more than three years salary for the average person of the day).

Here is a picture of it

Best-Mike

 

[lastleg]

Thanks, Mike. Hope those guys make it out alive.

 

[Shortstack]

Mikey:
You are truly correct. RIF (reading is fundamental). You wrote that Kenworthy brought out a TRUNKload of ore in the mid-1990s and I asked if The Duke got a cut. Your answer was that as far as you knew, John Wayne was not involved with Kenworthy's land hunts; just his Catalina Island projects. WELLLLLLLL. Since John Wayne DIED on June 11, 1979, I'm pretty sure that he did not get a cut of that project.

Details, Mr. gollum. Details.

 

[gollum]

Doesn't matter when he died. Kenworthy was a treasure hunter since the late 1960s, and John Wayne became one of his partners in 1975 with the Catalina Island deal. I will give you a link to the story:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,305087.0.html

........and yes, I know all about John Wayne. My grandmother did stunts in two movies with him in the late 1930s. After that, she became a HUGE John Wayne Fanatic. My grandparents raised me and all I watched as a kid were Westerns. HAHAHA One of my favorite movies was The Shootist (his last). Filmed it acting on one lung.

Nice way to skip the fact that one of your prime sources for thinking the DLM was bogus was proven COMPLETELY WRONG beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

But don't get me wrong. I think that KVM was one of the greatest cache hunters of all time. That is also true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

At the time he made his opinion known, it was just as valid as anybody else's, because we didn't have the ability to test the ore samples like we do today.

I firmly believe that if he were alive today, and had such easy access to all the information we have today, he would be of a whole different mindset.

Like I have said before (again) Opinions based on outdated and factually incorrect data are worthless.

Best-Mike

 

[Shortstack]

Mikey,
When you're watching some of those old western movies, keep an eye on the background and you'll see a lot of ancient and Spanish monuments. Watch John Wayne's movie, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, and you'll see one of the largest monument carvings you'll ever see. I just spotted it a couple of nights ago while watching the movie for about the 8th or 9th time. It was filmed in.................are you ready for this.........the Monument Valley.
KVM moved to his place in Segundo, Colorado to be nearer to the big ticket Spanish item he and a partner were closing in on when he died.
As I've already asked; with all of the new info and chemical analysis stuff that's supposedly been done; why hasn't it already been found---if it exists??

 

[gollum]

I've seen it more times than I can count, and I know exactly what you are talking about. Actually, Chuck Kenworthy shows it in his "Monuments" book.

Why hasn't it been found? That's a tough one! The answers are several and can be very long, but to try and keep it short;

1. Waltz did a great job of hiding it. He described how it was hidden, and said "A cowboy will never find my mine because you can't see it from horseback. A prospector will never find my mine (none of the vein is exposed). You could drive a wagon over my mine and never know it was there."

2. Most all of the original monuments were torn down by the old Dutch Hunters. They made notes about them, then ripped them apart. Only they knew where they were.

3. Many of the clues that we know of today are buIIshlt. They were made up to confuse other Dutch Hunters and send them in the wrong directions. Holmes even gave out some of his info leaving out select portions, so that if someone came to him asking about something, they would fall into his trap and give him a clue he didn't have before.

Likely as not, the person to find the DLM will be some doofus on a day hike will climb to the top of a ridge to get a better view and step on the one weak place in the cover and fall through. HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[Shortstack]

LOL, you're probably right about a stone rookie finding the "mine".

Kenworthy didn't have this particular monument in any of his books. The one I saw in the movie was a seriously LARGE sucker and nothing like he ever put in his books. This one was carved by some of the Ancients who were in the area a thousand years before the Spanish.

Since I became interested in the Ancients, I've spotted many of their monuments in the background of several older western movies. Especially those by Ford and Huston since they used the huge, wide open backdrops and panoramas. Now, every time I watch those old western movies, I concentrate too much on looking for those monuments so I end up missing the action. LOL I spotted a hell of a carving in the movie Lawman starring Burt Lancaster.

I'm thinking taking some screenshots off of those movies and posting them on the appropriate section of the forum.