LRL Finally Resolved - TFIC

[Carl-NC]

Really, I have not seen any indication that anyone here who claims to know electronics has a clue about anything that is used in treasure hunting.

Need to look a little bit closer, eh? Ya might be surprised.

 

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[aarthrj3811]

~rwizard~

my own observations about your articles of faith.

"Thus the logical basis of Contagious Magic, like that of Homoeopathic Magic,

It is certainly true, that divining (the putative progenitor of LRL), like other forms of magic, is a very old practice. Curses, hexes, calling of demons, and even human sacrifice, also have a rich and long lived history.

Those who have studied behavioral psychology will see

Of course, those who sell LRL equipment would at least appear to be followers of another dogma, that of bank robber Willie Sutton, who explained that he robbed banks, "because that's where the money is".

So, I have a very simple request of the LRL believers out there - a "challenge" for those who prefer that more inflammatory didactic. Using something approximating correct grammar and spelling, and structured, rational logic, please give me a brief, coherent, and dispositive hypothesis for the function of LRL and your devices.

Specifically, you should explain what it is you are sensing, and how you are sensing it. This should include an explanation of the mechanism and/or circuitry of any devices you feel are a good example of a reliable and effective device.

For the LRL convicted, I have little doubt that the words of Omar Khayyám will apply:

(NB: Rants, invectives, taunting, and verbal vitriol are the refuge of those with no facts on their side, and no substantive point to be made. Such replies will likely go unanswered, at least by me. They will serve as a hollow testament to the true nature of LRL, a religion of dubious merit.)

It seems to me to be an open thread where logic or lack of logic is the main topic.
You and Carl may want to read the rest of the site and see just how many problems the conventional metal detector still has..

 

[EE THr]

Art---

This thread is what it is. Read the topic title and the original post. That's what it is.

Lot's of things seem to you to be other than what everyone else sees and experiences. That's your problem, not mine. Deal with it.

 

[rwizard]

It seems to me to be an open thread where logic or lack of logic is the main topic.
You and Carl may want to read the rest of the site and see just how many problems the conventional metal detector still has..

If you were paying close attention, you might have noticed my earlier comments,

"If someone asked me how my metal detectors or my magnetometer operated, and why I thought that made them useful for finding stuff, I'd certainly answer the questions. If they said they didn't believe these devices worked, I'd do my best to make a good case for their utility. I'd also be happy to discuss their limitations, which they certainly have."

One of the differences between you and I is that I examine everything critically, including my own interests and beliefs. If, at any point, I find them wanting, they are cast aside without hesitation. Believing, as I do, that "the greatest good of a man is daily to converse about virtue, and all that concerning which you hear me examining myself and others, and that the life which is unexamined is not worth living" - Plato, Apology, 37e-38a

Should you be able to make a cogent case that metal detectors are not functional devices, and instead are cobbled together from claptrap in the same manner as the mystical LRL is, I will be more than happy to go about redeeming my past sins, and renouncing the technology. But you see, metal detectors are a technology. They have well defined characteristics, good and bad, and a discernible method of action - supported by an observable and testable hypothesis.

All I have asked for is that someone provide me with the same things for LRLs. Instead, I have been served an unending diet of dissembling obfuscation, and occasional vague references, reminiscent of alchemists lore drawn from the middle ages. The Klan of Kentucky Kache and friends have behaved as naught but fisting hounds, bound up from within by their dinners, filled with wind, and expectorating their opinions from the orifice in opposition. This circular dance does little, except to illuminate the shallow moorings of their positions.

 

[aarthrj3811]

~rwizard~

"If someone asked me how my metal detectors or my magnetometer operated, and why I thought that made them useful for finding stuff, I'd certainly answer the questions. If they said they didn't believe these devices worked, I'd do my best to make a good case for their utility. I'd also be happy to discuss their limitations, which they certainly have."

I have told you that the 7 LRL’s and MFD’s that I have used all found gold..They was useful in locating and recovering gold..We have told all the skeptics many times is all they have to do is make arrangements to personally use one to prove that they do just that...1.000’s of treasure hunters use these devices and were informed consumers before their purchase.

All I have asked for is that someone provide me with the same things for LRLs. Instead, I have been served an unending diet of dissembling obfuscation, and occasional vague references, reminiscent of alchemists lore drawn from the middle ages. The Klan of Kentucky Kache and friends have behaved as naught but fisting hounds, bound up from within by their dinners, filled with wind, and expectorating their opinions from the orifice in opposition. This circular dance does little, except to illuminate the shallow moorings of their positions.

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...Art

 

[rwizard]

I have told you that the 7 LRL’s and MFD’s that I have used all found gold..They was useful in locating and recovering gold..We have told all the skeptics many times is all they have to do is make arrangements to personally use one to prove that they do just that...1.000’s of treasure hunters use these devices and were informed consumers before their purchase.
<snip>

You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar...Art

Art, you may be right, and I am sorry if my frustration at the lack of substance in this thread has made me a little churlish. But I seek a substantive response, and vinegar is a most effective anodyne for infestations of Drosophila. If my bait is too mordant, I ask your indulgence and forgiveness.

You seem to indicate you might be willing to have a substantive dialog, something I would genuinely welcome. Is my perception correct? I do not know about you, but I see no point in endless and empty bickering.

I should make clear that I hold sellers and users of LRL apart in my mind. Sellers are held to a different, and higher standard than users. Fair or unfair, this is my view.

Your offer to provide an opportunity to use a device is intriguing, and something I will give serious consideration. But I would like to discuss a few things about LRLs first. If you will be direct, serious and respectful about addressing the subject, then I promise to respond in kind.

Is this acceptable to you?

 

[aarthrj3811]

Hey rwizard...I don’t know much about the electronics inside these black boxes..I just use the ones I own...I have always been willing to discuss these devices...I will give it a try...Art

 

[rwizard]

Hey rwizard...I don’t know much about the electronics inside these black boxes..I just use the ones I own...I have always been willing to discuss these devices...I will give it a try...Art

That sounds reasonable. Not everyone who drives a car knows how they work either. Fair enough. As we go forward, I may ask some hard questions. Please don't be offended. I'm just probing the facts, not picking on you. Feel free to let me know if you think I am out of line.

When you say that you have found gold with your LRL, I accept that. One of the things worth exploring is whether the LRL made a meaningful contribution to the amount of finds, and the difficulty you would have had making those finds without an LRL. I mention this because I want to give you time to think about that. Right now I just want to ask some more basic questions.

First, just so I understand your point of view, are you strictly a user of LRLs, or do you derive any income from their manufacture or sale?

(In the interest of fairness, since I am asking you what may seem like a personal question, I will disclose to you that I am strictly a user of metal detectors and magnetometers, and have no affiliation with anyone in the business. I own a White's V3i (purchased locally), and a Discovery TF-900 (purchased here from a member). I built my own magnetometer.)

Assuming you are a user, what explanation did the seller give you as to how the device(s) work(s)? Do you accept that explanation? If not, how do you think it might work?

In general, and without revealing any personal tricks you prefer to keep to yourself, how do you go about finding something with your device(s)?

Have you ever looked at the inside of your device(s)? If so, what did you see?

I think these questions will give us a place to start. We can discuss your answers and try to learn from each other as we go. Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have. No reason we can't have fun with this, it beats mud slinging.

I am on and off the computer, as I am in the middle of a project. If I don't respond as promptly as I should, it is because I am tied up elsewhere, and not because I mean to ignore you. I look forward to reading your reply.

 

[aarthrj3811]

That sounds reasonable. Not everyone who drives a car knows how they work either. Fair enough. As we go forward, I may ask some hard questions. Please don't be offended. I'm just probing the facts, not picking on you. Feel free to let me know if you think I am out of line.

When you say that you have found gold with your LRL, I accept that. One of the things worth exploring is whether the LRL made a meaningful contribution to the amount of finds, and the difficulty you would have had making those finds without an LRL. I mention this because I want to give you time to think about that. Right now I just want to ask some more basic questions.

Just ask any gold prospector how hard it is to find gold. I seek mostly placer gold which are usually just small flakes spread out over the area. After you have dug the spot the material still has to be processed using a gold pan, spinning wheel or a sluice to get it out. I search mostly areas around streams or rivers because gold is moved mostly by streams and rivers at times of high water. Besides that I enjoy being around small streams in the Mountains...Yes I use everything I know about how gold was hidden by mother nature to put me in the area.

I have Used a magnetometer and found them to be clumsy and very hard to use in brushy and rocky conditions. I also own a TF-900 and find that it is fairly good at verifying deep caches of gold that man has buried. I find no use for Conventional Metal Detectors because of their limited depth and the tendency to find pull tabs when seeking placer gold...

Without the use of a LR or MFD I would not have recovered very much gold without setting up an expensive wash plant and using a caterpillar at each of the sites I visited. Also the rules and regulations involved in this kind of mining are very expensive to follow in California.
The LRL’s and MFD’s allow me to recover gold in places where there is not enough gold to warrant the use of commercial type equipment.

First, just so I understand your point of view, are you strictly a user of LRLs, or do you derive any income from their manufacture or sale?

The last thing I bought from any manufacturer was my Ranger Tell in @2005..And yes I was able to negotiate a deal where they shipped me a unit with no money up front to try...It worked for me and then I paid the full price for the unit. I have never derive any income from any manufacturer or the sale of any device

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning: Sheeesh I leave for a few months and when I return the identical pros and cons are still being posted sigh.

K to the point Rwizard.

A) I have to ask your definition of fraud.

Is it when I sell you some thing that when you use it, you have increased success in your project, regardless if it works as conventional mechanical analysis requires.

Is my selling a psychological enhancer whch works in many cases, a fraud ?

B) Can you show me just why such an unit 'cannot' be built?

HI Carl missed you.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Saturna]

(A) This is just a play on semantics. If you desire, as an example, you can buy all the 'male enhancers' you want.


(B) I can show such a unit 'cannot' be built the very same way I know that you cannot fly like a bird by flapping your arms. You can't, can you ?
How did I know that, yet I've never seen you try ?

 

[aarthrj3811]

Assuming you are a user, what explanation did the seller give you as to how the device(s) work(s)? Do you accept that explanation? If not, how do you think it might work?

The first one I purchased was a gold only LRL..I was told the it worked by using resonating response..There is still much debate about this method..I was able to locate a gold nugget buried in his back yard so I purchased it for @$252 and on the way home I recovered enough gold to pay for it. This unit had a range of ¾ miles and a depth if 40 feet.

After trying to search a 16 mile square area on and off for 2 summers in the hot dessert I decided I needed more range so I returned to Bob and bought a MFD from him. With the 8 mile range I recovered all the gold in that 16 mile area the next summer.

The third one was a gold and silver unit I bought for one project I was working on..I needed a unit that would work in a backpack or a fanny pack and had to use a single 4 inch rod. I traveled to Oregon and tested the unit and it would do just that.

Then I had a stroke and soon found that the rods would not respond properly for me. That is when I got a Ranger Tell...I soon found that it would give me more information about the target than any rod type device could..By the way..I have been able to over come the rod problem.

In general, and without revealing any personal tricks you prefer to keep to yourself, how do you go about finding something with your device(s)?

The first thing I do is Map Dowse the area where I want to look. I then go to the area and see if I can get a signal..I usually find a road that runs in a North-South or East-West direction near the spot and use my Dowsing Skills from a moving vehicle...I then stop and use my LRL to get GPS readings to put on a map and gather the information of distance, depth and what is there. I may do this for 3 or 4 spots in a single day. I then come home and put all the GPS readings on maps and triangulate the exact spot..I can then find the easiest way to get to the target using Google Earth maps...the tilt feature is a real help to me....

I guess I should explain the difference between GPS and Compass readings..GPS readings are for true North and compass readings are for the location of the Magnetic North..they are 100’s of miles between them and the Magnetic North pole is rapidly moving to the east.

When I do the actual locating I always work off a North-South or East-West line...I walk and mark spots for as much as a mile checking each mark for distance, depth and what is there. When I find the one I am looking for I walk a little more and turn 90 degrees and move that way until I find the other line to the target. I then move a little ways and make another 90 degree turn and move until I find a the line again. I then continue for 3 or 4 steps and turn 90 degrees again. If I have walked straight I now know I am within 3 or 4 sides of the target. This is a simple box type search..

Have you ever looked at the inside of your device(s)? If so, what did you see?

I have looked in one of the Yocum devices to repair a loose antenna lead..It was neat and properly made..I coud see many little electronic devices with adjustment screws stick out of the glue or whatever it was..Not at all like the photo’s on Carl’s site...The Si-go was open one time to take a photo..the Ranger Tell was opened one time as I thought I had a problem..Nothing was wrong..I had not given the solar unit enough light and the battery was low

I think these questions will give us a place to start. We can discuss your answers and try to learn from each other as we go. Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have. No reason we can't have fun with this, it beats mud slinging.

It sure does and someone may learn something..

By the way...One Yocum unit is still in use in Alaska and the other is being used in Oregon..the si-go and a Wakie-Talkie LRL go with me every time I go out..If you have every driven 2 !/2 hours to find that your battery had lost its charge or you slip on a flat rock and break your primary unit you know why I take a spare..Art

 

[Kevo_DFX]

Is it when I sell you some thing that when you use it, you have increased success in your project, regardless if it works as conventional mechanical analysis requires.

I'd call that a placebo. If I sold sugar pills to someone who was a terminally ill cancer patient, but it made them FEEL better, should I be prosecuted?

Can you show me just why such an unit 'cannot' be built?

As has been stated many times, you cannot prove a negative. Can you prove that I am not being romanced by Salma Hayek?

- Kevo

 

[aarthrj3811]

~Kevo_DFX~

As has been stated many times, you cannot prove a negative.

Are LRL’s and MFD’s a negative? Can you touch and see them?...Can you not use them?...Have you not read the 67 positive testimonials and the hundreds of testimonials on the internet? I see negative comments made by skeptics..so your are the ones that are negative...So who decides if LRL's and MFD's are a negative?...Art

 

[Kevo_DFX]

~Kevo_DFX~

As has been stated many times, you cannot prove a negative.

Are LRL’s and MFD’s a negative? Can you touch and see them?...Can you not use them?...Have you not read the 67 positive testimonials and the hundreds of testimonials on the internet? I see negative comments made by skeptics..so your are the ones that are negative...So who decides if LRL's and MFD's are a negative?...Art

Art, please follow the conversation if you intend on being a part of it. I was responding specifically to RdTTT's comment about can Saturna prove something cannot be. That is why I quoted the specific comment I was referring to. Taking it out of context and adding mythical numbers to the conversation does nothing to advance dialogue, though I think that is your probably your intent anyways.

Cheers,
Kevo

 

[aarthrj3811]

I see clearly...You can not answer the questions..

As has been stated many times, you cannot prove a negative. Can you prove that I am not being romanced by Salma Hayek?

No I can not prove if you are not being romanced by Salma Hayek,,,Art

 

[Kevo_DFX]

~Kevo_DFX~

As has been stated many times, you cannot prove a negative.

Are LRL’s and MFD’s a negative? Can you touch and see them?...Can you not use them?...Have you not read the 67 positive testimonials and the hundreds of testimonials on the internet? I see negative comments made by skeptics..so your are the ones that are negative...So who decides if LRL's and MFD's are a negative?...Art

Art,

When using the word negative, I was simply stating that it is impossible to prove something DOESN'T exist.

But, since you were kind enough to answer my question, I will answer yours:

1. There are objects that are sold under the name of LRL's and MFD's.
2. Yes, you can touch and see those objects.
3. Yes, they are yours to manipulate in whatever way you please once you have acquired one.
4. Yes, I have read testimonials on the internet, though I don't know how many.
5. I said nothing about negative COMMENTS. You are taking the word out of context.

Now that I have answered your questions, that have nothing at all to do with what I was talking about, can you tell me what exactly is the point of all this?

- Kevo

 

[EE THr]

RDT---

Is my selling a psychological enhancer which works in many cases, a fraud ?

Unless you advertise it as exactly that---yes, it is fraud.


If you sell someone a sugar pill that is supposed to make a person drive a car better, then it might give some people more self-confidence, and they might actually drive better.

But what if there are people who tried to learn to drive, and it didn't work out very well, so they buy your pills, then crash their car? Probably they just needed driving lessons from a patient instructor.

Or maybe they misunderstood some function of the car, like how the brake pedal worked. So they go zooming off, now with lots of confidence, but still don't know which pedal to press in order to stop the car?

And what if then, as an excuse, you tell them that the only problem was that they weren't in the right frame of mind at the time, to allow their body to biometrically control the car, and they need to prepare mentally in order to "get into the zone," and that when they have done that, everything will be alright?

That angle is just way wrong, no matter how you slice it.

 

[rwizard]

Art,

First I want to say that I get the sense you are a pretty nice guy. I suspect I would be proud to call you a friend, and sit down to break bread with you. I also want you to know that when people like me get on here and say negative things about LRL, it isn't you we are trying to go after. We believe we have a good basis for our criticisms, and we believe that good people, people like yourself, are being cheated. I would guess that you don't like to see decent people cheated any more than we do, and I suspect if you thought you saw that happening, you would want to do something about it, just like we do. I do understand that you do not feel cheated, and that you believe LRL works. So let's get back to talking about LRL.

Assuming you are a user, what explanation did the seller give you as to how the device(s) work(s)? Do you accept that explanation? If not, how do you think it might work?

The first one I purchased was a gold only LRL..I was told the it worked by using resonating response..There is still much debate about this method..I was able to locate a gold nugget buried in his back yard so I purchased it for @$252 and on the way home I recovered enough gold to pay for it. This unit had a range of ¾ miles and a depth if 40 feet.

Art, that sounds impressive, but can you explain to me what resonating is, and anything you might know about how it is supposed to work? Offhand, it sounds like what was once called sympathetic magic. Perhaps it would be appropriate to ask if you believe that there are magical forces at work in the world? I know some people do, I just wondered if you place yourself in that group. It makes a difference in the conversation.

A little quick math shows that at a depth of 40 feet, and a distance of .75 miles, the signal has to pass through slightly more than 3960 feet of earth. I wonder why, then, if you happened to be very close to being over a nugget, it wouldn't work to a depth on 3960 feet? This seems like an inconsistency in how the device operates.

In general, and without revealing any personal tricks you prefer to keep to yourself, how do you go about finding something with your device(s)?

The first thing I do is Map Dowse the area where I want to look.

I guess I should explain the difference between GPS and Compass readings..GPS readings are for true North and compass readings are for the location of the Magnetic North..they are 100’s of miles between them and the Magnetic North pole is rapidly moving to the east.

Can you explain how map dowsing is done? Do you use any tools, or do you do this on your own?

As someone who has done a lot of ocean navigating, and a little flying (my wife is the pilot in the family) I am familiar with compass headings. The formula for going from true north to a compass reading is TVMDC. Taking the True heading you apply the Variation, this gives you a Magnetic heading, you then apply Deviation, which gives you the Compass reading. So you could derive the compass heading from your GPS if you want, or you can go the other way, CDMVT, and derive true north from your compass. Just a bit of trivia for you, you probably already know this anyway.

Have you ever looked at the inside of your device(s)? If so, what did you see?

I have looked in one of the Yocum devices to repair a loose antenna lead..It was neat and properly made..I coud see many little electronic devices

Do you think those electronic parts are contributing to the function of your device? Has anyone said what their purpose is? Can you read part numbers on the devices, or were they painted over?

I appreciate your time in having this conversation with me Art, and I look forward to your next reply.

 

[aarthrj3811]

~Kevo_DFX`

But, since you were kind enough to answer my question, I will answer yours:

1. There are objects that are sold under the name of LRL's and MFD's.
2. Yes, you can touch and see those objects.
3. Yes, they are yours to manipulate in whatever way you please once you have acquired one.
4. Yes, I have read testimonials on the internet, though I don't know how many.
5. I said nothing about negative COMMENTS. You are taking the word out of context.
Re: LRL Finally Resolved - TFIC

Reply To This Topic #94 Posted Today at 07:33:47 AM
Good morning: Sheeesh I leave for a few months and when I return the identical pros and cons are still being posted sigh.

K to the point Rwizard.

A) I have to ask your definition of fraud.

Is it when I sell you some thing that when you use it, you have increased success in your project, regardless if it works as conventional mechanical analysis requires.

Is my selling a psychological enhancer whch works in many cases, a fraud ?

B) Can you show me just why such an unit 'cannot' be built?

HI Carl missed you.

Don Jose de La Mancha
Re: LRL Finally Resolved - TFIC
Reply To This Topic #97 Posted Today at 08:42:41 AM
Quote from: Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp on Today at 07:33:47 AM
Can you show me just why such an unit 'cannot' be built?

As has been stated many times, you cannot prove a negative. Can you prove that I am not being romanced by Salma Hayek?

It seems clear that you were referring to LRL’s..I simple ask you what is negative about LRL’s and thank you for correcting your position...They are positive so the skeptics are on the negative side so they are the ones that are required to provide proof ..Art